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lancaster
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a very nice look alike MS Carcano
      #186099 - 19/07/11 05:31 PM

must be an early Ferlach made sporter, a lot of work also then and I wonder if it was realy cheaper than an original Schönauer Stutzen. maybe the customer give a war rifle he had for free to the gunmaker.
642 euro comes close to a real schönauer in an auction.
http://www.egun.de/market/item.php?id=3385755









--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by CptCurl (19/07/11 08:33 PM)


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CHAPUISARMES
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Re: a very nice look alike MS Carcano [Re: lancaster]
      #186101 - 19/07/11 05:48 PM

Hi Lancaster,

What did they say about making a 'Silk Purse from a Sows ear' an old saying that looks to be true. Very nice.

Cheers,

Jeff Gray

.


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darwinmauser
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Re: a very nice look alike MS Carcano [Re: CHAPUISARMES]
      #186173 - 20/07/11 09:03 PM


I wonder where the bottom metal came from ? Maybe a Japanese type1. I own a couple of them, a 91/41 and a sportered version which is being stocked at the moment .I like the scope set up but alas ,unless you change the magazine to a Mauser type it's not practical.


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lancaster
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Re: a very nice look alike MS Carcano [Re: darwinmauser]
      #186300 - 22/07/11 09:53 AM

I cant imagine that they had parts for the type 1 rifle in Ferlach back in the 50s.

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by lancaster (22/07/11 09:53 AM)


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lancaster
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Re: a very nice look alike MS Carcano [Re: lancaster]
      #218231 - 21/10/12 05:16 AM

a similar rifle in 6,5x54 MS with a distinct bavarian alpine flavour











http://www.egun.de/market/item.php?id=4074766
come swith a Kahles scope on a Mannlichger Schönauer claw mount

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by CptCurl (19/11/12 12:18 AM)


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aromakr
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Re: a very nice look alike MS Carcano [Re: lancaster]
      #218262 - 22/10/12 05:07 AM

I love those full lenght stocks, pretty.
Bob


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Carpetsahib
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Re: a very nice look alike MS Carcano [Re: lancaster]
      #218284 - 22/10/12 02:23 PM

Quote:

I cant imagine that they had parts for the type 1 rifle in Ferlach back in the 50s.


Since the I-Type was made in Italy in 1938 -39, I think it is highly likely some specimens made it to Ferlach.

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lancaster
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Re: a very nice look alike MS Carcano [Re: Carpetsahib]
      #224129 - 23/01/13 01:50 AM

another of this post war austrian made Mannlicher Schönauer look-alike Carcano Stutzen






still in 6,5x52 Carcano and for sale in austria
http://www.waffengebraucht.at/node/197355

Edited by CptCurl (05/06/13 11:00 AM)


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lancaster
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Re: a very nice look alike MS Carcano [Re: lancaster]
      #226019 - 27/02/13 01:30 AM

probably the same rifle, nice presentation and make lust on my own carcano project















http://www.waffengebraucht.at/node/197355

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by CptCurl (05/06/13 11:01 AM)


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lancaster
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Re: a very nice look alike MS Carcano [Re: lancaster]
      #227349 - 21/03/13 08:26 PM

carcano sporting rifle in 6,5x54 Mannlciher Schönauer, scope on claw mount and stock is lengthened
four rounds magazin made by the gunmaker who build it
http://www.egun.de/market/item.php?id=4320495&PHPSESSID=1c48372950c373727e35fa1e0204049c

nice rifle if you look for a carcano sporter







--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by CptCurl (05/06/13 11:01 AM)


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lancaster
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Re: a very nice look alike MS Carcano [Re: lancaster]
      #227699 - 28/03/13 08:20 PM

carcano sporting rifle for sale in austria

6x5x54 Mannlicher Schönauer











http://www.waffengebraucht.at/node/204372

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by CptCurl (05/06/13 11:02 AM)


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lancaster
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Re: a very nice look alike MS Carcano [Re: lancaster]
      #234343 - 16/08/13 10:18 PM

http://www.egun.de/market/item.php?id=4522954









probably a 1920s made stutzen made from a long rifle cut down

--------------------
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lancaster
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Re: a very nice look alike MS Carcano [Re: CHAPUISARMES]
      #244219 - 22/03/14 04:42 PM

there is an interesting Carcano sporter variant made for the canadian market in the 1930s I will show now and like allways I collect the topic to attrac more knowledge ...

