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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Big Bore Rifles
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Smoke73
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Reged: 30/05/11
Posts: 164
Loc: Rocky Mtn. House Alberta
Lee enfield 45-90
      #187687 - 10/08/11 12:01 AM

Does anyone know what it would take to get a SMLE to feed and function a 45-90 Win. I understand these are quite a versatile action but to make it worthwhile I feel it would need to be an easy conversion. Any advice is good advice, thanx.

--------------------
Your not tired, you just think your tired, you don't even know what the hell tired is.- Garth Ahlstrom (Thanx Dad love ya)

"When one of them is born, their god says ' Go in peace.'
When one of us is born our Gods say "Go hunting."- J. Emmett Willie

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DarylS
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Re: Lee enfield 45-90 [Re: Smoke73]
      #187691 - 10/08/11 01:17 AM

I've once rear an article on this conversion. They converted the 10 (or 5) round box into a single stack mag. using nylon or delrin 'sticks' to take up the windage & hold the ctgs. in the middle. After that, they worked on the mag.'s lips to get it feeding right.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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DoubleD
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Re: Lee enfield 45-90 [Re: DarylS]
      #187719 - 10/08/11 12:44 PM

I have seen 45/70 conversion on this riflegun, but not 45/90. I think it might be to long to fit the action.

--------------------
DD, Ret.

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Smoke73
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Re: Lee enfield 45-90 [Re: DoubleD]
      #187722 - 10/08/11 01:02 PM

Does anything come to mind on how they did the 45-70?

--------------------
Your not tired, you just think your tired, you don't even know what the hell tired is.- Garth Ahlstrom (Thanx Dad love ya)

"When one of them is born, their god says ' Go in peace.'
When one of us is born our Gods say "Go hunting."- J. Emmett Willie

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500Nitro
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Re: Lee enfield 45-90 [Re: Smoke73]
      #187723 - 10/08/11 01:06 PM


Quite a few are done over here. I know of someone in Vic who converts them to 45/70. Because it doesn't interest me I haven't taken much notice but not sure what he does.

.

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DoubleD
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Re: Lee enfield 45-90 [Re: 500Nitro]
      #187726 - 10/08/11 02:25 PM

The only problem I ever heard about them was making the Magazine work reliably.

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DD, Ret.

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DarylS
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Re: Lee enfield 45-90 [Re: DoubleD]
      #187752 - 11/08/11 03:35 AM

It's a tossup for calibre or ctg. length, either .45/90, ie: 2.4" case, or the .45/70, ie: 2.1" case. The .303 is listed for 3.075" COL. I assume the Enfield magazine will allow that. The 2.4", .45/90 has a smaller advantage over the 2.1", .45/70 in speed than you might think.

The overall length of both rounds can be the same 3.075"- given appropriate bullets - one merely adjusts the seating depth to take advantage of the mag length. It's as easy as that, IF the chamber (and bullet) allows it. Of course, the .45/90 case will seat a 400gr. bullet to a length greater than/will a .45/70 case. The .45/70 will be maxed out with a jacketed 400gr. around 2.90", whereas the .45/90 will seat it to the full length of the magazine - a whole 1/10" more. This might mean only 75fps higher speed in the long run.

Without any leade (freebore) you cannot seat the bullet out that far and you end up with a 2.55" OAL for the .45/70, or 2.85" for the .45/90. Obviously, the 2.4" case will exceed the 2.1" for power in this shape chamber.

Put a 3/10" leade in the .45/70 chamber against a no-leade .45/90 chamber and the .45/70's OAL will be 2.85" making both rounds identical as to powder capacity and loading/velocity, etc. A 3/8" leade on the .45/70 chamber will allow a bullet length of 2.925" - getting close to absolute max - if a long-nosed bullet is used. Bullets of 430gr. or heavier might be necesary to require that long an overall length.

How the chamber is cut (design of the reamer) and what bullet is desired, will determine which ctg. is best for a given action.

