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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Paradox and Bore Guns

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Smoke73
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Reged: 30/05/11
Posts: 164
Loc: Rocky Mtn. House Alberta
Regulating a 12 bore
      #186699 - 28/07/11 05:41 AM

Been playing with a husqvarna 310A and have been getting outstanding groups barrel for barrel but no matter what I do ,as close as I can get the groups together is 8" @ 50yards. The butt has been weighted, forearm to thin to ad lead, have tried triple seven, 4756 and longshot (all show 8" spread). Longshot is the best of the lot. Groups at 8" but much lower than the others as it groups at higher velocity 1400 fps and I believe is beating the vertical recoil jump but still getting the horizontal spread. It may be my trigger pull causing the problem but it seems much to consistent. On the weekend I shot three lefts into the same hole and two rights in one hole with the third going wild by an inch. During this grouping we even changed to a standing bench to see how hold and trigger pull affected things to no avail. I'm not complaining as this thing is grouping like a house of fire but I have got to get some regulation. Is it time to pull the ribs and regulate or is there something else I should try?

--------------------
Your not tired, you just think your tired, you don't even know what the hell tired is.- Garth Ahlstrom (Thanx Dad love ya)

"When one of them is born, their god says ' Go in peace.'
When one of us is born our Gods say "Go hunting."- J. Emmett Willie


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beleg2
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Loc: Bahía Blanca - Argentina
Re: Regulating a 12 bore [Re: Smoke73]
      #186740 - 28/07/11 09:51 PM

Hi,
It smooth bore o rifled?
Thanks
Martin


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Smoke73
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Reged: 30/05/11
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Re: Regulating a 12 bore [Re: beleg2]
      #186751 - 28/07/11 11:11 PM

Beleg2 this is a smoothbore shotgun we shortened tubes to 24" from the original 30"

--------------------
Your not tired, you just think your tired, you don't even know what the hell tired is.- Garth Ahlstrom (Thanx Dad love ya)

"When one of them is born, their god says ' Go in peace.'
When one of us is born our Gods say "Go hunting."- J. Emmett Willie


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CommandCar
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Re: Regulating a 12 bore [Re: Smoke73]
      #186766 - 29/07/11 01:02 AM

What load are you using? Ball diameter & weight, wad column and case?

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Smoke73
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Reged: 30/05/11
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Loc: Rocky Mtn. House Alberta
Re: Regulating a 12 bore [Re: CommandCar]
      #186770 - 29/07/11 01:35 AM

I'm shooting a .735 roundball of Brinell hardness 18 (my bore is .7345) over an ox-yoke fiberwad lubed with wonderlube on top of a Winchester W12 pink wad (can't recall all letters just now) petals removed, over 34 grns of Longshot in a cheddite hull and cheddite primer. Showed no signs of leading at velocities over 1250. Not sure why higher velocity showed cleaner tubes. This round is accurate in my opinion as I load the hulls full length and seal with beeswax. There is no crimp or jump to forcing cone for the ball to deal with.

--------------------
Your not tired, you just think your tired, you don't even know what the hell tired is.- Garth Ahlstrom (Thanx Dad love ya)

"When one of them is born, their god says ' Go in peace.'
When one of us is born our Gods say "Go hunting."- J. Emmett Willie


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500Nitro
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Re: Regulating a 12 bore [Re: Smoke73]
      #186771 - 29/07/11 01:41 AM


.

Edited by 500Nitro (29/07/11 01:49 AM)


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DarylS
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Re: Regulating a 12 bore [Re: CommandCar]
      #186772 - 29/07/11 01:46 AM

The faster they are going, the lower they will strike.

I'm surprised they are holding at 8", though.

I would continue with load developement, especially with longshot for higher speed. You should be able to get it up to about 1,700fps and that might being the barrels in - or separate them further - either/or but at least you'll know what is needed.

Sounds like great grouping, individually - marvelous.

Wads, ball diameter and powder. All combine to regulation.

