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carpediem4570
.300 member

Reged: 28/06/08
Posts: 203
Loc: Alberta, Canada

Is 9.3x74R ENOUGH gun for Cape Buff?
#187345 - 05/08/11 11:47 AM

Hello All:

I have been doing a fair bit of reading about enough gun for Africa.

I am planning to go to Africa to hunt cape buff. This trip is still a couple of years away. I have purchased a nice little Merkel in 9.3x74R and would like to use it for hunting the cape buffalo. Everything I have read tells me that the 375 H and H is just barely big enough to kill the ants in Africa never mind the big game. Therefore I presume the 9.3 probably wouldn't even stop the ants.

I still believe the 9.3 has more than enough jam to do the job however, I would like to hear from the more experienced hands on this issue.

What do you think?

Kindest regards,

Carpediem

--------------------
Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well-preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways-Chrdonnay in one hand-Chocolate in the other-body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming "WHOO-HOO, WHAT A RIDE!!"

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CHAPUISARMES
.416 member

Reged: 16/01/08
Posts: 2908
Loc: DUBBO, NSW, AUSTRALIA

Re: Is 9.3x74R ENOUGH gun for Cape Buff? [Re: carpediem4570]
#187348 - 05/08/11 12:19 PM

Hi Carpediem,

I guess your reading articles from arm chair writers. May I suggest that you either read or watch the DVD of 'Boddington on African Rifles' by Craig Boddington in which he says that the 9.3x74 is very similar to the .375H&H and is 'Street Legal' on all animals up to Elephant in all areas of Africa.

He says that he wouldn't go after Elephant but is OK for Buffalo. There are a lot on this forum who have shot African Buffalo with the .375H&H and I have shot our Northern Asiatic Buffalo without a problem with the .375H&H.

I know they call them 'Soldier Ants' but they don't carry AK47's and I would take it with a grain of salt personally, just a load of BS.

That's my opinion for what it's worth,

Cheers and take the Merkel to Africa.

Jeff Gray

.

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Charls
.275 member

Reged: 05/05/05
Posts: 75
Loc: South Africa

Re: Is 9.3x74R ENOUGH gun for Cape Buff? [Re: CHAPUISARMES]
#187368 - 05/08/11 03:51 PM

Hi Carpediem,
In the past 3 years I have been involved with 9 buff hunts here in South Africa. Three were shot with 375's,four with 458's and two with 450/400. The 3 that were shot with the 375 required at 3 shots each and in one case, 5 shots. A cow that I shot with a 375- the first shot severed the arteries to the heart and it still ran 250m before the 2nd and 3rd shots brought it down. With the 458 and 450, 2 kills were one shot kills and with the others, back up shots killed the buffs before they ran more than 100m-150m. What I trying to say is that, in my opinion, the 375 (also read 9.3) is marginal for all but the most experienced of hunters. The chances are that it can be OK in say 70% of the time, however for that once in a lifetime opportunity rather increase your odds to say 90% by using a .400 up. By the way, I have both 9.3 and 450/400 doubles and in all my hunting life, I have never taken the 9.3 on a buff hunt, only the 450 despite me loving the 9.3. I just don't have that confidence in it.
Regards,
Charls

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93mouse
.375 member

Reged: 17/08/07
Posts: 726
Loc: Slovenia

Re: Is 9.3x74R ENOUGH gun for Cape Buff? [Re: carpediem4570]
#187369 - 05/08/11 03:52 PM

I have shot 2 buff with 9,3s. One with 62 and one with 74R. There is only 1 main reason why I used 9,3 - Confidence.

I always use just 1 rifle for all my hunting - I almost literaly (excuse my expression) sleep, eat and [Email]cr@p[/Email] with it - therefore I know the rifle and myself along in and out...truth being told I had a couple surprises on the way but they were all nice ones, according to my expectations that were abviously set too low.

Use the right bullets for the job and shoot straight - if your double is scoped you are making it up, close to (perhaps, sometimes over) scopeless big bore...IMO.

Charge (should one occur) will probably coming from close to very close - been there with 62 - you can't make a hole that big that will change buff's mind or make it run out of gas - only 2 shots count - brain or spine - again shoot straight - double doubles your chances. Charge is fast and brutal, there is no time to think just react - Your Confidence to deliver straight is The key...IMO, one day I might change my mind but untill today this is how I feel...no doubt there are better tools for the job, however I am not up to them since I dont have any - yet.

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NitroX
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Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 39201
Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...

Re: Is 9.3x74R ENOUGH gun for Cape Buff? [Re: CHAPUISARMES]
#187371 - 05/08/11 04:01 PM

NE members have used the 9.3x74R on cape buffalo.

I've used one on water buffalo, about 14 of them, but mostly cows and younger bulls. Have not doubt it would work on big bulls too, especially if one tried to avoid shots through major bones on the way in.

It may not be legal for cape buffalo everywhere.

Also it is a bit less than ideal IMO, but certainly can kill buffalo. It is not a "stopper" calibre on dangerous game, but also will stop them with good shots.

The 9.3x74R is an ideal calibre for medium game on battue or driven hunts, also for medium game brush hunts, and will stretch to game such as buffalo.

As for the .375, it has killed lots of buffalo and elephant in Africa. Don't worry about that!

Larger calibres are always better though if you have them, and/or can use them.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

Edited by NitroX (05/08/11 04:05 PM)

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doubleriflejack
.333 member

Reged: 11/11/07
Posts: 352
Loc: Oregon, U.S.A.

