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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Double Rifles

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NitroX
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Reged: 25/12/02
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Double Discharge!
#4712 - 02/11/03 01:06 PM

No I haven't had one yet, at least from a rifle. Certainly have done it with a 12 gauge shottie but it wasn't too dramatic and not really not that noticeable (and none of my shotguns have rubber pads at all).

My question to the engineering double experts.

Can a double discharge damage a double rifle? Or are they designed so that a rare double discharge really isn't that dramatic except to one's shoulder.

My question is based on the vibrations on the two barrel sets where during a double discharge instead of one single set of vibrations being "unopposed" instead two opposing sets of vibrations are set in force.

Also the fact that shooting true solid bullets such as monoblocs and X-bullets is discouraged in doubles as the bullets presumably do not have enough "give" in the rifling and can cause excess vibrating and damge to the barrels and weld between the barrels.

Of course there is also the issue of double the normal recoil force on the face and the stock.

Any comments would be welcomed.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
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500Nitro
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Re: Double Discharge! [Re: NitroX]
#4713 - 02/11/03 02:07 PM

Double Discharges are mostly caused by an inexperienced Double User (or an experiecned user in a hurry !!!)
touching the rear trigger on recoil of firing the front trigger (I DO NOT subscribe to the idea of firing the rear
trigger first to over come this potential problem)
OR
the sear of the rear trigger dropping on recoil of the gun (assuming the gun does not have intercepting safety's).

I have experienced it in a 500/465 - it had done it at the range once when a friend shot it - I made a mental note but
as I had just fired 20 rounds I put it down to touching the rear trigger.
Anyway, the next tme it doubled on me was in front of a large buffalo - I knew the gun had doubled on me but the
recoil wasn't noticeably different - however it did prove that reloading practive makes perfect as I relaoded very fast
and carried on.

Will a double discharge take a gun off the face - probably over time - I wouldn't say that it does the gun any good.

IF you are ever shooting a previously unfired by you double rifle or you ever lend your gun to someone else to shoot,
load only one barrel - saves alot of embarressment if both barrels go of.

"Shooting true solid bullets such as monoblocs and X-bullets is discouraged in
doubles as the bullets presumably do not have enough "give" in the rifling"
- it is the bullets that do not have enough give in them, therefore it is the barrel that has to move more.

I don't think vibrating is an issue but damge to the barrels and WELD between the barrels is a BIG issue
which is why you shouldn't use monoblocs and X-bullets (Barnes).

Hope this helps.

500 Nitro

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mickey
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Reged: 05/01/03
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Re: Double Discharge! [Re: 500Nitro]
#4717 - 02/11/03 05:06 PM

I have never had it happen to me but saw it happen once in a .577 2 3/4. It seemed to recoil a bit more but the shooter said it was nothing as he wiped the blood from his nose.

Another friend doubled his 475#2 Holland from the bench. His thumb hit him just below the eye and blackend it. It could have been the rifle.

Both times it was a slip like 500Nitro says.

I rigged up a Halibut hook on some surgical tubing to cure the problem. One end of the tubing is wrapped around the barrels and the hook is set in the crotch. People are very concious of controlling the rifle with this training aid. It seems to have more of a mental than physical application.

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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4seventy
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Reged: 07/05/03
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Re: Double Discharge! [Re: NitroX]
#4722 - 02/11/03 10:00 PM

Whether a double's action could be damaged by a double discharge would, IMO, depend on several variables like...

How well the gun was made, ie how strong is the action design, how well are the barrels fitted to the frame, how good is the steel used and how well was it heat treated,how much wear has occurred in the bolting system over years of use, and how high is the pressure of the cartridge it is chambered for.

That said, any good quality double in sound condition and chambered for a low pressure cartridge like 450 No2 or 470 or similar should not have any problem with the action anyway.
Maybe the stock might have problems if it was doubling on a regular basis.

But say you had a crappy designed and made, badly worn double chambered in 375 H&H BELTED Magnum and shooting handloads that were running very high pressures, well, anything could happen I guess.

I know of a OU double in 500 NE built on a 12 guage frame that doubled a few times when it was first shot and it did not suffer any ill effects.
Some trigger work cured it of this nasty habbit.

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NitroX
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Re: Double Discharge! [Re: 4seventy]
#4724 - 03/11/03 12:19 AM

500nitro is right. It probably usually is when the shooter accidently pulls both triggers. That is how it happened to me with my shotgun.

Unless there is a problem with the rifle itself.

I am very used to twin triggers on doubles. In fact I can't handle a single trigger double barreled shotgun. I always end up pulling the rear of the trigger guard for the second barrel.

