r3hawk
.224 member
Reged: 30/07/11
Posts: 13
Loc: CA
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Hello everyone, I'm new here so I thought I'd start off with some background info. Been shooting big bore handguns for years. Started off with 44 Magnums and worked my way up to a 500 S&W. About four months ago I got my first big bore rifle, a 460 Weatherby Magnum. I've put over a hundred rounds through it so far and I love it. See videos here: YouTube The thing is that now I want to step up to something a lot bigger.
Talked it over with my gunsmith and we decided to do a 600 Overkill build on a CZ 550 magnum action. The action is already on order from CZ with the 505 Gibbs boltface. Would like everyone's opinion on the rest of the build. I'm thinking of going with a dangerous game rifle theme with a synthetic stock and a fairly short barrel on the order of 18 or 20 inches.
I Photoshopped this picture of a CZ 550 with a McMillan stock and 18 inch barrel to get an idea of what it would look like. Any thoughts?
Edited by CptCurl (01/08/11 09:29 PM)
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VonGruff
.400 member
Reged: 08/02/09
Posts: 1119
Loc: South Otago, New Zealand.
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Left handed stock on right handed action?? That deliberate or photoshop mishap.
Von Gruff.
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Von Gruff.
Exodus 20:1-17
Acts 4:10-12
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Ben
.400 member
Reged: 22/08/08
Posts: 1917
Loc: Northern Territory, Australia
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Have fun! Projects are great!
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r3hawk
.224 member
Reged: 30/07/11
Posts: 13
Loc: CA
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Von Gruff, I flipped the stock in Photoshop to match the action. Just trying to get a general idea of the look. Though now that I think about it a left handed bolt in a right handed stock would probably be a better idea. I've had the bolt handle on the Weatherby cut my hand on recoil before.
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chuck375
.333 member
Reged: 13/10/07
Posts: 445
Loc: Colorado Springs CO
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Why on earth would you need more than a 505 Gibbs? This is coming from someone who owns a 500 Jeffery ...
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"There's a saying in prize fighting: Everyone's got a plan until they get hit"
Michael Douglas "The Ghost And The Darkness"
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kamilaroi
.400 member
Reged: 18/12/04
Posts: 1803
Loc: sydney, new south wales, Austr...
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IMO build a 500 Jeffrey with a 20 inch barrel. (the J. Taylor option)
Edited by kamilaroi (01/08/11 04:47 PM)
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Ben
.400 member
Reged: 22/08/08
Posts: 1917
Loc: Northern Territory, Australia
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This is never about need, it is about enjoying life your way, so if it is a dream of yours, go for it!
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r3hawk
.224 member
Reged: 30/07/11
Posts: 13
Loc: CA
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Guess I should have mentioned why I want to build this rifle.
It's strictly going to be a range time fun gun. Something that will draw a crowd when I bring it out. The 460 Weatherby is fun, but it doesn't look that impressive. I figure the 600 Overkill in a lightweight rifle should get me the most impressive recoil. At least in a rifle I can afford. Would really like to get a double 4 bore eventually.
That being said. Any thoughts on the barrel length and stock colors?
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chuck375
.333 member
Reged: 13/10/07
Posts: 445
Loc: Colorado Springs CO
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I assumed it was for fun, but my 500 Jeffery is all the fun I can stand lol... Good luck and have great fun with it!
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"There's a saying in prize fighting: Everyone's got a plan until they get hit"
Michael Douglas "The Ghost And The Darkness"
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DarylS
.700 member
Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 27688
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
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Have fun - make sure your medical insurance covers recoil-induced retina dislocations.
Oh yeah, in the States, everyone has the same wonderful insurance now or do they?
When I was 23 yrs. old, I fired an 8 1/2 pound .505 Barnes Supreme. It launched a 600gr. Barnes bullet using 125gr. IMR3031 (apparently) but I didn't check the load data. Upon pulling the trigger, I saw lights flashing at the shot - which I'm told is caused by the retina being pulled loose from the eyeball. 1/2 hour later, I went back to shooting my .375H&h and it felt like a match weight .222.