Now, with longshot grouping at 8" - centre to centre or overall - side to side? The individual groups must be about 5" to 6" apart, on centres. The spread is taken centre of group to centre of group.

I'd try some more load development - powder charge changes and maybe wads - I ran my 12 bore smoothie up to only 1,550fps, but it shot into the same group at 50yards and I was able to hold both barrels on a 10" plate, offhand at 100 meters.



--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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DarylS
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Re: Regulating a 12 bore [Re: DarylS]
      #186773 - 29/07/11 02:02 AM

Just checked the Hodgdon annual mannual - with longshot and shot weighing 1 1/4oz probably close to your hard ball - 34gr. coul;d be improved upon.

Of course, wad column plays a big part and one must be careful.

I see listings for 1 1/4oz shot at 1,500fps using 35.7gr. in a Cheddite hull at 11,000PSI.

I've always thought shot produced more pressure than a ball, this being due to the friction of the shot mass against the bore's wall in passing up the tube, than does a single round ball barely touching or riding on a gas check as I loaded them. I am therefore of the mind that the longshot load could be increased carefully, watching for normal shotshell pressure signs - primers & stickiness normally.
Sealing the end of the case is a presure reducer compared to a crimp, so that itself leaves room for experimenting. You wouldn't want to change too much, as the grouping is so good - but - it might be necessary to put up with a lousy 3" overall group if they shot together.

I've purchased a .710" mould from Jeff Tanner, UK for testing in my rifled 12 bore barrel, but haven't tried it yet. In WW, they weigh roughly 500gr.

I'm told 1,700fps is easily accomplished.

Have you tried a lighter projectile9smaller ball using gas-checks to keep it centered - or the Lyman 14 bore 506gr. (WW) bullet in a red wad?

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

Edited by Daryl_S (29/07/11 02:04 AM)


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Smoke73
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Re: Regulating a 12 bore [Re: DarylS]
      #186785 - 29/07/11 05:34 AM

I was afraid someone might mention marching on. Case head expansion is still well within acceptable limits at 34 grns (.007"). Recoil will probably become somewhat unacceptable as I move forward. Weighted this gun only weights 7.25# and has become somewhat lively at 34. But a man has to do what a man has to do. As soon as the bruising heals I'll start working my way up in .5 grain increments. I'll keep an eye on caseheads and quit when I'm .010" over. I had caseheads at .013" over with triple seven but heavy buckshot loads push to a max of .010" over.
Haven't tried lighter balls as my accuracy has been so good and I would like this to be my dangerous game go to gun. I'm a believer in projectile weight so I will carry on as is. I've got a couple beautiful ribs I got from birdhunter and can't say I wouldn't like to have a proper quarter-rib on this boregun so if she don't come together we'll make her come together. Stay tuned.

--------------------
Your not tired, you just think your tired, you don't even know what the hell tired is.- Garth Ahlstrom (Thanx Dad love ya)

"When one of them is born, their god says ' Go in peace.'
When one of us is born our Gods say "Go hunting."- J. Emmett Willie


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CommandCar
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Re: Regulating a 12 bore [Re: Smoke73]
      #186808 - 29/07/11 12:31 PM

I don't think the winchester wads with "AA" anywhere in the product code work well in UEE cases such as the Cheddite. You might want to try the REX wad or the wad I use, the Super Spark" These seal better in the Cheddite and Fiocchi hulls.

I like Daryl's idea of trying a lighter RB. Certainly worth trying, but I understand your thought process.

Boy, I would roll crimp. You want durable ammunition. The BW is just so tender. I recall you mentioning you were worried about roll crimping. Back her off a 10% or so and give it a try. There is no problem I know of, I'm confident there would be some flap out there that I would have picked up if there was. Roll 'em. You may move impact of the individual barrels by adjusting the wad column too.

I'm not aware of anyone measuring case head expansion to determine shotshell pressure. Please be carefull. Maybe someone else can provide more info (or confirm my thoughts).