But it still can happen in a rush.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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500Nitro
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Re: Double Discharge! [Re: NitroX]
#4727 - 03/11/03 03:46 AM

I forgot to mention that the 500/465 that doubled turned out NOT to be due to my friend "touching"
the rear trigger on recoil but a very worn sear (with probably some bad gunsmithing to boot).

It was the first (and ONLY time) I didn't give a new gun to my gunsmith to strip, clean, check and set the
triggers (5 lbs front, 6lbs rear) BEFORE I shoot the gun or take it out hunting.

It just prooved the point of why I give him guns to check.

500 Nitro

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NitroX
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Re: Double Discharge! [Re: 500Nitro]
#17775 - 10/08/04 01:37 PM

Well it has just happened to me, TWICE!

On the shooting of my buffalo, and the follow up shot. Two double discharges.

Never has happened to me with this rifle before and later when shooting it with Marrakai at the range we were loading up only one barrel at a time on purpose and he forgot. No double discharge.

The buffalo was hit through the shoulders twice, by 960 grains of Woodleigh SPs travelling at 2150 fps.

More to come.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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mickey
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Reged: 05/01/03
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Loc: Pend Oreille Valley, Idaho

Re: Double Discharge! [Re: NitroX]
#17778 - 10/08/04 02:14 PM

In reply to:

I rigged up a Halibut hook on some surgical tubing to cure the problem. One end of the tubing is wrapped around the barrels and the hook is set in the crotch. People are very concious of controlling the rifle with this training aid. It seems to have more of a mental than physical application.

Mick

Congratulations on your semi auto Double Buffalo. Shall I send you the whole training aid or just the Halibut Hook?

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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Peterb
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Reged: 07/07/04
Posts: 288

Re: Double Discharge! [Re: mickey]
#17780 - 10/08/04 02:49 PM

Remember that there is NO pressure difference when firing two rounds instead of one. However, the force is doubled. The likeliest place to see damage is on the stock. The sideplates can cause a crack behind them. The tangs can cause cracks behind them. The wrist may crack. A well inletted stock which is then glass bedded will help keep these cracks from developing. Of course, the quality and layout of the wood is just as important.

Now for the metal. Some guns are made borderline in strength. I would be very careful with double rifles made from shotguns. There is a 3-5 times pressure difference and more force too. The old Flues shotguns sometimes crack the frame with modern ammo. This is especially true of gauges smaller than 12. In an overdesigned double rifle, the greatest problem would be with a gun off face. The looseness causes a hammering effect which greatly increases the force. Always fix off face guns. There is no "slightly" off face gun. Remove the forearm and shake the gun and this will let you know if there is looseness. It costs about $200 to have a double properly put back on face. Also, remove the barrels and thump the barrels with a pencil or something similar. Ringing is good. A dull sound is bad and means the barrels or ribs need resoldering. This most commonly happens when a gun is hot blued. It is too hot for the solder. Spanish guns may be brazed. They won't get loose in the ribs.

Personally, I am a rear trigger first kinda guy.

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Bakes
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Reged: 31/01/03
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Re: Double Discharge! [Re: NitroX]
#17784 - 10/08/04 04:49 PM

At least you got him!

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bonanza
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Reged: 17/05/04
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Loc: South Carolina

Re: Double Discharge! [Re: Bakes]
#17807 - 11/08/04 12:15 AM

A mate of mine doubled his merkel 470. Very funny. He touched off the rear trigger and the gun went staight up.

--------------------

"Speak Precisely" G. Gordon Liddy.

"Life is absurd, chaotic and we must define its purpose with our actions" Abert Camus

"I''m the dude playing a dude disguised as another dude."

"Yo! Mr. White"

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DUGABOY1
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Re: Double Discharge! [Re: bonanza]
#17808 - 11/08/04 01:08 AM

Unless there is a poor sear engagement on the second barrel that is set off by the other trigger movement, then there is no such thing as a true doubleing, a true doubleing is two shots similtaneously fired, as by pulling both triggers! What most call doubleing, is however, a very quick one, two shot, and will not damage the rifle in any way! By the time the second barrel fires, the peak pressure of the first one has eased, and this is exactly like fireing two shots in the normal manner, but quickly. Why the so-called doubleing gives the elusion of more recoil is, the second barrel fires while the rifle is in the recoil arch. If this happens whilt the rifle is pointing at a very large target, at close range, the first barrel will print where you are shooting, but the second barrel will print very high,sometimes shooting over the target all together, because it was actually fired much later than the first. All this happens so quickly, that it seems similtaneous,to the shooter, but it isn't!