Re: Is 9.3x74R ENOUGH gun for Cape Buff? [Re: carpediem4570]
#187439 - 06/08/11 08:14 AM

Opinions: The 9.3x74R is, indeed, marginal for such use, though it is a wonderful caliber if used properly for what it was intended; I own and shoot three of them, one o/u scoped; the other two iron sights, and I love them. Personally, I would never go against a cape buff. with a 9.3. Indeed, should the buff charge, it is fast and brutal; no time to think, only to react. Those conditions are not the best for most hunters, unless they have extensive experience in such situations, and they enjoy living "on the edge." I have a close friend who planned his buff hunt for months. He intended taking his .450/.400, but more experienced hunters repeatedly told him, finally convincing him, to use more caution, and to take his .450, so he did. The buff charged immediately, without warning of any kind, running down into a ravine as it came for them, out of sight temporarily, and when it appeared, it was damn close. Yes, my friend shot and killed the buff, but only a few feet from where he was standing, and the PH said that he had never seen anything like it. The wife of my friend said that it took him months to recover from the shock, and for hours after it happened, my friend was speechless, all understandable. Believe me, he was very happy that he took his .450! When bad things happen, even the most fearless don't want to have only a 9.3 in their hands---at least I don't, that is certain. If you do take unnecessary risky chances, be sure your will is in proper order, for you will not be hunting deer.

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DUGABOY1
.400 member

Reged: 02/02/03
Posts: 1340
Loc: TEXAS USA

Re: Is 9.3x74R ENOUGH gun for Cape Buff? [Re: doubleriflejack]
#187557 - 08/08/11 06:24 AM

Quote:

Opinions: The 9.3x74R is, indeed, marginal for such use, though it is a wonderful caliber if used properly for what it was intended; I own and shoot three of them, one o/u scoped; the other two iron sights, and I love them. Personally, I would never go against a cape buff. with a 9.3. Indeed, should the buff charge, it is fast and brutal; no time to think, only to react. Those conditions are not the best for most hunters, unless they have extensive experience in such situations, and they enjoy living "on the edge."

It is true the 9.3X74R is indeed marginal, and is illegal in many jurisdictions for buffalo and up! The fact that it is illegal in some places doesn’t necessarily mean it is not up to the task on buffalo, in experienced hands!

Quote:

I have a close friend who planned his buff hunt for months. He intended taking his .450/.400, but more experienced hunters repeatedly told him, finally convincing him, to use more caution, and to take his .450, so he did. The buff charged immediately, without warning of any kind, running down into a ravine as it came for them, out of sight temporarily, and when it appeared, it was damn close. Yes, my friend shot and killed the buff, but only a few feet from where he was standing, and the PH said that he had never seen anything like it.

There is a huge difference between the 450/400NE 3” and a 9.3X74R double rifle where buffalo are concerned! Far more difference between these two and the power space between the 450/400NE and the .450s!

That being said I would think that your friend brained the buffalo if he was that close, or he wouldn’t have stopped him! If that is indeed the case then I ask you whet is the difference, in effect, between a 400 gr .410 bullet, and a 480 gr .458 bullet in the BRAIN of a buffalo? In fact even the 286 gr .366 bullet in that same brain?

My reasoning in the above question is, the only thing between those mentioned bullets in regard to stopping a concentrated charge at close range of a cape buffalo, when the only thing that will stop that charge is a shot to the brain! One will do as well as the other in that case.

To me the difference between the two larger (450/400 & 450) and the smaller (9.3) is the smaller of the three is more likely to wound causing a follow up, while the other two are about equal with equal bullet placement in the initial shot on the buffalo, hence the legal status in some districts for the 9.3. When the close-in stop is needed there is little to choose between the three!

In your friend’s case I doubt the buffalo would be more likely to be wounded with the 450/400NE than it would be with the 450NE! To gain much power over the 450/400NE in hunting kills without problem the biggest thing you can shoot is not a sure thing! In a close-in charge of a cape buffalo there are only two shots that are sure stoppers, and they are the brain and/or the spine. In this case the proper type of bullet in the brain or spine and either of the three, mentioned here, will do the job there! So, with these three, the one you can shoot the best is the one to use! We often see the phrase “IT IS NOT A STOPPER” when what they actually mean is “IT IS NOT A GOOD STARTER”! By that I mean most charges are STARTED by a badly place first shot, or a fairly good first shot with a rifle that is marginal. When you get down to the IN YOUR FACE encounter the bullet construction, accuracy , and knowing where to put the bullet is what makes the difference!

Quote:

The wife of my friend said that it took him months to recover from the shock, and for hours after it happened, my friend was speechless, all understandable. Believe me, he was very happy that he took his .450! When bad things happen, even the most fearless don't want to have only a 9.3 in their hands---at least I don't, that is certain. If you do take unnecessary risky chances, be sure your will is in proper order, for you will not be hunting deer.

In this case he would have been just as well armed with his 450/400NE as he was with his .450! When going into the bush with dangerous game one always needs to have his will in order, but in this case his choice wasn’t what made that unnecessary, because it was not power that got him out of trouble, but his shot placement! Either one would have done the same thing!

--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"

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93mouse
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Reged: 17/08/07
Posts: 726
Loc: Slovenia

Re: Is 9.3x74R ENOUGH gun for Cape Buff? [Re: DUGABOY1]
#187572 - 08/08/11 05:10 PM

Guys don't forget the latest bullets available - FN solids, Hydros and CN solids improve performance of smaller but faster calibers on soft tissue on body shots. While 450/400 may have its edge over 9,3 on elephant headshots it only goes - what 2050fps? IMO too slow to make tearing flesh wounds on body shots (2200fps needed).

Give me 9,3 with Hydros, Cup Point Solids or Flat Nose Solids that go 2300-2400 fps - straight, stern to stern at any angle permanent .450cal wound channel is all I need...IMO.

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hunter_angler
.300 member

Reged: 24/03/10
Posts: 104
Loc: Grand Marais, Michigan (home i...

Re: Is 9.3x74R ENOUGH gun for Cape Buff? [Re: 93mouse]
#187606 - 08/08/11 11:22 PM

The .450/400 properly loaded is 400 gr at 2150 FPS.

I have always considered the .375s and 9.3s good all-rounders for Africa. As such they are great large plains game calibers that can be used on smaller animals as well, and are capable to provide insurance and kill dangerous game, should it make an appearance. In this sense they are plenty 'nuff gun for any animal on land, anywhere in the World.