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Smoke73
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Re: Regulating a 12 bore [Re: CommandCar]
      #186824 - 29/07/11 04:24 PM

I would agree that the win AA wads don't provide a good seal. They are mostly just taking up space and my real seal is being created by the ox-yoke wad. They are cut for use in brass hulls so are very snug in the cheddite hull. I think I will try a hard card wad with two ox-yokes on top this next go and see what happens.

In regards to beeswax the stuff I am getting is hard as h$ll when dry and really adheres to the plastic hulls. During this springs bear hunt I packed the same six for three weeks. They endured rain snow and mud and got no special treatment from me. I shot them off this weekend as I won't be using that load any longer. We hunt Blacks from stands and max shot would have been 25 yards so was ok with regulation for that hunt. I have tried the roll crimps and see no reason at this point to go back. Accuracy was poor, pressures appeared to be slightly higher and it's a slow process compared to waxing. I also believe the wax helps to lubricate ball. I must admit though that in 100 degree weather things may start to soften and cause problems. I'll work on that.

I follow another forum that has a dedicated shotgun slug casting section. Case head measurements are generally accepted there as a tool for monitoring loads. You will see a .003"' jump with calipers long before your eyes or other senses tell you something is wrong.

--------------------
Your not tired, you just think your tired, you don't even know what the hell tired is.- Garth Ahlstrom (Thanx Dad love ya)

"When one of them is born, their god says ' Go in peace.'
When one of us is born our Gods say "Go hunting."- J. Emmett Willie


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DarylS
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Re: Regulating a 12 bore [Re: Smoke73]
      #186845 - 30/07/11 01:34 AM

Smoke - you should be able to load to the same expansion as T-7 gave - however is some bores/calibres/barrels/loads - it gets a bit flighty - with jumpy pressure readings.

I would load up some real black powder loads to set a maximum load for pressure reading - if you want the middle 'African' load, use the 5.5dram (150gr.), or perhaps 7 dram (191gr.) for the top 2 3/4" load. There was also a 3" hull with 9 dram load for a special heavily built DR, but you will not like shooting that one - I guarantee that. The 7 dram of real black powder won't be much fun either, in a light gun. My double 12 weighed only 7 1/2 pounds - 7 drams 2F kinda hurt in BP, but not the equivalent velocity load in smokeless - 1,550fps. My first shot with 7 drams spun me around like a weathercock. I needed to hold the gun a bit more deliberately, I found. After that it wasn't really bad, just not as much fun as shooting the equivelent speeds with smokeless.

Measure the case expansion - probably new hulls are best for consistency. That should give you a max. for useable loads. It might be interesting to compare those measurements to the T7.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Smoke73
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Reged: 30/05/11
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Re: Regulating a 12 bore [Re: DarylS]
      #186873 - 30/07/11 11:31 AM

Darryl every man has his limits and is wise to know them. In the past I have been known to be "flinchy", cause was an unruly 338 win mag that I owned at a young age. I've worked hard to get rid of it and have no desire to backtrack. I do however think that the seven dram load would give an workable casehead measurement.

--------------------
Your not tired, you just think your tired, you don't even know what the hell tired is.- Garth Ahlstrom (Thanx Dad love ya)

"When one of them is born, their god says ' Go in peace.'
When one of us is born our Gods say "Go hunting."- J. Emmett Willie


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DennisA
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Re: Regulating a 12 bore [Re: Smoke73]
      #187334 - 05/08/11 09:07 AM

I find it amazing that you have managed to get the groups 8" apart at fifty yards with a bore size round ball in a 7.5lb gun. That is a heavy projectile in what have to be reasonably light barrels.
From my experience I think you've reached the upper limit of what can be accomplished by reducing barrel time by increasing velocity. For what it's worth I haven't found that weighting the butt has much to do with bringing the groups together. What would need to be done is to add weight to the barrels and I don't know of a good way to do that.
Have you tried the common Foster style slugs? I know all the arguments against them but in 12Ga there is enough variety of projectile weights and velocity that you can get a good idea of what weight round ball you might need to go to and at what velocity.
I seriously doubt that unsoldering the barrels and trying to regulate them will work with that heavy a projectile.


