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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Mauser Discussion Forum

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twalker
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Loc: Southern California, USA

.318 or .323 - best bullet match for my Type S
#190279 - 20/09/11 03:45 PM

Well, I finally slugged the bore of my Oberndorf type S and found that the grooves are .32145 (thumb dial digital micrometer) instead of .316 as I thought. For that bore size, is it better to use the undersized .318 bullets? A .318 bullet is very loose in the neck of a fired shell, and a .323 bullet is tighter but still moves easily. I'm taking it to the Mojave Natl. Preserve this year for mule deer. The underloaded American ammo would probably be fine at the ranges I'll likely see anything at; was just wondering what would be best for this old girl.

I appreciate any thoughts you have on load levels in rifles of this vintage. I have load data, but am a bit wary of loading to European levels in a rifle of this age.

Thanks for your time,

Terry

Edited by CptCurl (28/11/11 12:49 AM)

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FATBOY404
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Re: .318 or .323 - best bullet match for my Type S [Re: twalker]
#190280 - 20/09/11 03:49 PM

Cant help you with loads but . Nice rifle and caliber mate.

--------------------
"WHATEVER BLOWS YOUR HAIR BACK"

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rigbymauser
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Re: .318 or .323 - best bullet match for my Type S [Re: FATBOY404]
#190284 - 20/09/11 04:18 PM

With the bore you have miked I would shoot .323" cal bullets all day long. Happy hunting!.

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500Nitro
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Re: .318 or .323 - best bullet match for my Type S [Re: rigbymauser]
#190287 - 20/09/11 04:41 PM

Quote:

With the bore you have miked I would shoot .323" cal bullets all day long. Happy hunting!.

Agree.

.

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DarylS
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Re: .318 or .323 - best bullet match for my Type S [Re: 500Nitro]
#190325 - 21/09/11 01:23 AM

By all means, a .323" bullet. The 'fit' in the fired case gives the afirmative answer to bullet size. As to loads, any 8x57S load is fine.

The US factory ammo is laoded to 35,000psi and with .321" bullets, running 2,200fps to 2,300fps from most rifles.

I'd be using Norma if I had to use factory ammo. It is loaded to 57,000PSI and will easily handle any long shots you come across.

--------------------
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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twalker
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Re: .318 or .323 - best bullet match for my Type S [Re: DarylS]
#190330 - 21/09/11 02:41 AM

Excellent, I just happen to have a couple of boxes of Norma ammo on hand. Thank you gentlemen for removing any doubts.

tw

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458Shooter
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Re: .318 or .323 - best bullet match for my Type S [Re: twalker]
#190379 - 21/09/11 03:47 PM

Quote:

Well, I finally slugged the bore of my Oberndorf type S and found that the grooves are .32145 (thumb dial digital micrometer) instead of .316 as I thought. For that bore size, is it better to use the undersized .318 bullets? A .318 bullet is very loose in the neck of a fired shell, and a .323 bullet is tighter but still moves easily. I'm taking it to the Mojave Natl. Preserve this year for mule deer. The underloaded American ammo would probably be fine at the ranges I'll likely see anything at; was just wondering what would be best for this old girl.

I appreciate any thoughts you have on load levels in rifles of this vintage. I have load data, but am a bit wary of loading to European levels in a rifle of this age.

Thanks for your time,

Terry

That's the nicest Mauser I have seen in ages.

Edited by CptCurl (28/11/11 12:49 AM)

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Homer
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Re: .318 or .323 - best bullet match for my Type S [Re: 458Shooter]
#190386 - 21/09/11 06:31 PM

G'Day Fella's,

TWalker, I've just been loading some .308" and .312" diameter bullets in my latest toy (a B/action 7.62x39) and have been swapping the expander button in the RCBS die set, to suit the different size bullets.

Not sure if you want to reload for your 8mm rifle but I assume you know that it would be better, if you did a similar thing.

Hope that helps

Doh!
Homer

--------------------
"Beware the Lolly Pop of Mediocrity,
Lick it Once and You Will Suck Forever"

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DarylS
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Re: .318 or .323 - best bullet match for my Type S [Re: Homer]
#190410 - 22/09/11 02:35 AM

Because it says "S" it probalby has a .323" groove diameter.

It is easy to make an error of .002" when trying to measure the groove diameter from the muzzle, with calipers. oneed to rock the tines back and forth while pulling back on the button, watching for the largest measurement. Even then, mistakes are easily made. Slugging the muzzle with a pure lead slug and measuring the slug is the most accurate method.