A lot of PH guides would even prefer that you use a medium bore against DG if it is what you can handle best. They are there with a .458 Lott or similar to back you up if necessary.

If it were me, though, on a dedicated buff hunt, I would go with a .400 up. The 9.3 used competently will fatally wound any animal, but a big bore will be a better stopper IMHO if you want to do it right, yourself, without backup intervention; and have full control of, and satisfaction from, the experience.

Most importantly, enjoy the hunt of a lifetime! All the best.

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chuck375
.333 member

Reged: 13/10/07
Posts: 445
Loc: Colorado Springs CO

Re: Is 9.3x74R ENOUGH gun for Cape Buff? [Re: hunter_angler]
#187656 - 09/08/11 12:27 PM

The advice I often hear is: "Take the most powerful rifle you can shoot accurately, instinctively, without being concerned about it's recoil". Not having a double rifle, my choice has become a 500 Jeffery. That being said it's taken two years and 400 full power loads through it to be able to shoot it accurately, instinctively without being concerned about the recoil lol ...

A well placed 375 bullet is always better than a poorly placed 400 or 500 bullet.

Have a great hunt!

--------------------
"There's a saying in prize fighting: Everyone's got a plan until they get hit"

Michael Douglas "The Ghost And The Darkness"

Edited by chuck375 (09/08/11 12:31 PM)

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500grains
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Reged: 16/02/04
Posts: 4732
Loc: Salt Lake City, Utah USA

Re: Is 9.3x74R ENOUGH gun for Cape Buff? [Re: carpediem4570]
#187689 - 10/08/11 01:10 AM

Quote:

I still believe the 9.3 has more than enough jam to do the job however, I would like to hear from the more experienced hands on this issue.

Sure, it will work. Shot a buff that is not spooked and place your bullet right and there will be no problem at all.

But if you goof your shot and nail him in the paunch, don't be surprised if takes another 10 rounds to bring the buff down.

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ozhunter
.400 member

Reged: 18/08/04
Posts: 1692
Loc: Sydney, Australia

Re: Is 9.3x74R ENOUGH gun for Cape Buff? [Re: 500grains]
#187732 - 10/08/11 08:27 PM

But isn't that the case with most calibres?

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carpediem4570
.300 member

Reged: 28/06/08
Posts: 203
Loc: Alberta, Canada

Re: Is 9.3x74R ENOUGH gun for Cape Buff? [Re: ozhunter]
#187831 - 12/08/11 05:32 AM

Did I ever open a can of worms. But I have to say, it’s been fun.

When I go to Africa, I plan on taking the best bullets I can load. A friend of mine used the Rhino bullet from South Africa on a Giraffe recently. He said the performance was excellent. I THINK it was from a 375 HH.

He also got a shot at a cape buffalo. I don't know the ammo. He was using a 450/400 I believe. Problem was the shot placement was off and he lost the buff.

So ladies and gentlemen, you are all correct. Within reason, it's not size that matters, it's how you use it.

.

I have been drawn for a bull moose in my area this year. The god's willing, I will take him with my Merkel. And then it will be more practice and yes, I will take the 9.3x74R to Africa to hunt buff.

As many of you have said, if the buff is charging, and you brain him, he will go down.

Now, let's talk about another cartridge. I have my gunsmith building me a DR in 45-70. As I have come to learn, this is NOT enough gun for cape buff. And as I went and bought a Baikal double rifle in 45-70 because I couldn't wait for the gunsmith to finish my project, (he's been at it for five years), I now am thinking of changing the calibre on the project.

Talking with friends and the gunsmith, I have settled on the 450 Alaskan. This round is based on the 348 case and is necked up to 458. It looks good for velocity and punch. Do you think this would work for Buff?

This is no joke. I hope the smith will be finished with the project by the time I leave for Africa in 2013.

Thank you folks for your input and I will now go look for a bigger can to handle all the worms.

By the way, the barrels will not be marked 450 Alaskan. I will mark it in the old British style; 348/450 N.E.

Kindest regards,

Carpediem

Edited by carpediem4570 (12/08/11 05:33 AM)

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hunter_angler
.300 member

Reged: 24/03/10
Posts: 104
Loc: Grand Marais, Michigan (home i...

Re: Is 9.3x74R ENOUGH gun for Cape Buff? [Re: carpediem4570]
#187841 - 12/08/11 11:53 AM

I don't know much about the .450 Alaskan but the .50 Alaskan has been used successfully for head shots on elephant. These however are essentially lever gun cartridges for shorter actions and you may still be limiting yourself in a double rifle.

If your gunsmith has already fitted .458 caliber barrels to your DR, why not ask him to chamber and regulate a .450 No.2 NE for you? This lower pressure cartridge should work fine in an action built strong enough for the .450 AK and you can use it to stop anything on Earth. A good old .45-120 with custom smokeless loads to throw 480 gr. bullets at 2100 plus FPS would also do the J.O.B.

Then your 9.3 could be your plains game and backup DG cartridge. Problem solved.

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9.3x57
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Re: Is 9.3x74R ENOUGH gun for Cape Buff? [Re: hunter_angler]
#187843 - 12/08/11 12:21 PM

Robertson seems to be a fan of the 9.3x62 on buffalo, and that one is similar enough to the 9.3x74R it would seem.

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

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DarylS
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Re: Is 9.3x74R ENOUGH gun for Cape Buff? [Re: hunter_angler]
#187869 - 13/08/11 01:05 AM

Quote:

I don't know much about the .450 Alaskan but the .50 Alaskan has been used successfully for head shots on elephant. These however are essentially lever gun cartridges for shorter actions and you may still be limiting yourself in a double rifle.

If your gunsmith has already fitted .458 caliber barrels to your DR, why not ask him to chamber and regulate a .450 No.2 NE for you? This lower pressure cartridge should work fine in an action built strong enough for the .450 AK and you can use it to stop anything on Earth. A good old .45-120 with custom smokeless loads to throw 480 gr. bullets at 2100 plus FPS would also do the J.O.B.

Then your 9.3 could be your plains game and backup DG cartridge. Problem solved.