If the 1,2 shots are caused by the worn sear engagement, it needs fixing, by a good gunlock smith!

--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"

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Peterb
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Reged: 07/07/04
Posts: 288

Re: Double Discharge! [Re: DUGABOY1]
#17809 - 11/08/04 01:34 AM

Many years ago, Tony Montemurra at the Sportsman's Exchange in Oxnard (of Oxnard fame) had a worker named George. George loved the thought of shooting a double rifle but had never tried one. One day at the range, he talked the owner of a 577 Nitro into shooting his double. George touched off the front trigger and the gun roared....and raised in the air...and came off his shoulder....and Georges finger brushed into the rear trigger....and...the result resembled hammering a wooden stake into the ground. Once we observed nothing was broken (George being a good buddy, we checked the gun first), we started laughing. We haven't stopped laughing after about 30 years but I don't know if George shares our opinion yet.

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mickey
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Reged: 05/01/03
Posts: 4647
Loc: Pend Oreille Valley, Idaho

Re: Double Discharge! [Re: Peterb]
#17815 - 11/08/04 02:50 AM

Was the rifle owner laughing also? I saw one rifle get away from a fellow. It was a 600 NE. It did not double but the shooter wasn't holding on tight. The rifle arced over his head and landed butt down on the concret walk. The stock shattered and the rifle fell on the side damaging the sideplate, ruining the engraving and breaking the extended tang.

No one was laughing then. The shooter made an assine comment about the stock being weak to break that easily but his Home Owners Insurance paid to re build the rifle. About $11,000.00 I think.

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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500grains
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Reged: 16/02/04
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Re: Double Discharge! [Re: mickey]
#17816 - 11/08/04 03:27 AM

That is unfortunate about the 600 breaking.

Personally I do not understand why anyone would use the rear trigger of a double first. It is counter-intuitive and invites screw-ups under pressure. Further, it partially defeats the elegant design of a double trigger system which allows the rapid firing of a 2nd shot.

If I cannot handle my double in the FRONT-TRIGGER then REAR-TRIGGER sequence, then I need more practice. However, using the front then rear order, I have had no doubling (accidental or otherwise).

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4seventy
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Re: Double Discharge! [Re: NitroX]
#17834 - 11/08/04 09:24 AM

In reply to:

Well it has just happened to me, TWICE!

John, double discharge is the result of something mechanical, something shooter, or maybe a bit of both.
There is no mystery as to why it happens.
Either the gun is to blame, you are to blame, or you are both responsable.

It is REAL BAD NEWS regardless, as it can induce bad flinching and it also leaves you with no second shot.
Your double becomes a single!

If it has never happened before when working up loads, it could mean that you are doing something different in the heat of the moment when a big Bull is in your sights!
Maybe you drank too many "flagons" with Matt the night before!

It could also mean that the wood has swelled or changed slightly in the top end humidity and on some boxlock doubles this can have an affect on the relationship between the trigger assembly and the sear levers.
Also any looseness or movement between stock and action frame can contribute to doubling.

Now is the time that you need a good set of snapcaps so you can try and determine if the gun is still doubling.
Load a live cartridge in the right barrel and a snapcap in the left.
Fire the right barrel and then try to snap the left lock.

Do this lots of times!

If the left lock fails to "snap" it means that it has already been released from firing the right barrel.
This way you can test for doubling without actually risking a true double discharge.

If you don't have snapcaps use a resized primed empty case in the left barrel, and just break the gun after firing the right barrel and see if the primer has been hit and set off on the left.

If after MANY shots with the right barrel, the left barrel always snaps, or the left barrel primer has not been hit, it would suggest that you could have been the culprit.

Either way, to totally put your mind at rest, and restore your confidence, it would be a good idea to have the sears redone and have everything else checked by a good doubles gunsmith, as well as doing the proceedure described above.

Best of luck.

Very nice bull by the way!

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8x56mn
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Re: Double Discharge! [Re: 4seventy]
#17847 - 11/08/04 02:05 PM

Gentlmen, I have been reading these post concerning doubling and a couple post indicated that using the rear trigger first is wrong. On my Merkle the front trigger has a 5-6 lb.pull and the rear has the lighter. I have been shooting the rear first. I have also been told that by shooting the rear first you were less likely to double, due to the trigger finger

not coming back and hitting the rear during recoil. Is my thinking wrong.