The #4 action will allow virtually any 'strong action' loading if in good shape, while the #3 will be best suited to being loaded as if it was a Marlin - ie: 43,000PSI max average pressure - except - The #3 (if chambered with a 2/10" or 3/10" leade for it) will allow longer oal than a lever gun, which increases it's capacity to that of a longer case, in conjuction with the length of the freebore/leade. Some call that the throat - that is incorrect - as the throat is the tapered-height (from goove depth to the full bore diameter.

The leade/freebore is the parallel section that mostly controls the ctg's. seating depth. The angle of the throat in conjuction with the angle of the bullet's ogive also controls the seating depth - to a much lesser degree than leade/freebore.

If it was my rifle to re-barrel, I'd probably go with a .458 2" (not the .450 Marlin) with a 3/8" leade/freebore. Such is the reamer I have currently. A Lee 'Factory Crimp Die' will allow crimping any jacketed bullet - anywhere - it does not need a crimp groove. The die will make one while crimping the bullet in place. With all straight sided cases, crimping helps with ignition and ultimately, with accuracy because of it.

The reason for the .458 2" - any magnum brass can be used to make your brass. You are not confined to Hornady brass. To turning of rims and no extractor work.

.350 Rem mag, .338 WM and .458 WM need no reaming nor turning.

I've got a whack of data (35 years of it) to help out with that if desired. It also works in .45/70's in stronger actions. Not all is heavy loaded, but that's where this round shines.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

Edited by Daryl_S (11/08/11 03:45 AM)

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Smoke73
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Reged: 30/05/11
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Re: Lee enfield 45-90 [Re: DarylS]
      #187774 - 11/08/11 11:31 AM

I would agree with everything you have mentioned Daryl with one problem. I have a brand new Ron Smith gain twist chambered in 45-90 spun on a p-14 and have yet to pull the trigger as we can't get it to reliably feed. Been monkeying with it for a long time and I am growing tired of waiting. My gunsmithing buddy has a good #4 action sitting there and I know they have been successfully converted to 45-70 and some to 45-90(rumor perhaps). I would much sooner leave it on the p-14 but we can't get the cases to stop nosediving in the mag. Have tried playing with other mags with same result.

--------------------
Your not tired, you just think your tired, you don't even know what the hell tired is.- Garth Ahlstrom (Thanx Dad love ya)

"When one of them is born, their god says ' Go in peace.'
When one of us is born our Gods say "Go hunting."- J. Emmett Willie

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9.3x57
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Re: Lee enfield 45-90 [Re: Smoke73]
      #187778 - 11/08/11 12:35 PM

Quote:

I would agree with everything you have mentioned Daryl with one problem. I have a brand new Ron Smith gain twist chambered in 45-90 spun on a p-14 and have yet to pull the trigger as we can't get it to reliably feed. Been monkeying with it for a long time and I am growing tired of waiting. My gunsmithing buddy has a good #4 action sitting there and I know they have been successfully converted to 45-70 and some to 45-90(rumor perhaps). I would much sooner leave it on the p-14 but we can't get the cases to stop nosediving in the mag. Have tried playing with other mags with same result.



The P14 was notorious for feeding irregularities even in .303, and I owned some that required action mods even for that cartridge.

The mags between the P14 and the Lee-Enfield series are so totally different as to be wholly incomparable.

The correct basic nomenclature for the Lee-Enfield series is No 1 {MK1, MKIII, etc} and No. 4 {MKi, MKI*, etc, the beefed-up 1930's modified action as used in many WW2 guns} and No. 5 {"Jungle Carbine"}.

After the "Mark" to "Number" revision the P14 became the "No 3". A LEE-ENFIELD "#3" is actually a "No. 1 MKIII".

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

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Smoke73
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Reged: 30/05/11
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Re: Lee enfield 45-90 [Re: 9.3x57]
      #187781 - 11/08/11 12:59 PM

Thanx for the clarification. The alternate action would be a no.4 mark 1. Anyone know the threading difference between the p14 and no.4

--------------------
Your not tired, you just think your tired, you don't even know what the hell tired is.- Garth Ahlstrom (Thanx Dad love ya)

"When one of them is born, their god says ' Go in peace.'
When one of us is born our Gods say "Go hunting."- J. Emmett Willie

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500Nitro
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Re: Lee enfield 45-90 [Re: Smoke73]
      #187782 - 11/08/11 01:04 PM


At what point are they nose diving ?

