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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Muzzleloaders & Blackpowder

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Tatume
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Homemade bp
      #189931 - 15/09/11 08:51 AM

Hello Folks,

I'm reading a thread on homemade blackpowder on another forum. I'd like to hear thoughts and experiences from this crowd too. Anybody?

--------------------
Take care, Tom
NRA Life Member


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500Nitro
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Re: Homemade bp [Re: Tatume]
      #189932 - 15/09/11 08:58 AM

What are they saying, do it or not ?

When I was learning / playing about explosives (as part of courses), I thought I was told that BP was one of the most unstable and dangerous things to make because it was so easy to set off so other things were suggested that were less volatile.
.

Edited by 500Nitro (15/09/11 09:50 AM)


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gatsby
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Re: Homemade bp [Re: Tatume]
      #189933 - 15/09/11 09:34 AM

Beyond trying to turn out a consistent and potent product what are the legalities both state and federal?

--------------------
"Recoil is insignificant when there is a tiger on the head of your elephant" The Maharaja of Cooch Behar



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jaguarxk120
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Reged: 29/11/07
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Re: Homemade bp [Re: gatsby]
      #189934 - 15/09/11 10:10 AM

The muzzleloadingforum won't even address the making of BP. One of the forum's rules says it is a no-no to discuss it.

At federal level you need a explosives mfgr's license. State and local chances the same. The local fire dept would have a field day with someone making their own BP.

Lastly if one wants to know the process get Phil Sharpe's book "Complete Guide to Handloading"


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500Nitro
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Re: Homemade bp [Re: jaguarxk120]
      #189936 - 15/09/11 10:36 AM


No need to discuss it, all the info is available on line
etc etc but personally, the amount of time and effort that goes into these things, especially "trying to turn out a consistent and potent product" from batch to batch makes me wonder if it i all worth it.

Remember, it is your face next to the gun and it only has to have a problem once.

.


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DarylSModerator
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Re: Homemade bp [Re: 500Nitro]
      #189939 - 15/09/11 11:47 AM

Several over on ALR have made their own BP over the years. One member there helped his daugther or son with a grade 7 science experiment make it & document the process. I have the URL (or printout) on the process somewhere.

Since 9-11, it is probably illegal in the worse way - in both Canada and most of the US states due to the 'explosives' clauses.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Homemade bp [Re: DarylS]
      #189947 - 15/09/11 04:51 PM

Do a search on the net and you will find out what need.

You would need to make sure of the legalities in your area.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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lancaster
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Re: Homemade bp [Re: NitroX]
      #190066 - 17/09/11 02:18 PM

possible and simple to make so called "Staubpulver" dust powder by mixing sulphur,charcoal and saltpeter. this is not so easy to ignite like professionel made gunpowder but loaded one part homemade powder over one part gunpowder works satisfying. will burning also with much more dirt and is not so powerful like the real thing. only useful for muzzle loader canons when shoting salute but works also in shotgun cartridges. the book "the golden age of shotgunning" mention the use of homemade powder from professional waterfowler's in the united states because of the prise of gunpowder beside of homemade smokless powder's between 1870 and 1918. they had also problems with ignition and use a amount of gunpowder as a starter.

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by lancaster (17/09/11 02:19 PM)


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Dr_Deer
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Re: Homemade bp [Re: lancaster]
      #190068 - 17/09/11 02:41 PM

When I was travelling through the northern parts of Vietnam I found a market stall selling barrels, lead balls and cellophane bags of sulphur charcoal and saltpetre for the purchaser to mix in their desired ratio - I should have taken a picture.

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Squarebridge
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Re: Homemade bp [Re: Dr_Deer]
      #190096 - 18/09/11 12:40 AM

The hard part isn't the recipe or the ingredients, the hard part is getting the equipment together to properly mix and pulverize the ingredients. You need to get a ball mill and then you need to build a press to press the powder...all of which is problematic. It's far harder than making wine or beer at home, with much less financial incentive.

I looked into it and got the books and started to source ingredients and quickly realized it would be along the lines of building my own mousetraps to save money killing mice.


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poprivit
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Re: Homemade bp [Re: Squarebridge]
      #190103 - 18/09/11 03:09 AM

Also, look up the process of "corning". Necessary for bp.