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NitroX
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Re: Double Discharge! [Re: 8x56mn]
#17849 - 11/08/04 04:02 PM

Gentlemen

Both of the double discharges were seemingly instantaneous, with no noticeable second "bang". In addition another hunter watching from a hundred metres or more away also did not here two bangs. I didn't even realise the second barrel had gone off though I did suspect it on the second double discharge. I believe both bullet impacts were close to each other as I did observe bullet strike on the first firing but we never really examined the lower shoulders for the entry and exit wounds, as they were generally below the water, and mud, line.

The recoil was not noticably heavy though as the story will show it did cause me to take a step back. The barrels did end up pointing in the sky too

.

At this stage I do not know if it was a mechanical error or a human one and intended on returning to try shooting the rifle with a primed round in the left barrel to see if it happens again.

The buff did drop quite dramatically when first shot.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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4seventy
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Re: Double Discharge! [Re: 8x56mn]
#17850 - 11/08/04 05:09 PM

In reply to:

I have been shooting the rear first. I have also been told that by shooting the rear first you were less likely to double, due to the trigger finger not coming back and hitting the rear during recoil. Is my thinking wrong.

8x,
No, your thinking is not wrong and the truth is that it really doesn't matter which barrel you fire first.
Yes, shooting the left barrel/rear trigger will give less chance of bumping off the other trigger duing recoil.

There is a lot to be said for correctly shaped, spaced and positioned triggers on a 2 trigger double.
My lightweight 470 kicks bloody hard but I have never bumped the rear trigger during recoil, and never doubled that gun.
(I shoot the usual way of right barrel/front trigger first.)
Also, my 470 does not have an articulated/hinged front trigger and I have never been hit by it when firing the left barrel!

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ALAN_MCKENZIE
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Reged: 24/03/04
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Re: Double Discharge! [Re: 4seventy]
#17909 - 12/08/04 09:15 PM

I saw a fella shoot a 1200 nitro express(600 NE X 2 ) just recently
The rifle was a H&H Royal Double 600 NE.
The People close to him when he fired the salvo made sure the rifle never hit the ground,checked the rifle before they checked him.
I honestly believe he was still in a state of shock 30 minutes later..
He took at least 2 steps back on firing but still had both hands on the rifle when the dust had settled much to his credit.
I am sure no one wants to follow in his footsteps.
Al

--------------------
"Dogs always bark at their master"
Sir Seretse Khama.25th June 1949

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EricD
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Reged: 27/02/04
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Re: Double Discharge! [Re: 500Nitro]
#17913 - 12/08/04 10:25 PM

In reply to:

set the
triggers (5 lbs front, 6lbs rear)

I have no doublerifle, but will undounbtably in the future! Thus my knowledge of them is limited. Can you explain to me why the front and rear triggers should have differant settings?
Further down from you post, I see another rifle has the opposite of yours: Heavier in front and lighter in the rear???

Erik D.

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4seventy
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Re: Double Discharge! [Re: NitroX]
#17944 - 13/08/04 05:37 PM

In reply to:

Either way, to totally put your mind at rest, and restore your confidence,

Nitro,
I didn't mean to suggest that you had lost confidence in your shooting or such.
I really meant that you need to be confident that your indian gentlman "Zanderbull" is not going to misbehave any more and that there will be no more "baboom"
doubling!

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atkinson6
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Re: Double Discharge! [Re: 4seventy]
#18532 - 28/08/04 06:28 AM

I have had it happen to me on two seperate ocassions with two different .470s...It is exhilerating at best and downright scary at its worst...guarenteed to get ones full attention...

Why it happens? lots of reasons.

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NitroX
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Re: Double Discharge! [Re: atkinson6]
#18550 - 28/08/04 12:32 PM

Ray

I didn't even feel it. Except for uncharacteristically having to take a step back and the barrels pointing into the sky.

The second time I knew it had happened but again was pumped up enough not to notice.

A benefit I guess of carrying some excess ballast!

I would NOT want it happening at a bench.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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AussieMike
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Re: Double Discharge! [Re: NitroX]
#18757 - 01/09/04 02:54 PM

My 470 Westley Richards doubled on a cape buffalo we were following up in thick jungle - one shot hit the point of aim and the other went high.

At the time the PH was facing down the buff's mate who was threatening to charge - I didn't notice a thing but the other buff decided to leave post haste.

For the rest of the safari I had a nagging pain going down my left arm and 12 months later had to have a damaged disc removed from my neck.

NitroX suggests that there is double the recoil force - if you consider recoil is measured by energy (rather than momentum) then the recoil is four times the energy of a single barrel discharge as the recoil velocity is doubled.

mike

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