The Eaton's Carcano

first question: who is Eaton's?
or better who was it?
Daryl????

"The T. Eaton Co. Limited was once Canada's largest department store retailer. It was founded in 1869 in Toronto by Timothy Eaton, a Presbyterian Ulster Scot immigrant from what is now Northern Ireland. Eaton's grew to become a retail and social institution in Canada, with stores across the country, buying offices across the globe, and a catalogue that was found in the homes of most Canadians. A changing economic and retail environment in the late 20th century, and mismanagement culminated in the chain's bankruptcy in 1999."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eaton%27s

so eaton's sold guns and ammo also and typical for such mail order catalogs it were mostly simple basic model's. they had also some own products like the 12 ga. shotgun cartridge "Eatonioa"



or the single shot bolt action rimfire rifle "Eatonia" that looks very belgian to me.

from the 1899 catalog



1916





1934-35











there are several eaton'S catalog's online like 1926 and 1934 but the eaton's carcano is not in this so I believe it must be between this years
http://www.collectionscanada.gc.ca/cmc/0...&img13.y=12


sometimes in the 1930s Eaton's sold a carcano sporting rifle in 6,5x54 Mannlicher Schönauer build for them by the H. W. Cooey Machine & Arms Company in Cobourg, Ontario. looking at the rifle I have very strong doubt about this story because the Eaton's carcano smell so strong austrian -german.
but take a look at a rifle for sale in canada







http://www.adpost.com/ca/sports_games/6927/

the pistol grib was made by glueing a piece of wood on the original stock. the original .268 diameter barrel was cut and a new .264 diameter barrel was screw in the original barrel stub for the 6,5x54 MS which was a very popular sporting round than around the world. the 6,5x52 Carcano was not available as a comercial sporting round before the 1950s.
nothing against canadian craftmansship but style and the double set trigger looks very continental.
So was this rifle realy build by a canadian shotgun maker? I believe we have another example of the international guntrade here. the rifle could be made by small firm like Sodia in Ferlach for example using captured WW 1 rifle forgotten in an austrian store and found again in the 1930s to made a cheap copy of the desired but expensive .265 Mannlicher sporting rifle. the carcano was not available as cheap surplus market before WW 2!


interesting the Eaton's carcano had his own urban myth
its believe by some that the .264 barrel was only pressed in the original barrel stub and hold by a little screw and so unsafe to shoot it.
but thats the truth:


"Pic 1 - The Barrel "Stub" into which the new barrel is affixed and widely believed to be pressed in and held by a set-screw. False, as stated above. "



"Pic 2 - Left to Right - barrel with tiny indent for set screw, barrel stub, set screw, receiver"



http://www.milsurps.com/content.php?r=303-Myth-Busted-Proof-Testing-an-Eaton-Carcano-Rifle

the rifle like every other carcano is very strong and safe to fire.


here are two other rifle's, the bottom one with a lacquered stock that is not original.
we can see that this sporting rifle was build in a bigger lot.













http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?352594-Eaton-carcano

Edited by lancaster (22/03/14 05:30 PM)


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lancaster
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Re: a very nice look alike MS Carcano [Re: lancaster]
      #244230 - 22/03/14 09:56 PM

more pages from Eaton's







--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by lancaster (22/03/14 10:11 PM)


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Sarg
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Re: a very nice look alike MS Carcano [Re: lancaster]
      #244249 - 23/03/14 05:20 AM

Great stuff Lancaster, very interesting, now it is easy to get cheap sporting 6.5X52 & not 6.5X54, or not 6.5X53R any way !

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rpeck



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Re: a very nice look alike MS Carcano [Re: Sarg]
      #245059 - 05/04/14 05:41 AM

Very interesting to me. This relatively obscure Canadian 6.5 x 54 M-S sporting rifle should be of some interest if only for its place in the history of the use of the 6.5 x54 M-S cartridge in Canada.

Those pages from the Eatons catalogue take me back to my reading/wiping material in the outhouse of my rural Alberta childhood. I spent a lot of time staring at those pages of guns. We had one shotgun and one rifle in the family, a Cooey .22 repeater, passed down to successive sons, who each in his turn would take on the responsibility of defending the farm from the ground squirrel horde.