Is it because of the rim ?

Or can they not even get to the feed ramp ?

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Smoke73
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Reged: 30/05/11
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Re: Lee enfield 45-90 [Re: 500Nitro]
      #187783 - 11/08/11 01:14 PM

As a rule they nosedive as soon as they start to travel. We tried reversing the spring in the mag but then cartridges tended to not be held up tight in the back of the box and bolt passes over. If we could find a mag box that had very even front and back pressure I think we would be away.

--------------------
Your not tired, you just think your tired, you don't even know what the hell tired is.- Garth Ahlstrom (Thanx Dad love ya)

"When one of them is born, their god says ' Go in peace.'
When one of us is born our Gods say "Go hunting."- J. Emmett Willie

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500Nitro
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Re: Lee enfield 45-90 [Re: Smoke73]
      #187784 - 11/08/11 01:24 PM


Can you bend the following so it points up a bit more at the front ?

Reason I say that is I have played around with a few mags over the last year (mostly built in but some loose mags) and that solved some feeding problems.

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Smoke73
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Reged: 30/05/11
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Re: Lee enfield 45-90 [Re: 500Nitro]
      #187785 - 11/08/11 01:35 PM

As I recall last time we played with it we opened up the front lips but as the front rose the back end settled causing bolt passover. Angles just seem to be all wrong. Level with even pressure should work but how to achieve?

--------------------
Your not tired, you just think your tired, you don't even know what the hell tired is.- Garth Ahlstrom (Thanx Dad love ya)

"When one of them is born, their god says ' Go in peace.'
When one of us is born our Gods say "Go hunting."- J. Emmett Willie

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500Nitro
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Re: Lee enfield 45-90 [Re: Smoke73]
      #187786 - 11/08/11 01:42 PM


The bottom of the Mag is on an angle, that may be the problem of trying to even out the spring.

.

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303British
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Re: Lee enfield 45-90 [Re: 500Nitro]
      #187808 - 11/08/11 11:13 PM

I have a 45-70 built on a number 4 action have a look in the Australian hunting section for some pics and results. I love it its on my never sell list! email me for more info about the build, it was done by a good mate of mine in Uralla NSW.

--------------------
Arte et Marte

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9.3x57
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Re: Lee enfield 45-90 [Re: Smoke73]
      #187813 - 12/08/11 12:17 AM

About the only solution I'm aware of {yes, besides monkeying with the feed lips} is to make a shim of sorts with a material like a piece of polyethylene chopping block and rivet it to the follower.

Just exactly why some L-E mags are finicky and some not is sometimes hard to say, even comparing an "obedient" magazine with a "disobedient" magazine. I worked with many L-E's for many years and found some smooth feeding and some total buggers. Some fed when the bolt would be operated fast or slow 100% but not the other way around.

Recognise that for the most part many mags are pretty beat up these days. The magazine, while not being strictly speaking a "detachable" mag in the sense that it was issued as such {they weren't, tho originally intended to be issued in multiples to each soldier, once the charger was refined that device took the place of the "detachable" mag} they were nonetheless a weak link in the L-E system, with feed lips easily bent and dented, etc. So, many L-E's today have magazines that are totally out of spec even for the .303 cartridge. Fortunately they can be easily bent and adjusted...and equally easily messed up...

My recommendation would be to try it all, including buying more magazines. Try swapping parts, too, and shims as well.

As for the threads between the P14 and the No 4, they are totally different.

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

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DarylS
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Re: Lee enfield 45-90 [Re: 9.3x57]
      #187819 - 12/08/11 01:33 AM

#4 threads are smaller than the P14 - NP with the conversion.-- The threaded section is also shorter as well - might need a collar to be fitted nicely to improve appearance and cover the extra thread/s. Been a long time since I did the re-barrel on the P14- .303 chamber in a .308 groove bl. - Larger than standard Mauser & square threads as well - IIRC.