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DarylS
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Re: Regulating a 12 bore [Re: DennisA]
      #187418 - 06/08/11 02:47 AM

Making the barrels heavier - or reducing the weight of the ball should bring them closer together, shouldn't it?

In the 12 bore double I worked with, I used the same ball I load in my 14 bore muzzleloader. The mould is .684", an Italian mould that looks like a Lyman mould. It casts a pure lead ball of .682" which weighs 482gr., while the mould throws a WW ball of .684" weighing 466gr.

My double shotgun put the tubes together - they'd been shortened to 26" with sights let into the top rib. I even mounted a scope on it for load development. It regulated with both smokeless and black powder- presumably, the excessive recoil of the black powder (in comparrison to smokeless) had little to do with the regulation, merely the velcoity of the balls seemed critical to the regulation of the barrels. Both the 7 dram 2F black powder load and my smokeless loads put out the same speed - 1,500fps.

The smokeless felt like it had only 1/2 the recoil.

Because we are attempting to maintain penetration and killing power, I think going to a foster (hollow) slug or foster styled slug is a bad idea. If a reduction to 1oz is necessary, then the use of cup-shaped wads such as I used to keep the ball in the middle of the bore for accuracy, would also work with a 16 bore ball. The 16 bore ball measures .662". This 1oz. ball will give even higher speeds than 14 bore or 12 bore balls, which should being the barrels closer together, shouldn't it?

I would not consider separating the tubes and attempting to re-regulate them until I'd exhausted all other methods first. A 16 bore ball of WW alloy, driven to 1,800 or 1,900fps will most certaily smash both shoulders of an elk. Those speeds should be achievable with Longshot, Herco or other slow shotgun powders like Blue Dot. IMR's SR4759 or H4227 or IMR4227 can make even higher speeds, but I've not used them - yet.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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DennisA
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Re: Regulating a 12 bore [Re: DarylS]
      #187419 - 06/08/11 03:17 AM

Daryl

I was suggesting the use of the Foster style slugs because they are readily available in weights from 7/8OZ to 1&1/4OZ at several velocities and are cheap. Finding one that brings the two groups together gives you a good idea of where to go with a roundball weight and velocity at least getting you in the ballpark.
You are correct that dropping the weight of the projectile should bring them together. As to adding weight to the barrels that would also work and if you've figured out a good way to do it please share it.


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DarylS
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Re: Regulating a 12 bore [Re: DennisA]
      #187440 - 06/08/11 08:17 AM

No way to add weight that I'm aware of - I was merely repeating the annalogy you made, Dennis.

I understand your suggestion in trying the lighter weight slugs, however there must be a Lee mould in that range as well and probably as cost effective or more so - which if unsucessful in shooting is still useable or saleable to someone else. This is why I mentioned the moulds. I've gotten to liking undersized round balls due to the lack of fouling - so far no plastic and definitely no lead.

Note - if using black powder (real or imagined), do not use plastic - unless it is very well protected from the flame - BP flame will melt plastic onto your bore - what a mess when it includes BPowder fouling.

Seem to me, Lee moulds still around $19.95US for single cavity and $24.95 for Double Cavity. The very large sizes are available only in single cavity.

In the past I've gone the route of buying balls for testing avaiable from Track as well, but by the time I received a small bag of 25 balls, they ended up costing as much as the mould would have. I could have cast some up for testing, and kept the mould for something else (normal for me) or sold or loaned it out for someone else's testing. I find having various moulds "in stock" quite handy, in fact- like the variety of sizes I have for testing in 12 bores. comes in handy. The smoothbore of my Mossberg is backbored to .736" - so the .735" ball is perfect. The rifled barrel is .724", so the .725" mould I have work OK for the initial test. The .715" worked, but the .710" ball in gas-check cups is more accurate. I still have the .740", .684" and .662" moulds in reserve for other testing, depending on the gun/barrel(s) I'm shooting.