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Daryl
"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V
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r3hawk
.224 member
Reged: 30/07/11
Posts: 13
Loc: CA
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I do wonder what the recoil will be like. I find my Weatherby is pretty tame launching a 500 grain bullet at 2700 ft/s out of a 9 1/2 pound rifle. The 600 Overkill launches a 900 grain bullet at around 2300 ft/s. Not sure what the actual weight will end up being, but I figure around 8 1/2 pounds. I know this will be a considerable increase in recoil, but I'm not really worried about it causing actual injury.
I did a search on this forum, and at least three people here have owned 600 Overkills. Nobody posted anything about getting hurt so I'm guessing it's not to bad.
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VonGruff
.400 member
Reged: 08/02/09
Posts: 1119
Loc: South Otago, New Zealand.
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Unless it recoils like "Baby" and spins you arround at the shot and bloods your nose then you aint talking about recoil.
Von Gruff.
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Von Gruff.
Exodus 20:1-17
Acts 4:10-12
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DarylS
.700 member
Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 27688
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
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I think there is probably a difference between 125gr. 4831 and 125gr. 3031 along with 100gr. of bullet difference as well, to differenciate between the .505 Barnes and the .460's 'factory' load.
I'm not saying it kicked like the .600 will - of that I have no experience and never will for that matter, but at 8 1/2 pounds for a gun that should weigh, perhaps double that, you might be unpleasantly surprised.
What was the weight of the average .600 Nitro? How many people shoot them without flinching or developing a flinch?
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Daryl
"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V
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r3hawk
.224 member
Reged: 30/07/11
Posts: 13
Loc: CA
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Quote:
I think there is probably a difference between 125gr. 4831 and 125gr. 3031 along with 100gr. of bullet difference as well, to differentiate between the .505 Barnes and the .460's 'factory' load.
I'm loading my 460 Weatherby with 124 grains of IMR 4350. Couldn't find much information on the 505 Barnes, but assuming that load does 2500 ft/s, the recoil would be about 30% more.
The 600 Overkill should be about 2 1/2 times the recoil of the 460 Weatherby. Not sure this is really that good of a comparison for felt recoil though. Especially when you look at the Weatherby having 6 times the recoil of a 30-06.
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Smoke73
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Reged: 30/05/11
Posts: 164
Loc: Rocky Mtn. House Alberta
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I've read that the torque produced from the heavy bullets turning through the rifling is what really causes problems. Basically twists it out of your forend grip and then all he'll breaks loose. I have no actual experience nor want any. Good luck as this thing has the potential to do physical damage at 247 f/lbs and 47 fps recoil.
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Your not tired, you just think your tired, you don't even know what the hell tired is.- Garth Ahlstrom (Thanx Dad love ya)
"When one of them is born, their god says ' Go in peace.'
When one of us is born our Gods say "Go hunting."- J. Emmett Willie
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chuck375
.333 member
Reged: 13/10/07
Posts: 445
Loc: Colorado Springs CO
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A lot of 460 Weatherby's and 600 OKs have muzzle brakes which will reduce the recoil by a lot. I'd recommend foam earplugs and ear muffs though if that's the case.
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"There's a saying in prize fighting: Everyone's got a plan until they get hit"
Michael Douglas "The Ghost And The Darkness"
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9.3x57
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Reged: 22/04/07
Posts: 5561
Loc: United States
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Quote:
The 600 Overkill should be about 2 1/2 times the recoil of the 460 Weatherby. Not sure this is really that good of a comparison for felt recoil though.
I think what they mean is that it is alot like taking a right cross to the jaw from Mike Tyson and right before hitting the matt getting kicked in the temple by David Beckham and then bitch-slapped across the face by Cher when after a half hour down you have one foot under you while struggling back to your feet.
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What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?
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bigdog
.375 member
Reged: 05/02/06
Posts: 559
Loc: Southern Illinois
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I have an 8 1/2 lb 600 overkill. It has a small brake on it, and it depends what load you use on the recoil. At 2100 ft/sec with a 900 grain bullet, it is doable. With 2300 to 2350 ft/sec, it kicks a lot! My smallest lightest big bore is a 6.5 lb custom ultra lite in 500 Jeffery with a 16 1/2" barrel. The Jeffery smacks you pretty good. Both guns were built by Mike Cupiers of Bijou Creek rifles. His website shows the 600 being shot a couple of times using 900 grain bullets at about 2150 ft/sec. On the AR site there are a couple of dozen guys on the forum that own and shoot the 600 overkill. Including the original designer of the 600 overkill cartridge. It is a great cartridge to shoot.
