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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Rifles
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vegard_dino
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Reged: 05/03/09
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9.3*53R
      #193484 - 10/11/11 04:25 AM



Hello all.

Well, these is a old German caliber. Anyone who use it?
What was the original load?
Any brass around today? The caliber is in a old combi gun, great looking. But, if there is no brass around, hard to take it out hunting.

Best
vegard_dino

--------------------
Cheers all, Vegard_dino

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Sville
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Re: 9.3*53R [Re: vegard_dino]
      #193485 - 10/11/11 04:47 AM

I think you can buy brass from Sako. 9,3x53R Finnish. /Staffan

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vegard_dino
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Re: 9.3*53R [Re: Sville]
      #193492 - 10/11/11 05:37 AM



Thanks for the info.
You know what bullet it was loaded with?

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Cheers all, Vegard_dino

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kuduae
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Re: 9.3*53R [Re: vegard_dino]
      #193494 - 10/11/11 06:09 AM

Vegard, caution: There are two entirely different cartridges named 9.3x53R, none of them German and not interchangeable:
The 9.3x53 R Finnish. This is the cartridge Sville is referring to. Though occasionally still available from SAKO, it is rarely encountered outside Finland.
As you live in Switzerland, the combination gun you found is more likely chambered for the 9.3x53 M26 Swiss load. Several combination guns and single-shot rifles were made in Germany for the Swiss market. I own an o/U by Schmidt & Habermann, Suhl. I got a die set from CH almost immediately. Cases are a problem here: I make mine from S&B 7.62x54R Russian cases, but 9.3x53R Finn cases may be even better. For use in my chamber, I have to thin the rim slightly. Then the cases have to be fireformed to be blown out to the "improved"shape of the Swiss number. These make usable "Swiss" cases, though 0.15mm small at the base.
You may find some info on both cartridges in these threads:

http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=150441&page=0&fpart=1&vc=1

http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=171575&an=0&page=3#Post171575

--------------------
German foresters: We like sustainability! For merely 300 years by 2013.

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vegard_dino
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Re: 9.3*53R [Re: kuduae]
      #193496 - 10/11/11 06:43 AM



Thanks for the links and information.
You also take your out hunting?

A nice gun you have, I am sure of.

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Cheers all, Vegard_dino

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Schauckis
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Re: 9.3*53R [Re: vegard_dino]
      #193591 - 11/11/11 08:00 AM

I have a vague recollection reading about a Russian version of the 9,3x53R, too. This is not the same as the Finnish version; seldom seem today but still loaded by Sako.

The bullet Sako used was 350grs. I think it was the Hammerhead, although I cannot vouch for this.
The Gamehead, I believe, is a later load: ammo at Lahdeniemi (scroll almost all the way down).

The 9,3x53R Finnish was a development in the 50's due to the then-legislation which prohibited the use of military ammo, i.e. 7,62x53R, by civilians; and requiring a minimum of 8mm bullet for moose hunt.
Thus, the military case was necked up to accept the common German 8mm (Mauser) and 9,3mm bullets.
The 8,2x53R is still often seen today but the 9,3mm I have seen seldom, indeed. The 9,3x53R was nicknamed "hirvensurma", 'death of moose'.
Most commonly the military "Pystykorva" rifles were converted but also a large number of Winchester model 1895 lever action rifles were converted for both cartridges.

- Lars/Finland

--------------------
A.k.a. Bwana One-Shot

Edited by Schauckis (11/11/11 08:07 AM)

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Paatti
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Re: 9.3*53R [Re: Schauckis]
      #193637 - 12/11/11 03:29 AM

Quote:

The bullet Sako used was 350grs. I think it was the Hammerhead, although I cannot vouch for this.
The Gamehead, I believe, is a later load: ammo at Lahdeniemi (scroll almost all the way down).
- Lars/Finland


I doubt about that 350grs bullet on 9.3x53R Fin. That Gamehead (traditional soft point) is 256grs. I have ever seen factory loaded ammo with hammerhead on that caliber or 350grs 9.3 hammerhead.

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DarylS
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Re: 9.3*53R [Re: Paatti]
      #193652 - 12/11/11 04:13 PM

350 is VERY long in 9.3. The longest/heaviest available right now, is a custom bullet (here they are custom) - the Woodleigh, at 320gr.
232 gr. throught 286 would be normal, I'd think - just thinking out loud.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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lancaster
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Re: 9.3*53R [Re: DarylS]
      #193659 - 12/11/11 07:02 PM

thinking I know a little bit about this cartridge
Sako was wise enough to never change the original load. now semi obsolete and only in production on demand the case hold the original 16,6 gramm softpoint bullet from the 40s.