Hold this thought, too. Most BP mills in the early days were built very flimsily. So when the mixture went up, the burn wasn't constricted. No iron tools, usually wood. How are you at wet grinding to uniform size?

Yeah, it's sulphur, charcoal and saltpeter, but that's only a vague start.

Much easier to buy the stuff.


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500Nitro
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Re: Homemade bp [Re: Squarebridge]
      #190122 - 18/09/11 07:55 AM

Quote:

The hard part isn't the recipe or the ingredients, the hard part is getting the equipment together to properly mix and pulverize the ingredients. You need to get a ball mill and then you need to build a press to press the powder...all of which is problematic. It's far harder than making wine or beer at home, with much less financial incentive.

I looked into it and got the books and started to source ingredients and quickly realized it would be along the lines of building my own mousetraps to save money killing mice.





I read once on one list / web site that the guy used a mortar and mortar and pestle (he had photos).

but I do agree with the 2nd paragraph.

.


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Tatume
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Re: Homemade bp [Re: 500Nitro]
      #190125 - 18/09/11 08:37 AM

Hi Folks,

If I were to pursue this project (and that's a big IF), it wouldn't be to save money. The idea of independence from commercial suppliers and the government appeals to me. I already cast my own bullets, and make my own flints. If I could make small quantities of powder I would have everything. (Now if I could just figure out how to make musket and rifle caps, I'd be golden!)

--------------------
Take care, Tom
NRA Life Member


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DarylSModerator
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Re: Homemade bp [Re: Tatume]
      #190131 - 18/09/11 11:14 AM

Tom- I've made my own caps with a Forester Tap-O-Cap die mounted in the rockchucker. For formula I used 5 parts potassium chlorate, 1 part sublmed (flour of) sulfer and 1 part ground up briquets.

This bastic formula of 5:1:1 made with 19th century produces can be highly unstable. Mine seemed to be stable, but what do I know? The forumla apparently was outlawed in England as being unstable with mixed in a slurry, as I did.

A single drop of 'solution' was dripper into each 'cap', probably drying and hardening into a disk about .010" thick. They were VERY hot caps.

Today, the a stock of the compound might be construed as explosives - of that possibility, I don't know either but am highly suspicious.

Sifted into a .22 Stinger's hollow cavity then sealed over with a swipe of beeswax, then fired, would cut off a 1" willow tree. Sifted into a 3/8" diameter hole drilled into .58 Minnie balls(bullets), then sealed over with beeswax would cut off a 12" to 14" diameter aspen)poplar).

These homemade caps kept me in shooting during a time when caps were not available except in Vancouver, BC. Shipping was not possible for me. Living in the bush at that time created some supply problems.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Homemade bp [Re: Squarebridge]
      #190173 - 19/09/11 12:54 AM

Quote:

The hard part isn't the recipe or the ingredients, the hard part is getting the equipment together to properly mix and pulverize the ingredients. You need to get a ball mill and then you need to build a press to press the powder...all of which is problematic.




The small ball mill also needs to be, I BELIEVE, a lead one, not steel, iron or ceramic, as these may cause sparks and a explosion when grinding/mixing.

NO LIABILITY is accepted for any damage or loss caused by the above statement. Seek professional advice.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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Tatume
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Re: Homemade bp [Re: NitroX]
      #190182 - 19/09/11 02:25 AM

Hi Daryl,

Making flints is dangereous enough! The small flakes fly everywhere and cuts are inevitable. I'm not sure I want to try making percussion caps.

Take care, Tom

--------------------
Take care, Tom
NRA Life Member


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DarylSModerator
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Re: Homemade bp [Re: Tatume]
      #190194 - 19/09/11 05:21 AM

Yeah I understand - I received a letter from a chemist in the States saying the formula was outlawed in England due to it's stability problem. He wasn't sure what chemicals I'd added with the sublimed sulfer and briquets - that's any body's guess but it worked for me for a couple years.

The formulation was what was used for the priming pills in pill-lock guns, prior to 1860, as well as in primers of the era up into & including the murcuric primers era.

Potassium Chlorate was one of the components of corrosive primers of that era and is the chemical responsible for many barrels being badly pitted, even though they might have been cleaned well after use(cleaning oils/solutions in late 1800's thorugh to non-corrosive primers being commmonplace).

