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gunsports
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Reged: 24/07/11
Posts: 6
Loc: South Africa
Forsyth pattern barrels
      #190931 - 28/09/11 08:52 PM

Just a bit of a heads up is anyone is interested. We’ve managed to convince Jason Schneider of Rice barrels to start production of Forsyth pattern barrels in .62 cal. He has agreed to commence manufacture once he has 20 firm orders for these barrels. Price for the barrel is expected to be $260.00 and barrel detail is as follows: Cal: .62; length: 31”; shape: octagonal, swamped; width of breech: 1 1/8”; groove width: .200”; land width: .040”; no of grooves; 8; depth of grooves: .005-.006”; rifling twist: 1:95. Max allowable powder charge: 200gr.

Jason had tested one of these barrels previously. This is what he found: “I built a 62.cal with 1-95 twist. The barrel was tapered 1 1/8" to 1" x 34" long. It took 140 gr 2F before accuracy was acceptable. With 160 gr. three round (groups) were touching at 100 yds. The same with 180 gr. and 200 gr. The velosity with the 200 gr charge was just shy of 2000 fps.” This is serious medicine in anyone’s language. I think more than suitable for any North American game and also, for most of Africa’s game, shy of buff and tuskers.

Jason can be contacted at: [Email]blackpowder@ricebarrels.com.[/Email] He will probably agree to make straight taper barrels as well. Other calibers are on the horizon; if this venture pans out.

We (In South Africa) have been searching and looking for Forsyth pattern barrels for some time now. This is an fortuitous opportunity to acquire barrels in calibers that are perfectly suited to our style and conditions of hunting. Local shooters are scrimping and saving like crazy to order barrels and I guess; I’m going to be busy for a while building English style sporting rifles.

BTW, here is one of my ‘creations’. Made the cover page of our premier gun and hunting magazine:



--------------------
If it ain't a ball, it ain't a bullet ...

Edited by CptCurl (19/03/12 10:53 AM)


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DarylSModerator
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Re: Forsyth pattern barrels [Re: gunsports]
      #190945 - 29/09/11 01:40 AM

I suggest Jason is referring to the use of 2F, not 3F.

2 years ago, I spoke with Jason at Dixon's Gun Maker Fair in Pennsylvania about Forsyth-style rifling and the growing market.

At that time (2 years ago), Ed Rayle was getting most or all of the orders for Forsyth-style rifling. Rayle would make any calibre or twist desired - which was great. His 16 bore actually is a slightly tight 15 bore (.675" bore) so the .662" Lyman mould can be used, a true 1 oz. ball. In WW alloy, of course it is a mite lighter.

Glad Rice is finally deciding to make some. Thanks to Gunsports for getting them moving on this.

An aquaintance has a .50 cal. Rice barrel with 85" twist made about 1 1/2 years ago for the use of hardened balls.

I had heard on another forum they were going to make a run of Forsyth-style rifled barrels, but there were no particulars of them forthcoming as posted above.

Tks for posting this, Gunsports - and nice rifle design - the very 'best' for hunting, of course.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

Edited by Daryl_S (21/10/11 05:06 AM)


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gunsports
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Loc: South Africa
Re: Forsyth pattern barrels [Re: DarylS]
      #198213 - 31/12/11 05:08 PM

Word is that Jason (Rice) has received enough firm orders for these barrels to start production. He is now making up the tooling for these barrels. Word is also that there is a US kit supplier that will be offering these barrels on English sporting rifle kits; using Chambers locks and quality parts. Early days yet ... But progress none the less. I have this funny feeling that Forsyth pattern barrels will be the IT gun to have for hunting in the coming years.

--------------------
If it ain't a ball, it ain't a bullet ...


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Supercracker
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Re: Forsyth pattern barrels [Re: gunsports]
      #198380 - 02/01/12 02:13 AM

hmmm, I had not heard this before.

I will have to get in on this for sure. Wish he could do me a pair of straight tapered in .72


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gunsports
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Reged: 24/07/11
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Re: Forsyth pattern barrels [Re: Supercracker]
      #198447 - 02/01/12 05:11 PM

Contact Jason at Rice barrels. He's had a number of requests for 12 bore barrels. May just sway him to start tooling up. (Right now, I am working on building two 12 bore English sporting rifles on Forsyth pattern barrels for big game hunting ....)

--------------------
If it ain't a ball, it ain't a bullet ...


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Supercracker
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Re: Forsyth pattern barrels [Re: gunsports]
      #198481 - 02/01/12 11:36 PM

I've talked to him before, going to try to call today. I'm finishing up a Southern Flinter right now with one of their Southern Classic barrels in .50. It feels like it's going to be a very sweet handling gun.