Edited by rpeck (05/04/14 05:43 AM)


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lancaster
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Re: a very nice look alike MS Carcano [Re: lancaster]
      #257414 - 01/12/14 04:08 PM

6,5x54 MS sporting rifle for sale in Czechia
http://bazar.hunting-shop.cz/inzerat/92227-kulovnice/

scope is an east german zeiss zielvier so the sporter was probably made after WW 2 in czechia






--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by lancaster (01/12/14 04:09 PM)


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lancaster
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Re: a very nice look alike MS Carcano [Re: lancaster]
      #257862 - 15/12/14 02:40 AM

sporting rifle in 6,5x50SR Jap. build on a Type I rifle, imho made by Beretta for the japanese navy
this is a Carcano action with a double row magazine and make a nice light action for cartridges in 6,5x54 MS class










--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
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lancaster
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Re: a very nice look alike MS Carcano [Re: lancaster]
      #259064 - 16/01/15 02:10 AM

by sellers description made in 1928, a 6,5x52 http://bazar.hunting-shop.cz/inzerat/67179-lovecka-kulovnice-mannlicher-carcano-r-v-1928/





--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
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Ash
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Re: a very nice look alike MS Carcano [Re: lancaster]
      #262906 - 29/03/15 12:05 PM

I'm rather liking these and taking a fancy

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Iowa_303s
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Re: a very nice look alike MS Carcano [Re: Ash]
      #262908 - 29/03/15 01:31 PM

Ash,
I understand your feelings about these rifles/carbines.
Light, handy, good looking and chambered for effective and easy to shoot cartridges.
I saw a "sporterized" Carcano carbine at a gunshow a couple of weeks ago for $130 but passed on it.
I have enough projects going at this time already.

--------------------
Matt

formerly known as Iowa_303

"Once your reputation is ruined you can live your life quite freely."

"Enkelkinder über alles"


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lancaster
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Re: a very nice look alike MS Carcano [Re: Iowa_303s]
      #264507 - 03/05/15 01:07 PM

allready sold for 150 euro
https://www.waffengebraucht.at/node/237954







its a very nice carcano

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
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lancaster
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Re: a very nice look alike MS Carcano [Re: lancaster]
      #271829 - 18/10/15 05:53 AM

6,5x52 http://egun.de/market/item.php?id=5539258





--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
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lancaster
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Re: a very nice look alike MS Carcano [Re: lancaster]
      #278031 - 16/02/16 06:35 PM

pur inter war austrian made sporter with a Kahles/Wien on a vienna snap mount
http://www.vasari-auction.com/html/fiche...mp;r=&sold=















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casper50
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Re: a very nice look alike MS Carcano [Re: lancaster]
      #278048 - 17/02/16 02:32 AM

Could use a restock IMO.

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lancaster
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Re: a very nice look alike MS Carcano [Re: lancaster]
      #289267 - 21/10/16 05:45 AM

again from austria

single shot rifle with russian WW 2 PU scope in vienna snap mount









--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
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lancaster
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Re: a very nice look alike MS Carcano [Re: lancaster]
      #298362 - 03/04/17 08:25 PM

seems this one got a new .264 barrel for the 6,5x54 (6,5 carcana have .268 barrels) when it was made in the 1960s https://www.waffengebraucht.at/waffen/kugelrepetierer/carcano-mannlicher-schoenauer--18845

offer for only one euro










--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by lancaster (03/04/17 08:26 PM)


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Joshua
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Re: a very nice look alike MS Carcano [Re: casper50]
      #298695 - 08/04/17 09:05 AM

I blame y'all for this lol. I am now on the hunt for a cheap bubba carcano for a project like this. All I can picture is a handy little stalking rifle. Now I just need a rifle lol hint hint

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lancaster
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Re: a very nice look alike MS Carcano [Re: Joshua]
      #307940 - 19/11/17 04:57 AM

after some time again another carcano sporter in the next Dorotheum auction

https://www.dorotheum.com/en/auctions/cu...57c7d347196e625






6,5x52 short carbine model 91/ 38 and again a russian WW 2 PU scope

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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lancaster
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Re: a very nice look alike MS Carcano [Re: lancaster]
      #312628 - 19/02/18 05:51 AM

typical austrian stutzen in 8x57IS
https://www.waffengebraucht.at/waffen/kugelrepetierer/carcano-stutzen--62069







again a single shot because the 8x57 dont fit into the carcano clip but new made clips for 8x57 held out in prospect for 2018 by AVB Tech Services
http://avbtechservices.com.au/berthier/