This chlorate chemical is the reason soldiers were told to urinate down their rifle barrels to help disolve the corrosives left by the primers. Too, I think the amonia neutralized the acidic nature of the chlorate residue. Cleaning oils themselves won't disolve the residue which becomes very acidic with the addition of moisture (over humidity of 30% - about).

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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BillfromOregon
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Re: Homemade bp [Re: DarylS]
      #191223 - 04/10/11 02:01 AM

Some very good stuff here:

http://www.musketeer.ch/blackpowder/bp_menu.html


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DarylSModerator
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Re: Homemade bp [Re: BillfromOregon]
      #191332 - 05/10/11 09:27 AM

Here's a grade 7 project - making Black Powder by a friend and his daughter on another site.
Originally, under a post in Accouterments, I responded to a post from Big Al about making black powder. At the suggestion of some others, I am moving parts of that post to this section.**************************************************************As each of my two daughters and a nephew got to the point of their 6th or 7th grade science project, I helped them make charcoal out of several different kinds of wood. Each type of charcoal was used to make pressed, corned, granulated, and tumbled black powder. [The charcoal was ball milled, as was the sulfur and potassium nitrate (all seperately) and then all together remotely for an hour or so. The meal powder was then moistened and pressed into cake. The cake was corned and screened to the appropriate size and then tumbled briefly in powdered graphite.]They then fired a golf ball down range (out of a small brass mortar) with an accurately weighed charge of each type of powder and timed the flight from firing to impact with a stop watch to compare the relative strength the powder. Each type of powder was tested 5 times and the results averaged. As a control, the test was run five times with the same granulation of Goex and five more times with DuPont. The results varied somewhat, but each of them made very consistent powder and the use of lemon wood for the charcoal made powder about 10% stronger than either DuPont or Goex.The bottom line here is that it is quite doable to safely make very consistent, usable black powder.In the ATF Federal Explosives Law and Regulations (ATF P 5400.7 (09/00) page 58, General Questions, #36 relates to this subject. The question is When is a manufacturer's (i.e. explosives) license required ? Answer, A manufacturer's license is needed only by persons engaged in the business of manufacturing explosive materials for sale, distribution, or for business use. For example, persons engaged in the business of providing a blasting service using explosives of their own manufacture would be required to have a manufacturer's license. Persons who manufacture explosives for their personal, non business use would not need a manufacturer's license. (27 CFR 55.11: Definition of manufacturer, 55.41)Under this provision, a federal manufacturer's license does not seem to be required. State and local laws may apply however, depending on the quantity made and stored.I will post some pictures from the science projects as well as some of the data generated by some 12 year old pyrotechnicians. You might be amazed. And for those who will undoubtedly jump up about safety in regard to making powder, at no time during the process is the intermediate powder any more volitile than the finished powder is in the can or in the horn. So if you can teach youngsters how to handle a firearm and its ammunition safely, then you can show them how to make powder safely.A few photos of the process.
Making charcoal (these two
Photo shows Dave's 12 year old daugther making charcoal.
The missing picture merely shows Andrea placing what looks like 1/2" X 2" pine boards in the retort.


weighing out the dry ingredients


They are all ball milled separately first, then combined for the final milling.


pressing the milled powder into a puck using a hydraulic press


The pressed powder-puck



Hand corning/granulating the puck in an aluminum, non sparking make shift mortar.


The granulated powder is screened, weighted and loaded in the golf ball mortar for firing.




Final results - the graph shows the average time of flight for five shots with each type of powder. Of interest is the difference between the commercial powder right out of the can and freshly screened like the newly made powders.



(THIS is enlightening, guys

NOTE - making your own explosives can be very dangerous - an explosion can easily take your life and/or that of your loved ones. To proceed in making your own powder from such little information as this, WILL BE extreemly dangerous. Much needed information is left out. I've never made powder and likely never will. My luck does not run strong enough for me to make my own powder, at this time. Perhaps your luck is similar to mine, in which case, for now, at least, you will continue to purchase it from the 'big' black powder makers like whomever makes it for Hodgdon(GOEX) or Swiss.

Daryl

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

Edited by CptCurl (19/03/12 10:04 AM)


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Tatume
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Re: Homemade bp [Re: DarylS]
      #191334 - 05/10/11 09:33 AM

Daryl, Very nice indeed! Thank you. Take care, Tom

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