The .450 Alaskan has a few gr. MORE capacity (Donnely - 7gr. more) than a .458 Winchester mag.

Mine,(.458Alaskan) in a bolt actioned rifle, had no problem making 2,200fps with a 500gr. Hornady at teh same presure as a .458 mag. - probably over 50,000psi. Whatever the .458 Win.Mag. will do, so-will the .450 Alaskan. Originally, it was a lever rifle ctg. Originally, the .45/70 was a single shot ctg. What the round was originally, does not prevent them from being used in other actions, of course. Such is the case of the .450 Alaskan.

In a DR, I'd go with a longer case for Africa. With safe loads for a DR- say around 40,000psi/cup or whatever, I'd think the .450 Alaskan would easily do about 2,100fps to 2,150fps with a 450 solid.

It's short, and due to the bottlenecked case, has less powder compression issues than the .458 Win Mag.

Edited by CptCurl (15/08/11 05:31 AM)

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DarylS
.700 member

Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26488
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...

Re: Is 9.3x74R ENOUGH gun for Cape Buff? [Re: 9.3x57]
#187870 - 13/08/11 01:11 AM

Quote:

Robertson seems to be a fan of the 9.3x62 on buffalo, and that one is similar enough to the 9.3x74R it would seem.

Factory loads are about identical. The 9.3x62 can be handloaded higher, of course, for stronger bolt guns. it also has a much less tapered case, which reduces bolt thrust in the same manner as the Ackley Improved rounds. The 9.3x62 was way ahead of it's time.

--------------------
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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carpediem4570
.300 member

Reged: 28/06/08
Posts: 203
Loc: Alberta, Canada

Re: Is 9.3x74R ENOUGH gun for Cape Buff? [Re: DarylS]
#187880 - 13/08/11 02:53 AM

Now Gentlemen:

Comes the problem I am facing. The DR my gunsmith is putting together is built on a Baikal 20 guage action and as I understand it, is limited to approximately 32,000 CUP. This is why I am calling it a 348/450 NE and not a 450 Alaskan. I don't believe this action would be able to withstand the full load of a 450 Alaskan.

And as for the 50 Alaskan, I would switch barrels out ina heart beat but for the same problem.

Comments, questions and criticisms most welcome.

Kind regards,

Carpediem

--------------------
Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well-preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways-Chrdonnay in one hand-Chocolate in the other-body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming "WHOO-HOO, WHAT A RIDE!!"

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hunter_angler
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Reged: 24/03/10
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Loc: Grand Marais, Michigan (home i...

Re: Is 9.3x74R ENOUGH gun for Cape Buff? [Re: carpediem4570]
#187885 - 13/08/11 05:01 AM

Again, I think in your double you are limiting yourself by chambering for short-cased cartridges designed for lever guns, which to achieve dangerous game stopping potential would have to be loaded to higher pressures than what will be safe in your DR. I don't question the potential of these rounds in the right actions; I own levers in .348 WIN, .45-70 and .50-110 WIN myself. The full length .50-110 case has even more capacity than the .50 Alaskan, which like the .450 AK uses a blown-out .348, which itself is essentially a trimmed back, tapered .50-110. +P loads with modern powders in these calibers really rock. It's just that in a DR you are limited to lower pressure, but not in cartridge overall length.

With your CUP limitation you may want to chamber in .45-120 and handload. The 3 1/4 inch case length will give you more capacity to achieve higher energy levels with less pressure. You're not going to be able to use factory loads anyway unless you use milder .45-70 ammo safe for trapdoor Springfields. An action strong enough to handle up to just 40,000 or so CUP would give you so much more potential.

How far along is this project and how much is it going to cost? You don't have to answer that question, but as much as I love custom guns myself, just keep the Baikal as a 20 bore bird gun, buy a Sabatti .470 NE for $5K, have your gunsmith check it out/fine tune it, and be done with it. Coupled with the 9.3x74R you will have a great two gun battery for Africa! No concerns about having enough gun for any situation.

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JabaliHunter
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Re: Is 9.3x74R ENOUGH gun for Cape Buff? [Re: hunter_angler]
#187896 - 13/08/11 08:36 PM

I would rather take a .400 (.450/.400NE, .404 or .416) or a .458 (or .450NE), but if someone is backing you up just in case things go pear shaped, then I see no reason not to use the 9,3x74. I would not use one in really thick jess though. JMHO

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DarylS
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Re: Is 9.3x74R ENOUGH gun for Cape Buff? [Re: JabaliHunter]
#187906 - 14/08/11 03:27 AM

To get DG ballistics at 32,000 PSI or less, I'd be going .50 3 1/4". That will give you a 500gr. to 520gr. at 2,100fps, maybe 2,150fps. With a premium bullet, it would work just fine on about anything.

I would not go with the .45 3 1/4", unless there are some powders or loads I'm not familiar with or can't remember the loads. I am seeing loads in the 1,850fps range at 30,000psi with 500gr. lead bullets.

If allowed 40,000 - then OK for .45 cal. If not, it'd be .50 for me. Too - the 3 1/4" case is better ballanced for .50, than .45.

I am thinking in terms of ease of finding accurate loads and consistancy of those loads, shot to shot uniformity - important in a DR, I'd think.

I've never had a ctg. DR - but have worked with both 3 1/4" cases, .45 and .50 in single shot rifles. The .50 was much easier to find accurate, consistant loads with both smokeless powder and black.

--------------------
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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carpediem4570
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Posts: 203
Loc: Alberta, Canada

Re: Is 9.3x74R ENOUGH gun for Cape Buff? [Re: DarylS]
#187911 - 14/08/11 05:03 AM

I have no idea how far the project is in its progresion. My gunsmith, when asked when it will be done just keeps saying soon. That's five years of soon. He's a bit of a lazy cuss but he is extremely good at what he does. And I am not the only one. He treats everyone the same.

Having said all that, I do not believe the barrel soldering for regulation has started. I asked him if we could switch out the barrels for 50 calibre and he said "of course".