--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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Schauckis
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Re: 9.3*53R [Re: Paatti]
      #193671 - 13/11/11 12:23 AM

Quote:

I doubt about that 350grs bullet on 9.3x53R Fin. That Gamehead (traditional soft point) is 256grs. I have ever seen factory loaded ammo with hammerhead on that caliber or 350grs 9.3 hammerhead.



Ooopss!! Sorry, typo. Meant to say 250 (or 256 to be quite precise, of course.). My bad.

- Lars/Finland

--------------------
A.k.a. Bwana One-Shot

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kuduae
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Re: 9.3*53R [Re: Schauckis]
      #193685 - 13/11/11 07:51 AM

Schauckis, Paati, lancaster: IMHO it's useless to discuss the virtues and lackings of the Finnish 9.3x53R here, because the gun vegard dino has in mind is the same Schmidt & Habermann - ESHA o/u combination gun lancaster once posted, see here:
http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=171575&an=0&page=3#Post171575

Mr. Wenninger tries again to sell it through EGUN at an exaggerated price. This gun is not in 9.3x53R Finnish, but in 9.3x53R Swiss, an entirely different cartridge with other ballistics.

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fuhrmann
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Re: 9.3*53R [Re: kuduae]
      #193719 - 13/11/11 09:13 PM

Kuduae,

yes this reminds me, it was discussed a while ago and I wanted to send the original Swiss ballistics. Lancaster was very interested back then.
Here they are:




from an undated but probably post-WW II brochure, issued by "Eidg. Pulververwaltung Bern"

The same 13.1 g bullets were used for the Swiss 9.3x72R catridge, this was a strong load with muzzle velocity of 680 m/s, probably copying the German "Dornheim-Patrone".

What bullets and loads are you using now?

With the strong Swiss Franc, the asking price in Euro might be still quite attractive in Switzerland. I'm not sure if the extra shotgun barrels were included the last time?

Regards,
fuhrmann

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DarylS
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Re: 9.3*53R [Re: fuhrmann]
      #193749 - 14/11/11 03:34 AM

0-695; 25-670; 100-598; 150-554; 200-514; 300-442;

This is what I saw in the chart.

695mps I made as 2,273fps.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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lancaster
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Re: 9.3*53R [Re: DarylS]
      #194170 - 20/11/11 06:21 AM





--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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DarylS
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Re: 9.3*53R [Re: lancaster]
      #194186 - 20/11/11 10:14 AM

The 514 and 430 numbers on the boxes - is that the muzzle speed? What is that in fps?

If so, why did the chart give 675mps? What weight are those bullets?

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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kuduae
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Re: 9.3*53R [Re: DarylS]
      #194242 - 20/11/11 09:21 PM

Quote:

The 514 and 430 numbers on the boxes - is that the muzzle speed? What is that in fps?

If so, why did the chart give 675mps? What weight are those bullets?


The word above these numbers reads "Fabrikationsdatum" = date of manufacture, read lot number. The 9.3x53(R) Swiss cartridges were factory loaded with one bullet weight only: 13.1 gramm = 202 grains. MV from a 68cm = 26" barrel was given in another table as 695 m/s = 2280 fps, same for both the rimmed and rimless version.

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lancaster
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Re: 9.3*53R [Re: kuduae]
      #194252 - 20/11/11 10:02 PM

one wonder where the rifles are today. have you ever seen a K 31 for the 9,3x53?

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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DarylS
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Re: 9.3*53R [Re: lancaster]
      #194316 - 21/11/11 07:06 AM

TKs kuduae

202gr. at 2,280fps is a decent load, if a bit light for that size. Good dear/black bear round and would work for moose and elk in the bush.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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kuduae
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Re: 9.3*53R [Re: DarylS]
      #194323 - 21/11/11 08:16 AM

Daryl, when the Swiss introduced the 9.3x53R in the 1920s they had no domestic "big game" exxcept roe deer and a few chamois. As the use of scopes or peep sights for hunting was deemed unsporting and prohibited in most counties, the ballistics of the "Swiss load" of the 9.3x72R were entirely satisfactory. As a result of WW1 the supply of German and Austrian made break-open guns was uncertain at best. The Swiss-made Martini actions could not handle the long, straight 9.3x72R, so they packed the same ballistics in a shorter, bottlenecked case, the same thing the British did some decades earlier when they designed the .577-450 MH to take Alexander Henry's .450 3 1/4" load.

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lancaster
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Re: 9.3*53R [Re: kuduae]
      #194692 - 24/11/11 05:57 AM

thanks to Fuhrmann who make the complete catalog availanle here again the pics with the ballistic table
you see that the rimless cartridge and the cartridge with rim are twins. same bullet - same velocity










its a premiere gentleman, first time that the ballistic for this two cartridges is available in the world web

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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vegard_dino
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Re: 9.3*53R [Re: lancaster]
      #194813 - 25/11/11 07:03 AM



Thanks all for great information.
Nice to know.

--------------------
Cheers all, Vegard_dino

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