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Kyle, I love you buddy, Dad
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r3hawk
.224 member
Reged: 30/07/11
Posts: 13
Loc: CA
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Thanks bigdog, it's nice to hear from someone who owns a 600 Overkill. I have watched the video from Bijou Creek, and with that load it looks plenty controllable. I'm planning on doing this build without a brake though. Just don't like the way they look. Any thoughts on barrel length? I'm liking the idea of an 18 inch barrel, but might go with a 20.
By the way, what AR site are you talking about? Any input I could get on this build from actual owners would be appreciated. Maybe some reloading data when I get closer. I've seen H4350 used from around 150 to 170 grains. I would prefer to use IMR4350, so hopefully I can just start at around 150 grains and work my way up.
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bigdog
.375 member
Reged: 05/02/06
Posts: 559
Loc: Southern Illinois
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AR stands for Accurate reloading. go to their forums. They tend to mix it up over there sometimes and guys get a little confrontational. Not as much etiquette as here. But lots of info anyway. Good luck with your build, post progress pictures when possible.
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Kyle, I love you buddy, Dad
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fourbore
.275 member
Reged: 28/03/10
Posts: 70
Loc: NewEngland
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I got involved in some of those heated discussions. One area was the use of muzzle brakes in the field. Specifically the adverse effects on professional hunter and staff, not to mention the necessary caution by the shooter to protect his own hearing. The other was certain members seem to be bragging about their handling of the OK. Then also, was also the comparison (even unabashed promotion)of 600OK with a brake as magically better than some other guns without brakes. That was not being an equal or fair comparison.
The problem with AR, is one moderators and one key participant have product for sale and the debate get cut short and limited quick. Result- I was banned after posting some quotes from PH regarding muzzle brakes and more stirring the pot regarding magazine capacity and on and on. There is no single best solution for the big bore fanatic.
Its not such a big deal to too fire a properly built and braked 50BMG. Fun for sure, but the braggin is in the performance of the shooter not the mere survival.
If it is just for bragging right, I'd be more impressed with an unbraked 577 TREX than any braked weapon. But for fun, and with the proper hearing protection at all times, this 600 sounds like a great choice too.
The same group who are pushing so hard on the 600 also made the notorious video about the 577 trex. It turns out that rifle has a 1/10 twist. The result is the torque causes the gun the twist out of the shooters hands. That was a design flaw in that particular gun. Then the loading is a bit off the wall , but for bragging rights I guess that might be just what is wanted. Now, that is bragging without a brake.
Another problem in the field for many of these guns (besides the brakes) is the limited magazine capacity of two shots. But again, for fun, no problem at all.
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r3hawk
.224 member
Reged: 30/07/11
Posts: 13
Loc: CA
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Well, I joined the AR forum and posted there. I'll have to see how it goes.
Quote:
If it is just for bragging right, I'd be more impressed with an unbraked 577 TREX than any braked weapon. But for fun, and with the proper hearing protection at all times, this 600 sounds like a great choice too.
The same group who are pushing so hard on the 600 also made the notorious video about the 577 trex. It turns out that rifle has a 1/10 twist. The result is the torque causes the gun the twist out of the shooters hands. That was a design flaw in that particular gun. Then the loading is a bit off the wall , but for bragging rights I guess that might be just what is wanted. Now, that is bragging without a brake.
When I first started to think about doing this build I was looking at the 577 trex and the 585 Nyati. The 600 Overkill looked like a much easier build, and being able to shoot heavier bullets is a plus. All three have about the same muzzle energy, so that wasn't a concern. By the way, I'm also planning on not using a brake on this rifle.