I am seriously contemplating switching to 50 calibre however, I don't know if this will have an improved performance on the guns hitting power.

Comments, questions and criticisms always welcome.

Kind regards,

Carpediem

--------------------
Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well-preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways-Chrdonnay in one hand-Chocolate in the other-body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming "WHOO-HOO, WHAT A RIDE!!"

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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
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Re: Is 9.3x74R ENOUGH gun for Cape Buff? [Re: carpediem4570]
#187920 - 14/08/11 08:56 AM

OPh yeah - I've held to the premise that bigger is ALWAYS better, unless bigger means too much drop in speed to do that particular job.

--------------------
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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hunter_angler
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Re: Is 9.3x74R ENOUGH gun for Cape Buff? [Re: DarylS]
#187924 - 14/08/11 09:30 AM

Quote:

To get DG ballistics at 32,000 PSI or less, I'd be going .50 3 1/4". That will give you a 500gr. to 520gr. at 2,100fps, maybe 2,150fps. With a premium bullet, it would work just fine on about anything.

I would not go with the .45 3 1/4", unless there are some powders or loads I'm not familiar with or can't remember the loads. I am seeing loads in the 1,850fps range at 30,000psi with 500gr. lead bullets.

I have a single shot Winchester 1885 in .50-140 (3 1/4") and it is a great cartridge, and a viable option if your gunsmith has still not fitted your barrels. However, it is somewhat debatable if 500 gr. at 2100 FPS in .50 caliber is really DG ballistics as the sectional density of a .510 bullet of this weight is considerably less than that of a .458 projectile of the same mass. You might be just as well off with a 500 gr .45 caliber bullet at 250 FPS lower velocity, or with the original DG standard 480 gr. pushed even faster; and with what i would assume is a relatively lightweight 20 gauge Baikal action, the recoil should be less punishing. Bigger is not always better, without adjusting other factors.

And again, the .450 No. 2 NE which uses, I believe essentially a .50 caliber case necked down to .45, would be an option if you want a bit more capacity than the straight .45-120 case would give you.

However, if your gunsmith has not yet even started on your barrels, and if it is a DG rifle you are after, I would still seriously consider taking a different route as per my post above. Just my $.02.

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Re: Is 9.3x74R ENOUGH gun for Cape Buff? [Re: hunter_angler]
#187953 - 15/08/11 08:59 AM

I understand where you're coming from, but I must disagree, hunter angler. A 500gr. .50cal. premium bullet will be better than the slower moving .45 cal. I'm quite sure. How much better, probalby dones't mattermuch, but it will be flatter shooting - ie: lower midrange.

I believe the high SD's bullets were necessary when bullet integrity was lacking, copared to today. Now, lower SD bullets out do the old high SD bullets, sold or soft.

A 500gr. .510cal. bullet has a SD of .27462, while a 400gr. .458 has a SD of .27241. A 550gr. .510" has a SD of .302. That one should make 2,100fps about. will 50gr. weight make any difference if it is solid copper? I doubt it, but do not know.

Those lower numbers are pretty much the same as a 270gr. .375.

Thinking back a couple years to Brian Pierce's trip to Africa and the 2 cape buffalo (bull and cow) he killed with one shot (4 shoulders) with the 400gr. copper solid making 1,750fps - I have to think a 500gr. from the .50 at well over 2,100fps just might be OK & better yet due to a flatter shooting load.

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Daryl

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NitroX
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Re: Is 9.3x74R ENOUGH gun for Cape Buff? [Re: DarylS]
#266016 - 06/06/15 10:02 PM

Was just looking at this older thread. I've got a vintage photo a friend posted elsewhere on the net last month to post if I can find it. I got excited because it showed a hunter using his Stutzen Mannlicher-Schoenauer carbine to shoot cape buffalo. Now I got excited because I thought it was a 6.5mm and remembered 'fondly' the reaction from some on NE when I posted a friend was going to use his 6.5 M-S on water buffalo. It turned out the rifle was chambered for 9.5x57, the .375 diameter of the 57 mm case. Very buffalo capabale.

The .318 Westley Richards was considered a good cape buffalo killer, which is a .330 on a .30-06 sized case more or less. The 8x60S or a slightly lengthened 57 mm case with a .323 calibre bullet was a big buffalo killer. A lot of landowners and farmers used such rifles, could not afford a fancy .416 Rigby etc etc.

Bell reserved his .275 Rigby (7x57) for elephant and used his .256 (6.5x54) for buffalo.

I always think the main reason there is minimum calibres/cartridges for dangerous game is due to a mixed number of factors:
- adds to the mystique of dangerous game and Africa;
- authorities consider deaths of clients to be negative for industry sales (actually wrong, a clients death adds to sales, but not for the particular outfitter);
- probably to compensate for the bad shooting and aiming akills of the majority of clients.

BUT it is true, as experienced people will tell you, who have used marginal or minor calibres a lot, when the shit hits the fan, having a stopper sized rifle is a big bonus, to stay alive, confidence building, and if shot well very effective.

Funny, I would lack some confidence hunting elephant with a 9.3x74R, never done it. Would fell better with a .375 H&H with the right bullets. The elephant I shot would have died just as quickly with a .375 300 gr FMJ as with the .450 480 gr FMJ. Both were frontal brain shots. But when you can see an elephant waiting behind a tree to ambush you as soon as you come around it at 8 yards, a .450 is confidence building. Actually for the above 8 yard shot, a .600 NE would be the best confidence builder!

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AZDAVE
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Re: Is 9.3x74R ENOUGH gun for Cape Buff? [Re: NitroX]
#266034 - 07/06/15 05:07 AM

Just got back from a safari and shot my buff with a 450NE. I also took a really nice eland and sable with my 9.3x74 double with 300 gr swift A-frames. I would hesitate to hunt cape buff with a 9.3x74R with the understanding that the 9.3 is a killing round like the 375H&H but not a stopping round. The eland I shot was at 85yards and the bullet went through both shoulders heart and lungs. The old blue bull went 10 yards into the bush came right back out and fell over. From bang to it being on the ground was like 10 seconds. With buff you really need to make sure of your shot placement don't care if it is a 9.3 of a 600NE it is when they get wounded with a non fatal shot that they transform into the legendary Black Death.