I'm finally getting to the point where I can do a bit of traveling to hunt. I normally hunt with flintlocks and would really rather use flintlocks, but I know I'm far more likely to be able to source a sub powder and caps in Godknowswhereistan than real black powder. So The next two builds for me will be an English Sporter and a 12Bore Double (Perhaps in the Germanic style) specifically for travel use.

I had planned on getting the 12 bore barrels from Oregon Barrel Company, but would rather use Rice. Who did your 12 Bore tubes, if you don't mind me asking?




(To be clear, I don't mean to say anything bad about Oregon at all, I hear only good things about them. But I've Used Rice barrels before and really liked them, whereas I have not shot an Oregon. So I'd rather stick with the known quantity)


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Supercracker
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Re: Forsyth pattern barrels [Re: Supercracker]
      #198508 - 03/01/12 05:40 AM

Alright. Just talked to them and I'm in for one. Jason said that he may do this run of barrels first and a bit early. So they would "possibly" ship in late March.

Also, interestingly, they'll be made to the ToW Jaeger pattern rather than the English one. He told me that was the only pattern that had enough waist thickness.



Edited by CptCurl (19/03/12 10:54 AM)


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DarylSModerator
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Re: Forsyth pattern barrels [Re: Supercracker]
      #198512 - 03/01/12 06:20 AM

To make a 14 or 12 bore would require a straight or straight taper 1 1/8" to 1" or very small swamp from a larger, say, 1 1/4" breech due to the more emtal removed. The gun's weight is important or it will kick to much to be enjoyable shooting. If it's enjoyable to shoot, one will learn the rifle and be able to hit well with it, otherwise, it's usless as a hunting rifle.

1 1/8" tapered to 1" at the muzzle would be OK in a 32" bl. in 16 to 14. The barrel would be quite light (too light?) in 12 bore as it would barely make 9 pounds in 14 bore. Due to the powder charges used, one might want to target 9 1/2 pounds. My 14 bore, pictured below, has a straight taper 1 1/8" bl. 32" long. The rifle weighs 9 pounds 7 ounces exactly (unloaded - 9 pounds 9 pounds 8.4 ounces loaded) (edited weight)

Here's the recoil of a normal hunting load in my own .69 (14 bore) rifle, shooting a 482gr. pure lead round ball with 140gr. 2F. I used to use 165gr. for hunting, but we were shooting a 200yard RB contest and 140 shot to the sights at that range. 165gr. zero'd at 200 meters so was 4-6" high at 200yards.

Sorry for those who are sick, of seeing these pictures, caught before and at the peak of recoil's rise. The rifle is a 14 bore, charge 140gr. 2f GOEX, 482gr. Round ball.



--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

Edited by CptCurl (19/03/12 10:54 AM)


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Supercracker
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Re: Forsyth pattern barrels [Re: DarylS]
      #198673 - 04/01/12 02:33 PM

I want the 12 Bore tubes to build a double. So the rules for it will be a bit different.

the 20Bore Forsyth barrel is going to end up being a Jaeger/stalking rifle. I'm cooking up an Aus Buff, etc trip in 2013 with a buddy and in a perfect world I will be able to make a matching set of rifles to take along.

A 12 Bore double for thumping Bovines left over from the Ice Age and a light (relatively speaking) stalking rifle for Boar and a Red Stag.

I have bought the set of 12 Bore blanks in the classifieds for this project. However, being unprofiled blanks, I need to come up with some dimensions to get it turned to.


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DarylSModerator
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Re: Forsyth pattern barrels [Re: Supercracker]
      #198836 - 07/01/12 03:11 AM

Quote:

I want the 12 Bore tubes to build a double. So the rules for it will be a bit different.

I have bought the set of 12 Bore blanks in the classifieds for this project. However, being unprofiled blanks, I need to come up with some dimensions to get it turned to.




What length barrels finished? What's the target weight? Access to an original or someone who owns an original 12 bore or 10 bore DR muzzleloader or ctg. gun will be MOST helpful.

I really want to get over to Australia for a visit/hunt, to. I expect that won't happen until my wife retires - few years at least.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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DarylSModerator
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Re: Forsyth pattern barrels [Re: DarylS]
      #206195 - 30/03/12 05:46 AM

Hey - thought you boys would like to know - I just had a really great conversation with Jason from Rice barrels this morning (afternoon for him) concerning their making of the .62 cal Jaeger and English Barrels along the Forsyth principal - shallow rifling, with slow twists.