That the .223" bullets fit in fired brass is the biggie here.

The age of the gun does not make it too weak for normal pressures, which is what Norma ammo is loaded to - providing the front receiver ring is not cut almost to the threads with a dovetail. Of those rifles, I am leary. This rifle appears to have the front ring dovetailed into something attached to the front ring.

Phil's spot-on - that is a nice looking Mauser.

--------------------
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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twalker
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Re: .318 or .323 - best bullet match for my Type S [Re: DarylS]
#190544 - 23/09/11 08:05 AM

I'll probably end up loading for it. Strangely, both remington factory loads and Norma Oryx ammo result in a ridge forming at the tip of the neck of the fired brass and a stiff bolt just at the end of the lift. My gunsmith doesn't think pressure is the issue and is looking at it to see what's up. It shoots the Prvi Partizan 8mm mauser ammo to the iron sights at 100 yards and places them as well as I can hold. In either case, I know someone here who makes custom bullets.

This one was made in 1914, what typically were they loaded too back then?

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500Nitro
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Re: .318 or .323 - best bullet match for my Type S [Re: twalker]
#190545 - 23/09/11 08:17 AM

Is brass flow into the barrel causing it ?

As in the cases need trimming ?

.

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justcurious
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Re: .318 or .323 - best bullet match for my Type S [Re: DarylS]
#190547 - 23/09/11 08:36 AM

If there is any doubt about the result of measurement (especially after unknown more ore less extensive use of the barrel) and the originally intended rifling when the gun was build ,

you will most often find the answer on the underside of the barrel shank.

In Oberndorf they used to stamp there the land and groove diameter plus twistrate.

Pull the action out of the stock and have a look.

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twalker
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Re: .318 or .323 - best bullet match for my Type S [Re: justcurious]
#190548 - 23/09/11 10:01 AM

This one's just marked 8,57 (I should have said it was a model S to avoid confusion). Measuring the groove diameter at the barrel gave me the .316 reading before. That didn't sound right, so I slugged the barrel and the thumb dial digital micrometer gave a more accurate measure (.32145).

I haven't had the stock off yet, but will find out what's on the underside of the barrel shank while it's in the shop.

A chamber cast showed that the chamber was normal (not short) for the 8x57, so I'm thinking that the brass has to be flowing into the barrel. The primers looked normal; the main difference seems to be that the PPU brass was visibly annealed and appeared thinner at the neck. If it turns out to be a pressure issue or it's marked for the smaller bullets, I'll load .318 200 grainers.

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DarylS
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Re: .318 or .323 - best bullet match for my Type S [Re: twalker]
#190554 - 23/09/11 11:31 AM

Hornady makes a .321" 170gr. with small FN for the .32 Special.

There are a number of possibilities.

Might be flow at the bolt face. Not a pressure item, but a rough bold face shearing off or re-seating primer material can cause this?

Too - rough or annealed bolt rear angle slide(cokcing portion) of the bolt will gall and cause lifting problems. This happens when improperly shielded bolts have the bolt handle changed to clear a scope.

Too-high pressure is probably not one of the problems, especially with factory ammo, even though pressure appears to be the problem. If .323" bullets easily slide into fired brass, NP, even in the .32145" groove diameter.

What do the fired cases measure for length compared to what they measure prior to firing?

Has the headspace been checked?

This forming ridge upon firing intrigues me.

A chamber case should have shown the cause.

It is not normal for brass to flow forward into the leade/freebore or as has been called above, the barrel. Not even grossly excessive pressure causes this in any gun I've seen.

Excessive bolt thrust can cause bolt binding due to an excessive headspace situation.

Rough chamber also causes hard extraction to 'break' the case free into rear-ward movement.

--------------------
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Rolf
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Re: .318 or .323 - best bullet match for my Type S [Re: DarylS]
#190579 - 23/09/11 08:52 PM

Hello Terry,

if you intend on using the 8mm S/ .323" bullets I have some ideas:

- for testing accuracy I use the Sierra 200grs HPBT Match bullets.
It performs constant and precisely in my various 8x57IS, a 8x60S, a 8x64S and two 8x68S.
I load it in the 8x57IS for about 720-740 m/s with good results.

- the 180grs Ballistic Tip is my favourite bullet for roe deer (up to 30lbs) with a muzzle velocity of about 760 m/s (8x57IS).
I wouldn´t use it on game and short distances in magnum calibers (8x68S and 8mm Mag)

- 196grs Woodleigh Weldcore RN was very good at one hog (70kg), with two bullets in the chest mushrooming and exits. One bullet hit the shoulder blade.
It was my experience that this bullet needs for good precision a faster velocity (beginning at 750 m/s) which you might not receive ouf of the 8x57IS with a short barrel.