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NitroX
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Re: Is 9.3x74R ENOUGH gun for Cape Buff? [Re: AZDAVE]
#266039 - 07/06/15 07:11 AM

https://www.facebook.com/259588134165089/videos/291404850983417/

To add to the debate. When a marginal or less than stopper rifle is not adequate. Aaron Neilson using a .577 NE double rifle on a close call on a cape buffalo.

Sorry about it being a facebook video but that is the source.

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Ash
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Re: Is 9.3x74R ENOUGH gun for Cape Buff? [Re: NitroX]
#266045 - 07/06/15 09:48 AM

I want a 9.3x74r because (with 0 experience, going off ballistics alone) it's plenty capable for anything in this world. Maybe it's the skinny cases, rather than the bullet diameter, that puts people off?

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ozhunter
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Re: Is 9.3x74R ENOUGH gun for Cape Buff? [Re: Ash]
#266150 - 09/06/15 10:23 AM

The 9.3x74flanged and its bolt rifle version the 9.3x62 are fantastic rounds and quite capable for buffalo sized game

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Sunshine
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Re: Is 9.3x74R ENOUGH gun for Cape Buff? [Re: ozhunter]
#308840 - 09/12/17 05:24 AM

Dr. Kevin ‘Doctari’ Robertson killed more than 600 buffalo with a 9,3 x 62.
Just invite me for a buffalo hunt and I’ll take my 9,3 x 74R along. Same performance like a 9,3 x 62. Nothing else do I need.

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xausa
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Re: Is 9.3x74R ENOUGH gun for Cape Buff? [Re: Sunshine]
#308859 - 09/12/17 09:14 PM

I have never driven a motorcycle. Risking my life on a contraption which offers no protection in case of an accident is just not my cup of tea. Currently my chief means of transportation is a Ford Taurus station wagon and I am a much more careful driver than I was forty-five years ago when I entrusted myself and my passenger to a frail wood framed sports car, a Morgan, whose only concession to safety was a roll bar and attached seat belts.

I have shot buffalo with both a .458 Winchester Magnum and a .505 wildcat cartridge of my own design which duplicates the performance of a .500 NE in a bolt rifle. My preference is for the latter.

I once killed three buffalo with four shots in less than a minute using my .505. I might conceivably have done the same with the .458, but for me the choice was easy. The .505 simply gave me more latitude for error, where a 6.5X54 gives practically none at all.

One of my best friends was out for a Sunday spin on his beloved motorcycle when he rounded a curve and was met head on by a teenager driving his car on the wrong side of the road. He left behind him a wife, a son and a brilliant legal career. If he had been driving the family sedan he would have in all likelihood survived.

My choice of a cartridge to use on dangerous game is governed by how much recoil I can take. I abandoned an experimental bolt action .577 because the recoil forced me to take two steps back after each shot, and I realized that such an option may not exist in a tight spot with dangerous game.

Each hunter (and driver) must make up his own mind the size of risk he is willing to take, bearing in mind that he is risking not only his own life, but potentially those of his companions.

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Sarg
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Re: Is 9.3x74R ENOUGH gun for Cape Buff? [Re: xausa]
#308865 - 10/12/17 08:19 AM

Quote:

I have never driven a motorcycle. Risking my life on a contraption which offers no protection in case of an accident is just not my cup of tea. Currently my chief means of transportation is a Ford Taurus station wagon and I am a much more careful driver than I was forty-five years ago when I entrusted myself and my passenger to a frail wood framed sports car, a Morgan, whose only concession to safety was a roll bar and attached seat belts.

I have shot buffalo with both a .458 Winchester Magnum and a .505 wildcat cartridge of my own design which duplicates the performance of a .500 NE in a bolt rifle. My preference is for the latter.

I once killed three buffalo with four shots in less than a minute using my .505. I might conceivably have done the same with the .458, but for me the choice was easy. The .505 simply gave me more latitude for error, where a 6.5X54 gives practically none at all.

One of my best friends was out for a Sunday spin on his beloved motorcycle when he rounded a curve and was met head on by a teenager driving his car on the wrong side of the road. He left behind him a wife, a son and a brilliant legal career. If he had been driving the family sedan he would have in all likelihood survived.

My choice of a cartridge to use on dangerous game is governed by how much recoil I can take. I abandoned an experimental bolt action .577 because the recoil forced me to take two steps back after each shot, and I realized that such an option may not exist in a tight spot with dangerous game.

Each hunter (and driver) must make up his own mind the size of risk he is willing to take, bearing in mind that he is risking not only his own life, but potentially those of his companions.

What a great post, as usual love it & very true !

The 9.3X74 is just as good or some times better than a H&H375, had lots of my hunters kill Buffalo-Bantang with them & I have been very impressed !

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500Boswell
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Re: Is 9.3x74R ENOUGH gun for Cape Buff? [Re: Sarg]
#308869 - 10/12/17 11:39 AM

If it was me I would keep the 9.3x74 for plains game that's its Forte ,its about faith and having confidence in the gun you are using ,you don't want doubts,if you do, things are more likely to go to crap .You can get a relatively cheap CZ ,Mark X in 458 Win Mag, make up your own loads with premium projectiles and you have something you have confidence in, and know is adequate ,and doesn't kick like hell ,its about responsibility too ,if the buffalo bolts after being hit the PH then has to deal with it , a story a PH told me about a wounded buffalo he had to deal with was not pleasant, after what happened to him and he nearly lost his arm .

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Ripp
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Re: Is 9.3x74R ENOUGH gun for Cape Buff? [Re: Sarg]
#308870 - 10/12/17 12:45 PM

Quote:

Quote:

I have never driven a motorcycle. Risking my life on a contraption which offers no protection in case of an accident is just not my cup of tea. Currently my chief means of transportation is a Ford Taurus station wagon and I am a much more careful driver than I was forty-five years ago when I entrusted myself and my passenger to a frail wood framed sports car, a Morgan, whose only concession to safety was a roll bar and attached seat belts.