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bigdog
.375 member
Reged: 05/02/06
Posts: 559
Loc: Southern Illinois
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The 600 can be made to feed properly, much easier than the 585 nyati. I am not sure that a bolt gun with two down and one in the tube is any worse than any double rifle with only 2 shots?? Muzzle brakes are like Weatherbys on the gun forums. Some like them, some don't. Shooting a 600 overkill with a nine hundred grain bullet at 2400 ft.sec will flat rock you with out a brake. Granted is does not have to be that hot to achieve its purpose of killing anything on the planet. If you look at some of the velocities that they pushed the 577 tex to during that video, no wonder it was hard to hold onto. By the time the bolt got sticky, they were way past the factory loaded 577 t rex. Those videos are pretty funny, but proper shooting technique will eleminate a lot of the abuse those guys take in that video. Most of them have very poor shooting technique.
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Kyle, I love you buddy, Dad
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fourbore
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Reged: 28/03/10
Posts: 70
Loc: NewEngland
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In my opinion, once you start looking over 50 caliber bolt gun there is no easy choice. I can understand selection of the 600 over the two 577's mentioned. The Trex has a large head diameter and will not fit in the affordable CZ550 action. There is a new Montana PH action that will handle the TREX, but I not hear much about those yet. The Nyati might work but it is rebated. The 600ok is rebated too, but with single column feed appears to work well enough. I like the looks of the TREX ammo, good neck length no rebate. Not too practical though, I admit.
There are at least 3 straight case 577's that match the Gibbs bolt face of the CZ550. They have a belt, but no rebate. All skinny enough to fit staggered in the magazine, same as the 505 gibbs. They look like scale up 458Win mags. I like those. I dont have one, I just mean esthetically or for BS on the internet, I like them. If something like that was available off the shelf I'd have one out in a heart beat. Probably loaded down to NE levels. Those three are the result of Ed Hubel effort that started as a 3.25 case 585HE. Then is a 3.0 inch 577BME ( I believe) and a 3rd shorter version. Head & belts may vary slightly among the three. I like the 3.25 version -fondling a sample round as I type. I'd consider cutting down to 3.0 inch, instead of the BME that has no brass. The HE brass might be available. Ed can supply brass too. He posts on this forum regular in the 12Ga from hell thread. The long case can equall or beat any of those mentioned, but beating the TREX or Overkill seems like too much more than too much of too much already. ..ahhh.. A 750 grain bullet is a lot of lead and 585 is a lot of impact area, and deadly at 577NE performance.
Ed has also developed a 700 that fits in the new Montana PH action. FWIW, another option.
There is also a 550mag, based on the Weatherby case that has some appeal. Brass is available and its an easy fit in the CZ550. But here the bullets are the problem. So; while the .550 is a real slick fit in the CZ, the .585 belted like the Hubel fits reasonably well and used legendary and somewhat available although expensive bullets.
I am pretty much at my limit with an 11 lb 505 Gibbs. And where I come at this is 750 grain in 577 would be a big step up and require 13-14 pound rifle for a guy like me. I cannot imagine, moving up from a 458 to 600 all in one step. But thats me, I know there are younger and stronger men who can take that challenge. And the 600 can be loaded light and then worked up.
I would think any 600, with out a brake should be at least 13pounds and even 16-18 would not be excessive.
You might want to consult a recoil calculator and compare where you are now with vs a full house OK in 6.5 pound rifle. I think you really want more weight on that thing.
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r3hawk
.224 member
Reged: 30/07/11
Posts: 13
Loc: CA
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Thanks guys, most of what you mentioned I have already looked into. Do have some ideas now for my next build after this one. Keeping this one on the cheep side with the CZ 550 action.
Quote:
You might want to consult a recoil calculator and compare where you are now with vs a full house OK in 6.5 pound rifle. I think you really want more weight on that thing.
My 460 Weatherby is my only comparison point that is at all close. It will be a bit of a jump to the 600 Overkill even at a starting load. I'm not too worried though. It's less of a jump than going from my anemic 338 Win Mag to the Weatherby (30 ft-lbs to 115 ft-lbs).
460 Weatherby
500 grain bullet
2700 fps
9.5 lb rifle
115 ft-lb of recoil energy
600 Overkill
900 grain bullet
2300 fps
8 lb rifle
300 ft-lb of recoil energy
2100 fps
250 ft-lb of recoil energy
1800 fps
200 ft-lb of recoil energy
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