They're getting underway on these right away and to also inculde some up to 16 or perhaps a tight 15 bore at .670" bore dimension. I am most interested in personally re-barreling my 14 bore from a straight 1 1/8" X 32" bl. to a 32" in 1 1/8" tapered to 1" at the muzzle in a true Forsyth-type barrel of .670" cal. Althoguht exceptionally accurate, my .69 has ratehr deep rifling at .012" with a faster than I want, 66" twist. This barrel demands a tighter ball and patch combination than many people are willing or perhaps capable of loading - the ball being only .006" smaller than the bore and with a .030" patch. You have to want to make it go down is the only way to describe it.

Jason's 'new' barrel promises to be much more shooter friendly as the slower twist allows shallower rifling which is more easily filled in comparrison. That most important fit is in Forsyth's works, humored, rather than forced as in my barrel.

The gun weight lost from the taper will be overcome by the smaller bore size, I'm fairly certain. I want it to remain 9 to 9 1/2 pounds. This makes for a pleasant shooting rifle for hunting as well as for rendezvous competition, although don't expect a lot of guys trying to pry it out of your hands for their 'second' shot at a mere target. For the larger, big game, these bore rifles are amazingly effective tools.

Simply wearing a PAST shoulder protector under the shirt or jacket takes literally ALL the sting out of shooting these marvelous hunting rifles with their healthy loads. The wide butts and perfect geometry of stock also helps reduce the recoil of shooting up to 7 drams of powder with an ounce or more of lead.

Dropping one of these loads into a 12 bore plastic hull and touching it off from your 9 pound duck gun will give you an idea of what to expect. The English rifle kicks a bit less, but then, has a steel butt plate, albeit a full 2" wide.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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MikeRowe
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Reged: 23/11/11
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Loc: Arkansas, USA
Re: Forsyth pattern barrels [Re: DarylS]
      #206208 - 30/03/12 12:42 PM

I have used a pile of Ed Rayl's barrels over the years. I always ordered them with the slow twist and shallow round bottom grooves. Anywhere from .25 cal. to 20 gauge.

Ed will swamp a barrel just how you want it. A nice English barrel just has a whisker of swamp. The Jaeger profile is best fixed by simply sawing off the offending extra, IMHO. Makes for a handy rifle anyway.

My own .50 cal deer rifle has a Rayl 25" barrel with a twist in 95" and .006" round bottom rifling. Although of very light round profile, it's a tackdriver.

I also have a .25 cal squirrel rifle with a twist in 48" and about .005" round bottom rifling Rayl barrel. It shoots #4 buckshot almost touching at 25 yards (plenty good to head shoot a squirrel). Load is 16.5 grains - a K-Hornet cae full - of 3F. Everybody told me I'd never get it reloaded, and you won't if you have .012" rifling and use 4F like all the gun writers. I can load and shoot 20 shots without cleaning, and the last one goes down the barrel just as easily as the first one did. I'm still using the hickory rod made with the rifle almost ten years ago. Just remember to keep any petroleum based oil out of the bore. That little ball only weighs 19 grains, but it will completely penetrate a squirrel's body at 40 yards.

But I have to put my reading glasses on to load it......

Edited by MikeRowe (30/03/12 12:43 PM)


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DarylSModerator
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Re: Forsyth pattern barrels [Re: MikeRowe]
      #206213 - 30/03/12 01:45 PM

Mike - we all load fairly tight combinations that load the same for the 80th shot, as they do for the first.

My deepest rifled guns have .012" rifling. They do not require any wiping at any time for an entire day's shooting. When you're shooting instead of wiping, that can be a lot of shooting.

My bro has a couple Rice and Getz barrels with .016" rifling. They-too shoot cleanly, with never needing wiping as no fouling builds up.

We all use balls that are pure lead and usually .005" smaller than the bore PLUS a .020" to .030" lubed patch. There is no buildup of fouling while shooting and loading is easily accomplished with the rifle's hickory rod, no matter the calibre.

We will sometimes use a range rod, just to eliminate having to remove the rifle's rod and replace it, every shot.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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MikeRowe
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Re: Forsyth pattern barrels [Re: DarylS]
      #206217 - 30/03/12 02:21 PM

I think the shallow rifling really is most advantageous in the very small calibers. I have always been able to obtain excellent hunting accuracy in any of my rifles with a very easy loading patch/ball combination. I have no use for a round ball rifle that has to be cleaned between shots.

I usually shoot balls .010" under bore with blue mattress tick I buy at Walmart. All my rifles use it, and they LIKE it - if you know what I mean.


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Supercracker
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Re: Forsyth pattern barrels [Re: MikeRowe]
      #207320 - 19/04/12 01:25 AM

FYI

Just hung up the phone with Jason. He said that they were a bit behind but were about to finish them up. Supposed to be finished by the end of the month. According to him the blanks were drilled and rifling cut but were waiting, along with all their other barrels, to be profiled.