Buying 'extra' mould sizes, if possible, is never a bad idea.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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DennisA
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Re: Regulating a 12 bore [Re: DarylS]
      #187454 - 06/08/11 04:50 PM

Daryl

I'm curious as to how you put up your roundball loads and where you get your load data. I've got a couple of 20Ga poor man's double rifles that regulate very well with the Winchster 3/4Oz Foster slugs. Like 4" at 50yds R&L. Seemed like a .600 Lee mold I have on order ought to work but I'm kind of at a lose as to any publications with data for RB loads. Any guidance would be appreciated.


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Smoke73
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Re: Regulating a 12 bore [Re: DennisA]
      #187455 - 06/08/11 05:12 PM

DennisA can you clarify why you feel it would not be possible to regulate the barrels by moving them together. They have been cut to 24" and have a spread of approximately .150 at muzzle. Ellis Brown's book suggests that for an eight inch spread one needs to bring in the barrel muzzles .032" in as a starting point. Seems that I would have lots to work with or am I missing something?

As for weight we had considered filing between barrels with either lead or cerrasafe but decided there was to many things to go wrong. I can add 4-5 oz in the forearm but is that enough to matter?

--------------------
Your not tired, you just think your tired, you don't even know what the hell tired is.- Garth Ahlstrom (Thanx Dad love ya)

"When one of them is born, their god says ' Go in peace.'
When one of us is born our Gods say "Go hunting."- J. Emmett Willie


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DennisA
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Re: Regulating a 12 bore [Re: Smoke73]
      #187492 - 07/08/11 03:23 AM

Sounds like you have enough room to adjust for convergance. There a lot of things to consider though. Are your barrels soft soldered or brazed? What is your skill level with soldering/brazing and machining ability. What equipment do you have access to. Separating and rejoining side by side barrels is not as simple as it may appear.
It still seems to me that dropping 1/8 to 1/4Oz in projectile weight would be the simpler thing to try first. YMMV


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DennisA
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Re: Regulating a 12 bore [Re: DennisA]
      #187494 - 07/08/11 03:26 AM

Forgot something. As to finding out if the addition of weight would make a difference just pour some lead into 1/2" copper plumbing tube and duct tape it under the barrel.

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DarylS
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Re: Regulating a 12 bore [Re: DennisA]
      #187496 - 07/08/11 04:03 AM

The Lyman shotshell loading books have some data - at least in 12 bore. I never looked at 20 bore. I started off using SR4576 and SR7625 as those were the slower powders I was using with my duck hunting shot loads. They developed good speeds with low pressures. I knew/figured round balls would produce less pressure than an equal weight of shot due to little or no scrubbing friction adding to the powder produced pressure.

Some extropolation was/is needed at times and is how I got started, like using data for those high speed, lower pressure (slower powders) shot loads of similar weight, reducing slightly then working as pressure signs that I could see or feel, indicated. It worked perfectly with no surprises.

This is what I did with my 12 bore double loads, prior to buying the Lyman #3 manual, which would have started me more easily, but I arrived pretty much there, anyway. Their idea of merley cutting off the petals didn't work satisfacterally for me, accuracy wise. I came up with the gas check cup, cup-up under the ball for centering the ball - that worked for me.

Instead of having decent data to start with, I had to work my way there & ended up slightly conservative to their data, but then, I was using a different, slightly smaller ball. They used a .690" which is actually the 'normal' 12 bore 'full choke' size of 40 points of choke(.040").

It was a good process though - loading my RB loads as if they were rifle loads & developing my loads by changing wads and powder charges, instead of projectiles and powder- similar, as it is. Having experience with loading shotshells helped, I'm sure. The new (current) Lyman book might give even better data as there are many newer projectiles being used these days, sabots, etc. It's possible other makers have data that can be used or extropolated from to help us load. If anyone comes across a source, here's the place to let us know of it - the source that is.