I have shot buffalo with both a .458 Winchester Magnum and a .505 wildcat cartridge of my own design which duplicates the performance of a .500 NE in a bolt rifle. My preference is for the latter.

I once killed three buffalo with four shots in less than a minute using my .505. I might conceivably have done the same with the .458, but for me the choice was easy. The .505 simply gave me more latitude for error, where a 6.5X54 gives practically none at all.

One of my best friends was out for a Sunday spin on his beloved motorcycle when he rounded a curve and was met head on by a teenager driving his car on the wrong side of the road. He left behind him a wife, a son and a brilliant legal career. If he had been driving the family sedan he would have in all likelihood survived.

My choice of a cartridge to use on dangerous game is governed by how much recoil I can take. I abandoned an experimental bolt action .577 because the recoil forced me to take two steps back after each shot, and I realized that such an option may not exist in a tight spot with dangerous game.

Each hunter (and driver) must make up his own mind the size of risk he is willing to take, bearing in mind that he is risking not only his own life, but potentially those of his companions.

What a great post, as usual love it & very true !

The 9.3X74 is just as good or some times better than a H&H375, had lots of my hunters kill Buffalo-Bantang with them & I have been very impressed !

Agree 100% with everything said here..

Have also used 416 and 375 on buffalo-have to say given the choice, I will always stick with the 416 or larger...

There is a NOTICEABLE difference hitting them with the 416 vs the 375 in my experience..

BTW, this is coming from someone who does ride a Harley ..

Ripp

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NitroX
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Re: Is 9.3x74R ENOUGH gun for Cape Buff? [Re: Ripp]
#308881 - 10/12/17 06:24 PM

I'd be happy to use a 8x68S with 250 gr projectiles on buffalo. Can't do it for cape buffalo but may give it a try on water buffalo one of these days.

Same as I'd love to use a .318 Westley Richards with 250 gr projectiles for the same.

Pretty sure it will all go OK.

In reality all these and the 9.3x62 are in the same class of power as a 9.3x74R.

Now having had a water buffalo want to kill me last hunt I did, yes a .450 might be better. Except I probably would have hit the buffalo better at the range when he was lying down at a distance. And also stood up. Maybe even shot him better with the first shot, when his chest was partially covered by another buff's head in the way.

Now there is NO DOUBT I would have been far less happy when pushing through the saplings with one metre to three metres visibility ... then the .450 DR was FAR preferable.

My .375 and .404 would also be great and even better choices. I still do like the .450 for buffalo though.

PS The 10-bore WR DR is what is supposed to get the first nod next time.

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John aka NitroX

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Rule303
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Re: Is 9.3x74R ENOUGH gun for Cape Buff? [Re: Ripp]
#308883 - 10/12/17 06:26 PM

I have only taken one Buffalo and that was with a 416 Rigby. Just my history. Would I use a 9.3 X64 -The closest a 9.3 get to the 375 and there is still a gap between them- on a Buff. No. Not now. If I had one and used it as much as I did the 308, 30-30, 303 and 270 in my younger years then probably would but it would be loaded with Woodleigh Hydros.

What it comes down to is, are you very competent and confident with the rifle and cartridge?

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Sarg
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Re: Is 9.3x74R ENOUGH gun for Cape Buff? [Re: Rule303]
#308888 - 10/12/17 08:29 PM

Plenty of country's where you can use less than a 375H&H for Cape Buff, kind of rural myth this .375
minimum !

We have shot a bunch of Cape Buff with the 8X68S, I hate that cartridge myself but mostly the projectiles are wrong & the rifles it is chambered in I suppose !

Must add I like .45+ for Dangerous Game & yes big step up from 9.3/.375 to .416 & again to .45 then .50 .

I have shot hundreds of Water Buffalo with 308 & 30/06 when working for the meat works, all head shots with ex Mil ammo, back in the day !

Edited by Sarg (10/12/17 08:30 PM)

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Postman
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Re: Is 9.3x74R ENOUGH gun for Cape Buff? [Re: Sarg]
#308890 - 11/12/17 12:14 AM

If the buff dies, well then, it was enough cartridge. The question remains however, “why would one select a cartridge one knows is marginal for the job when there are so many other better and cost effective alternatives?”

It is a killer, no one would dispute that, but a stopper it ain’t.

Sky diving, motorcycle racing in heavy traffic, untethered high wire acts, swimming with sharks, and a whole host of other high risk endeavors may be fun, but if you get bit, that’s on you. Don’t expect the blood thirsty crowds to be sympathetic when it all goes pear shaped.

Edited by Postman (11/12/17 12:15 AM)

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Rule303
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Re: Is 9.3x74R ENOUGH gun for Cape Buff? [Re: Sarg]
#308908 - 11/12/17 08:39 AM

Slightly off topic. Sarg, I love the 8x68S but then I have it chambered in a good rifle, can seat the projectiles out where they should be - not seated deep into the powder space - and use the Woodleigh projectiles designed for its MV and Hydros. Only shot pigs with it so far. My history with it.

Just interested in what bullets and rifles yours were?

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NitroX
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Re: Is 9.3x74R ENOUGH gun for Cape Buff? [Re: Sarg]
#308916 - 11/12/17 04:10 PM

Quote:

Plenty of country's where you can use less than a 375H&H for Cape Buff, kind of rural myth this .375
minimum !

We have shot a bunch of Cape Buff with the 8X68S, I hate that cartridge myself but mostly the projectiles are wrong & the rifles it is chambered in I suppose !

Yes but it is the minimum standard for all countries. Though some have other minimums.

Which countries allow the 8x68S? Mozambique, Namibia? What is the standard/rules there?

For some reason German ammo makers often use some really silly projectiles. For example, Ithe Conepoint or Kegelsptiz. I shot the 300 gr KS in my .375 and it must have been flying like lightening. Also a tiny one hole three shot group at 100 metres. But a useless bullet.