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DarylSModerator
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Re: Forsyth pattern barrels [Re: Supercracker]
      #207345 - 19/04/12 07:39 AM

I am looking foreward to a 'large' 16 bore, ie: small 15bore barrel at .670". That way, my brand new .662" Lyman mould (1 ounce ball) will finally get use.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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doulos
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Re: Forsyth pattern barrels [Re: gunsports]
      #208183 - 09/05/12 11:59 AM

From what I have read here and on other forums Forsyth rifiling seems to be most applicable in hunting very large or dangerous game. The reason being that I keep hearing that accuracy isnt that great until very heavy charges are used. I believe I read that Jason from Rice said he achieved his best accuracy with the prototype at 160 grains FFG in the .62 caliber. Hardly necessary if you are just chasing whitetails. In fact for this continent I think a .62 cal with 120 -130 grains would absolutely be a powerhouse except for maybe grizzlies.
Am I wrong about this type of rifiling not reaching its accuracy potential until very large charges are used? Or have I fallen to the trap of reading too much on the internet?


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DarylSModerator
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Re: Forsyth pattern barrels [Re: doulos]
      #208207 - 10/05/12 12:43 AM

Doulos - that is correct. The slow twist demands higher than typlical 'whitetail killing speed' to stabilize the round ball. To get that stability, requires more powder and more powder means higher recoil but delivers substancially flatter trajectory. Many think the ball does not need to be stabilized like a bullet demands, but that thinking is incorrect.

The larger bores are definitely mean for heavier and tougher game than deer - moose, elk, and the big bears, along with African species.

When you slow the twist, you must increase the speed. The shallow rilfing, which loads easily even with a hard ball which is necessary for the deepest penetration, does not stip due to the slower twists.

The increased speed flattens trajectory, giving an otherwise large bore gun a point blank range of 130yards - to get that with a heavy round ball for killing large game is a wonderful bonus.

That sort of trajectory is not possible with an type of slug in the same bore sized rifle.

The charges needed for get good accuracy in slow twist barrels will have many of todays shooters wincing at the recoil.

My own 14 bore, even though having a relatively fast 66" twist with .012" deep rlfing, demands 140gr. of more 2f to shoot accurately with it's 482gr. pure lead ball. If it did not have the .012" deep rlfing and I did not use a patch combination many would falter at loading, it would not shoot as well as it does. I know, as I've extensively shot this rifle with ALL powder charges and patch combinations at all ranges to 200yards.

I have never witnesses a more accurate muzzleloading hunting rifle than that one. It still consistantly shoots into from 1" to 1 1/2" for 5 shots off the bags at 100 meters. Not many guys here will shoot my "Gentle Lady" a the second time, yet even with my shoulder injuries, I can use it on the bush trail quite easily, shooting steel targets - I'm used to it's recoil & the way it recoils, which is quite soft - I feel. It's an English gun of the 1850 period, the epitomy of a hunting rifle design. The later guns follow it's traits very closely.

I know that reducing the bore size from 14 to a one ounce ball, ie: 16 bore, will allow me to shoot the heavier charges needed for 'guilt edge accuracy', and still handle the recoil. I am also looking for an 80" to 85" twist with from .005" minimum to .008" at the most, rifling depth.

The slow twist allows (and demands) heavier charges, which flattens trajectory; The slow twist also allows shallow rifling allows using hard alloyed balls for heavier game, with normal cloth patches. Each 'change' humors the other. The higher charges needed is also humored, as we want higher speeds to shoot flatter trajectories over unknown ranges. The exact range is not necessary- to know it's just over 100yards is enough. Then, we use an express sight with a coupld leaves, file them in for specific ranges.

Later styled American rifles with narrow butt plates, and much drop at the comb and heel are NOT suitable for this type of barrel. Would one of these barrels be a good replacement on a Hawken rifle? I'd definitley not recommend that but then, that's why the English design prevailed in heavy calibre rifles ever after.

NOTE! If the question is: do I need a Forsyth-Principal barrel to shoot Eastern Whitetailed deer? - the answer is definitely no.
If the question is, do I need this type of barrel to shoot Wester Mulies or whitetailed deer out to 225 yards? - the answer is a definite and resounding YES! The squib loads that will kill Eastern 50 to 60yard whitetails all day long in the bushes and smaller fields there, are useless at longer ranges over unknown plains or draws up valleys where stalking closer than 200 or 150yards might not be possible. We're talking .62 cal. or smaller, here, maybe down to .54.

In my honest opinion, of course.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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