The interior of shotshells differs. Some are straight sided, some are tapered and wads are manufactured to bit both but aren't interchangable - sometimes. I have some steel shot wads that are quite large in diameter and will bulge some shotshells like AA's. The interior of the steel wad is quite cupped. Removing the petals leaves a square base cup for keeping pressures in check, with a rouned cup facing up to hold an undersized ball in the middle of the tube. Initial tests showed these worked well.

Today, with back bored barrels being popular, the old standard full, modified or imp cyl choke sizes could be changed to about anything. One must measure his bore to be sure. Friends of mine used cloth patches around the undersized balls, inside what would have been normal shotloads for 1 1/4oz. high speed 4756 loads. Their ball speeds weren't very high, but the moose shot from their duck blinds at 50 yards distance didn't know that & died where they were standing. I told them to try to shove the cloth patched ball out the chokes of their guns. If they could do that, they were OK. They did this. One fellow tested the 466gr. WW RB against a factory 1,500fps 1oz. WW slug from his 2 3/4" duck gun. The factory slug made a deep dent in the side of the 45gallon drum (50gal.US), barely cracking/splitting the metal at the bottom of the dent with a tich/bit of lead squirting through the crack. The hardened RB punched through one side then exited the other. It holed both sides with very little denting or movement of steel. He was impressed.


One must experiment.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Smoke73
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Re: Regulating a 12 bore [Re: DarylS]
      #187529 - 07/08/11 04:52 PM

Well I guess for now I'll try edging velocity up and I like the idea of adding a lead weight temporarily to see it's affect. Will try some lighter store bought slugs for a quick check on lighter weight slugs. Thank for all the imput fellas it keeps a guy from jumping the gun when there may be a simple solution. If I have to regulate the hard way it can be done. I'm a good welder and developing machinist. Our local gunsmith gives me full access to his shop at no charge and is always just across the table when I get stuck. I think he just likes helping me out because I keep coming up with projects that keep him on his toes. No simple rebarrels with me.

--------------------
Your not tired, you just think your tired, you don't even know what the hell tired is.- Garth Ahlstrom (Thanx Dad love ya)

"When one of them is born, their god says ' Go in peace.'
When one of us is born our Gods say "Go hunting."- J. Emmett Willie


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Smoke73
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Reged: 30/05/11
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Re: Regulating a 12 bore [Re: Smoke73]
      #189640 - 11/09/11 11:43 AM

Bought some Federeal truball slugs and they shot ok. They were the deep penetrator 1 oz but that's a little misleading. I weighed recovered slugs and they averaged around 457 grains so they obviously were not 437 grains to start with or am I out on my ounce calculation. They regulated level vertically and had a horizontal spread of 6" center to center at 55 yards. They advertise 1350 fps and I'll have to believe it as a rouge wad smashed the screen on the chrony.

I tried upping the speed on the .735 balls but all I got was flinchy and groups spread to 20+" so that game is over for now. I think I should find some .690 roundballs cast from wheel weights as they should weigh close to the truball slugs.

Oh and I tried taping weight to the barrel but took a pound and a half to do anything so that is out.

Going to look for some Federal barnes copper sabot slugs as the odd guy gets lucky and they shoot good in ok in a smooth.

--------------------
Your not tired, you just think your tired, you don't even know what the hell tired is.- Garth Ahlstrom (Thanx Dad love ya)

"When one of them is born, their god says ' Go in peace.'
When one of us is born our Gods say "Go hunting."- J. Emmett Willie


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DarylS
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Re: Regulating a 12 bore [Re: Smoke73]
      #189744 - 12/09/11 01:59 AM

The .690"RB in WW should weigh about 470gr. to 475gr. My .684" WW balls weigh 466gr. in old (1980's) WW.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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