In the 8x68S there is the KS and also a soft RWS SP. The TUG or H-Mantel might be better but probably not the H-Mantel for buffalo.

I would use a 220 gr A-frame or try the 250 gr Woodleigh RNSP. Plus FMJ's in reserve.

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Sarg
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Re: Is 9.3x74R ENOUGH gun for Cape Buff? [Re: Rule303]
#308921 - 11/12/17 10:16 PM

Rule303, I have seen a great many animals wounded with the 8X68, most likely more than you have killed

Some days my clients & I might shoot 5 or more big game animals !

When I worked in Zim it was a European rifle of some sort, I think a Carl Gustav with a Hog back stock, booted your face in as I remember & all those Euro projectiles, a few others when working in other country's & the last couple of years in South Africa with a German Weatherby & again different sorts of ammo, some worse than others, TUGs & H mantel for sure, still I don't like the .270 either for the same reason !

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Sarg
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Re: Is 9.3x74R ENOUGH gun for Cape Buff? [Re: NitroX]
#308922 - 11/12/17 10:57 PM

I think .375 only minimum in Tanzania, Zambia & C.A.R !

The rest have different standards, some on energy, some calibers & some on common sense, where I work in SA .375 is only recommended not a law & yes you can use 8X68 in Namibia & Mozambique, Ethiopa, Benin, Burkina Faso, Cameroon, Congo is a maybe (Dwarf Buff) not sure on Zim maybe 9.3 there, a lot depends on your PH !

As I understand & have been told any way, but rules change both ways & many countries that have now stopped hunting may have had .375 min rules eg Kenya-Sudan-Somalia-Chad ?

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Rule303
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Re: Is 9.3x74R ENOUGH gun for Cape Buff? [Re: Sarg]
#308933 - 12/12/17 09:41 AM

Quote:

Rule303, I have seen a great many animals wounded with the 8X68, most likely more than you have killed

Some days my clients & I might shoot 5 or more big game animals !

When I worked in Zim it was a European rifle of some sort, I think a Carl Gustav with a Hog back stock, booted your face in as I remember & all those Euro projectiles, a few others when working in other country's & the last couple of years in South Africa with a German Weatherby & again different sorts of ammo, some worse than others, TUGs & H mantel for sure, still I don't like the .270 either for the same reason !

Sarg not saying you have not seen it used on a lot of animals. Re the 270, I have shot a shit load of animals with it and have never experienced these truck loads of wounding. I have had one wounding that should have been a kill shot with the 270. The first of the Nosler ballistic tipped Solid Base projectiles. Never used that projectile again. I suspect what you have witnessed is the ammunition. I ran some RWS 200grain through the chrony. MV was around 250fps less then my home loads. Bloody pathetic loads from the factory, same with some 270 loads.

The 8X57 has killed a more game than you and I will ever see, and it does not seem to wound like a ballistic superior cartridge. Same the 280 which is .007" bigger than a 270 does not seem to wound game as much. I have a mate here who has shot a truck load of animals with the 8X68s, no complaints from him or Carl Stumpfe, a PH in Namibia.

What I am saying here is I do not believe it is the calibre/cartridge at fault. I believe the fault lies with the actual bullet/powder combination used on the day and/or the shooter. These are the reasons I loathed the 243 for years when I first started hunting.

Edited by Rule303 (12/12/17 11:06 AM)

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Sarg
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Re: Is 9.3x74R ENOUGH gun for Cape Buff? [Re: Rule303]
#308936 - 12/12/17 12:54 PM

I think what you say is true as I believe the same but it doe's happen, making them suspect, same for 8mm Rem Mag, should be awesome but, wrong bullets & bad shooting in both, story of a guides live !

8X57 good, great if reloaded, .280 is great also (if you don't like recoil, big .30's are better for these jobs IMO) & strangely the 270 Weatherby has been a wonder killer, Deer-Antelope die like lighting, must have the bullet matching the speed on this one !

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Rule303
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Re: Is 9.3x74R ENOUGH gun for Cape Buff? [Re: Sarg]
#308941 - 13/12/17 01:23 AM

Sarg, agree. What i also should have added is: I believe Jack O'Connor sold the 270 short by using the 130 grain bullet weight. I find the 140 to be more emphatic and only slightly slower then the 130. The 140 also holds velocity and trajectory better than the 130 for longer shots.

Re the 8mm's. Woodleigh make a 196 grain bullet for the 8x57 and 8x64 they make a 200 grain bullet for the 325WSM, 8X68s type velocities. Use the 196 grain in a big 8 and the performance will be wounding rather than fatal I feel. Their 220 goes well in the 8X68s.

Nitrox, Namibia do not have a min cal but a min Muzzle energy.

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szihn
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Re: Is 9.3x74R ENOUGH gun for Cape Buff? [Re: Rule303]
#308944 - 13/12/17 03:46 AM

"the 270 Weatherby has been a wonder killer, Deer-Antelope die like lighting, must have the bullet matching the speed on this one !"

I have found this to be just as true with the standard 270 Winchester.

I also agree that the 270 is best with the heavier bullets, mostly 150s but I have used some 140s from time to time, and I have had excellent results with 160s too.

I started with 130s Waaaaay back in the early 70s and I found within a few years that the 150 did everything the 130 did better.
That's not to say the well made 130s were bad, but just that the 150s were better.

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Ahmed577
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Re: Is 9.3x74R ENOUGH gun for Cape Buff? [Re: Sarg]
#308956 - 13/12/17 09:39 PM

Very well said.

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Rell
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Re: Is 9.3x74R ENOUGH gun for Cape Buff? [Re: Ahmed577]
#308974 - 14/12/17 08:58 AM

I successfully used 303 and 215gr solids on a bunch Savanah buffalo in Ghana many years ago.

I’d be much happier with a 9.3x74r double then that Lee Enfield, that is for sure.

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450-400, 9.3x74r and 7x65r.

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