- the Sierra 175grs Spitzer SP was very precise in a custom FN 98 rifle 8x64S upto 300 meters.
I have no experience with it on game.

best regards
Rolf

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doubleriflejack
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Re: .318 or .323 - best bullet match for my Type S [Re: twalker]
#190656 - 25/09/11 03:59 AM

If you slugged and measured the bore correctly, and it seems as if you did, it is of .323 bore; not of .318 bore. In a .323 bore, to shoot either .323 bullets or .318 bullets, both will work, but the .318 will not be as accurate as the tighter fitting .323 bullet. To shoot a .323 bullet in a .318 barrel causes increased pressures, and is to be avoided, so don't do it.

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twalker
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Re: .318 or .323 - best bullet match for my Type S [Re: doubleriflejack]
#193453 - 09/11/11 06:55 PM

Gentlemen, I apologize for the long absence. I just got the mauser back from the shop. Mr. Brunner said that he just polished the chamber a little, but working the bolt on an empty chamber is incredibly smoother now too. The bolt also closes on Norma factory ammo now without the effort it took before. Fired cases are smooth at the case neck tip now. I left the old fired brass with him so I don't have anything to compare the length with. I suspect that the slight stiffness I felt in closing the bolt before putting it in the shop may have been tight headspace. If it was tight enough, would that have caused the brass to appear to flow into the barrel?

Thanks to all for your help and suggestions on reloading. I will be loading for this one, just so I can afford to shoot it more often.

Edited by CptCurl (28/11/11 12:50 AM)

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DarylS
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Re: .318 or .323 - best bullet match for my Type S [Re: twalker]
#193477 - 10/11/11 02:37 AM

Quote:

Gentlemen, I apologize for the long absence. I just got the mauser back from the shop. Mr. Brunner said that he just polished the chamber a little, but working the bolt on an empty chamber is incredibly smoother now too. The bolt also closes on Norma factory ammo now without the effort it took before. Fired cases are smooth at the case neck tip now. I left the old fired brass with him so I don't have anything to compare the length with. I suspect that the slight stiffness I felt in closing the bolt before putting it in the shop may have been tight headspace. If it was tight enough, would that have caused the brass to appear to flow into the barrel?

Thanks to all for your help and suggestions on reloading. I will be loading for this one, just so I can afford to shoot it more often.

Do .323" bullets slide easily into the necks of cases fired in this rifle?

If that is the 'case', then .323" bullets can be used in the .3215" groove diameter barrel as indicated above. You must start your loads with the starting load listed in the loading manual. NEVER start with a maximum load.

--------------------
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

Edited by CptCurl (28/11/11 12:50 AM)

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kuduae
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Re: .318 or .323 - best bullet match for my Type S [Re: DarylS]
#193495 - 10/11/11 06:37 AM

Have a look inside the book "Mauser - Original Oberndorf Sporting Rifles" by Jon Speed. On page 275 he shows a hand-written table on barrel dimensions from the Mauser factory files, dated December 9, 1926. It shows the 8mm cartridges with barrel dimension suited for the 8mmI = .318" bullets, but there is a footnote in German below this table. Translated by me it reads in modernized parlance: "The Hunting rifles for the cartridges 8x57I (.318) and 8x60I (.318") get the chamber and throat for the S-type .323" bullets, so that the S cartidges may be used in these rifles." I would not hesitate to use European CIP standard factory loads or comparable handloads in your just marginally undersized, .3215", barrel.

--------------------
German foresters: We like sustainability! For merely 300 years by 2013.

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Buchsemann
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Re: .318 or .323 - best bullet match for my Type S [Re: kuduae]
#193509 - 10/11/11 08:27 AM

twalker,

That is one very attractive Mauser. Please post more pictures when you have the time.

Regards,

Buchseman

--------------------
Happy the man, and happy he alone,
He who can call today his own:
He who, secure within, can say,
Tomorrow do thy worst, for I have lived today.

- John Dryden

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DarylS
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Re: .318 or .323 - best bullet match for my Type S [Re: kuduae]
#193512 - 10/11/11 08:37 AM

In Europe, the CIP pressure level for the 57mm case, is 57,000PSI.

The 2 American makers, RP and WW of 8x57 ammo, load them with .321" bullets and to only 34,000PSI.