As to feeding in the P-14 - the rim of a .45/90 is .068" larger than a .303 rim. To get the height right at the rear, at least that much must be removed from the action rails to raise the rim. I'd think that much would also have to be removed from the parallel - rim port in the rails too.

Ctg. nose diving sounds as if the rim is dragging heavily on the back of the mag follower.

I'd turn a rim slightly to see if that helped - maybe use a .45/70 case with a long bullet seated in it and turn the rim down to about .560" from .608" (instead of using/wrecking a .45/90 case).

Try turning the belt off a magnum case and see if that will feed from the P14 mag. The .532" rim is just a bit (.008")smaller than a .303 rim. If the mag case feeds it will show the rim alone is causing the grief.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Smoke73
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Re: Lee enfield 45-90 [Re: DarylS]
      #187827 - 12/08/11 04:29 AM

That sounds like good advice Darryl. Next chance I get I'll try that. Seem like I got so much on the go this summer I can't get to what I like.

--------------------
Your not tired, you just think your tired, you don't even know what the hell tired is.- Garth Ahlstrom (Thanx Dad love ya)

"When one of them is born, their god says ' Go in peace.'
When one of us is born our Gods say "Go hunting."- J. Emmett Willie

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DoubleD
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Re: Lee enfield 45-90 [Re: Smoke73]
      #187835 - 12/08/11 08:40 AM

Way back when when we looked a this we concluded the only way to make the 45/70 out of a box was a curved magazine...

--------------------
DD, Ret.

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Smoke73
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Re: Lee enfield 45-90 [Re: DoubleD]
      #187836 - 12/08/11 09:00 AM

Your probably not far off dd as the case does have to make the curve to chamber.

--------------------
Your not tired, you just think your tired, you don't even know what the hell tired is.- Garth Ahlstrom (Thanx Dad love ya)

"When one of them is born, their god says ' Go in peace.'
When one of us is born our Gods say "Go hunting."- J. Emmett Willie

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9.3x57
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Re: Lee enfield 45-90 [Re: Smoke73]
      #187842 - 12/08/11 12:20 PM

Actually the box magazine does not have to be curved in order to feed a .45-70 cartridge as demonstrated by the Remington Lee which preceeded the Lee .303's. It had a box magazine somewhat similar to the .303 except it was somewhat straighter than the .303 in order to accomadate the straighter .45-70 round.

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

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Smoke73
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Reged: 30/05/11
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Re: Lee enfield 45-90 [Re: 9.3x57]
      #187845 - 12/08/11 02:00 PM

Just looked at some pics of a dis-assembled Remington-Lee mag and it not hard to see why it works

Link to pic www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=22207

Lots of forward spring pressure and short lips so the cartridge has no choice but to climb.

--------------------
Your not tired, you just think your tired, you don't even know what the hell tired is.- Garth Ahlstrom (Thanx Dad love ya)

"When one of them is born, their god says ' Go in peace.'
When one of us is born our Gods say "Go hunting."- J. Emmett Willie

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Homer
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Re: Lee enfield 45-90 [Re: Smoke73]
      #187851 - 12/08/11 06:29 PM

G'Day Fella's,

Smoke 73, thanks for those images, as they help to show how the Case Rim is held and controlled behind the crimp in the magazine!

Just a thought on the cartridge for this project, why not chamber it in .450 Marlin?

Doh!
Homer

--------------------
"Beware the Lolly Pop of Mediocrity,
Lick it Once and You Will Suck Forever"

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9.3x57
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Re: Lee enfield 45-90 [Re: Homer]
      #187858 - 12/08/11 10:35 PM

Smoke;

Correct.

Read my previous post Re: shims. With the existing .303 zig-zag, they might help.

I do believe, however, that quite a number of single-stack .45-70's exist out there that feed OK. Maybe try different parts? I also wonder if you could get a spare magazine spring, cold cut a length and add it to the top of the .303 spring, rivetting it either to the bottom of the follower or to the top of the whole mag spring, this to provide additional forward support.

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

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