I recall one of P.O. Ackley's experiments - standard chambered .30/06 (probably a Springfield) with a .308" groove diameter - shooting 150gr. bullets using a normal IMR4895 load. the velocity and pressure was recorded.

They went to sucessively larger 150gr. bullets - then at .358" 150gr., had to run a .35Whelen reamer in to allow the .35 Remington 150gr. bullet to be seated and chambered for proper neck clearance.

Still using the original load, that one fired just fine, indeed, Ackley reported higher velocity and lower pressure with each increase in bullet size. They didn't know why, but it was exciting for them to observe this. They did this test due to the print stating a .323" bullet would blow up a .318" barrel. Ackely proved that if the chamber had the neck clearance, the larger bullet greated no such danger. perhaps the danger was actually firing modern 8x57S (57,000SPI) ammo in an old model 1988, not the 1998.

The logistics noted were that the powder peaked pressure some inches up the tube and by then, the bullets were of course, the correct size for the bore as they'd draw down in the throat itself, when pressure was much lower. Perhaps this heavy drawing increased initial pressure, but that seemingly was not detrimental to the rifle nor the test.

He then spoke/wrote of WW11 or perhaps pre WW11 German experiments that had an 8mm barrel taper bored and rifled with a .257" muzzle groove diameter. That one gave outstanding velocity/pressure stats but due to being so difficult to rifle, the project was abandoned. This was reported in the #1 book, I think. My memory isn't what it used to be Please forgive any details missed.

--------------------
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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xausa
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Re: .318 or .323 - best bullet match for my Type S [Re: DarylS]
#193513 - 10/11/11 09:27 AM

Younger readers may not be aware of an article in the American Rifleman which appeared back in the 1950's.

A gunsmith sent in a rifle to the NRA Technical Staff for evaluation with the following story:

A customer appeared in his shop with a Japanese Arisaka rifle which he said kicked too hard, and wanted to know if the smith could correct it. He further stated that it was a caliber 7.7mm Arisaka, which he had rechambered to .30-'06. He had test fired it by holding it on the opposite side of a tree while shooting it and then used it to kill a deer, but the recoil was too much for him to bear.

The gunsmith told the customer that he had made a mistake, because the rifle he brought in was a caliber 6.5 mm Arisaka, and such a rifle could not be rechambered to .30-'06, because the reamer pilot would not enter the barrel. The customer replied that he only had the one Arisaka, and that he had solved the problem with the pilot by grinding it down until it would enter the bore.

The gunsmith verified that the rifle had, in fact, been rechambered to .30-'06 before sending it to the NRA technical staff. The technical staff decided to fire the rifle under controlled conditions. They were able to recover the bullets, which were pictured with the article next to unfired bullets of the same description. Both military and civilian hunting bullets were fired. The fired bullets were significantly longer than the unfired ones.

Other than having difficulty opening the bolt after firing, the results were unremarkable. The headspace was within acceptable limits at the conclusion of the testing. Evidently firing caliber .308" bullets through a caliber .264" bore was not a dangerous practice, as long as there was sufficient neck clearance for the bullet to be released when the cartridge was fired.

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DarylS
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Re: .318 or .323 - best bullet match for my Type S [Re: xausa]
#193523 - 10/11/11 11:51 AM

If the chamber had been polished, there probably wouldn't have been any dificulty raising the bolt either.

Too the early Arisaka actions were incredibly strong actions, which in Ackley's blow-up tests, showed normal pressures with a .270 Magnum Wildcat round, when other actions were letting go with the same ammo.

--------------------
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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twalker
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Re: .318 or .323 - best bullet match for my Type S [Re: DarylS]
#193532 - 10/11/11 03:53 PM

Lost my previous post. Oh well, the .323 moves easily in the fired case neck, a .318 bullet falls in. Thank you Kuduae for the translation, and thanks again to all for the wealth of information. I have 100 of the 175gr Sierra Spitzer SP bullets to start with. In my small condo, I've been using the old Lyman 310 tool to load for my lightweight 1886. Looks like I'm adding a new set of dies.

One of the really nice things with this rifle that I haven't had before is that I can keep the scope in my pack while jumping up mule deer and just snap it back on if needed.

Take care,

Terry

Edited by CptCurl (28/11/11 12:51 AM)

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georgegibbs505
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Re: .318 or .323 - best bullet match for my Type S [Re: twalker]
#193537 - 10/11/11 05:17 PM

I would load Nosler Partitions for Mule Deer, I load Nosler Ballistic Tips for my Whitetail hunting in my 8mm rifles.PM me if you would like to try a few.

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