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by lancaster (19/02/18 03:36 PM)


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lancaster
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Re: a very nice look alike MS Carcano [Re: lancaster]
      #317207 - 11/06/18 01:32 AM

6,5x52 https://www.dorotheum.com/en/auctions/cu...age=3&img=1





--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
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Rothhammer1
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Re: a very nice look alike MS Carcano [Re: lancaster]
      #317219 - 11/06/18 02:34 PM


Pre WW2 (Stoeger 1939) 'stutzen' stocks for military surplus rifles.
No Carcano (of course), but Krag, Mauser, Enfield, Springfield:



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JDL
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Re: a very nice look alike MS Carcano [Re: Rothhammer1]
      #317315 - 16/06/18 06:10 AM

Sure would love to get one of those $48 Springfield stocks. :-)

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lancaster
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Re: a very nice look alike MS Carcano [Re: lancaster]
      #317334 - 17/06/18 12:29 AM

american style
https://imgur.com/gallery/3KNQZ









--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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lancaster
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Re: a very nice look alike MS Carcano [Re: lancaster]
      #321785 - 22/11/18 07:15 AM

6,5x52 https://www.waffengebraucht.at/waffen/kugelrepetierer/carcano-kal-65x52--94668






--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
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9.3x57
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Re: a very nice look alike MS Carcano [Re: casper50]
      #322873 - 30/12/18 08:34 AM

In going thru these pix again something dawned on me....

Lots of Carcano rifles in Germany.

And there should be.

It might be noted that after the fall of Italy huge stocks of M/C's were seized by the Germans and later, tho many different types were makes/models were issued, the Mannlicher/Carcano became the official issue rifle of the Volkssturm. So many thousands were stockpiled and issued.

So...I wonder how many of those were not turned in by demobilized Volkssturmmänner and/or were Volkssturm rifles somehow released into the hunting areas not long after the War. I seem to remember that Foresters in Germany were some of the first to be allowed access to privately held {even if not privately owned?} rifles. The Carcano rifles would be prime candidates for that.

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


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lancaster
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Re: a very nice look alike MS Carcano [Re: 9.3x57]
      #323027 - 05/01/19 09:27 PM

actually the carcano's concentrate in austria where you had allways the same situation in the last days of ww1 1918 and ww 2 1945, a lot a captured italien rifles and soldiers with the possibilitys to bring them home or hide them in the next haystack.
the short and handy MS Model 1903 was allways the ideal alpine mountain rifle. when the german Model 1888 was the grandfather of the MS, the Model 1891 was also some kind of a greatuncle and this was making it simple to sporterise the carcano in the direction of the Model 1903.

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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Carpetsahib
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Re: a very nice look alike MS Carcano [Re: lancaster]
      #323030 - 06/01/19 02:03 AM

Quote:

actually the carcano's concentrate in austria where you had allways the same situation in the last days of ww1 1918 and ww 2 1945, a lot a captured italien rifles and soldiers with the possibilitys to bring them home or hide them in the next haystack.
the short and handy MS Model 1903 was allways the ideal alpine mountain rifle. when the german Model 1888 was the grandfather of the MS, the Model 1891 was also some kind of a greatuncle and this was making it simple to sporterise the carcano in the direction of the Model 1903.


I know that civilian weapons were confiscated under the threat of the death penalty. I also know that many people did what I would have done: hide the weapons. My question is: were any civilians actually jailed or executed for possession of contraband weapons during the Allied occupation?

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9.3x57
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Re: a very nice look alike MS Carcano [Re: Carpetsahib]
      #323031 - 06/01/19 03:02 AM

Quote:




I know that civilian weapons were confiscated under the threat of the death penalty. I also know that many people did what I would have done: hide the weapons. My question is: were any civilians actually jailed or executed for possession of contraband weapons during the Allied occupation?




Great question but first, I am not certain what the actual laws were regarding weapons ownership. confiscation certainly existed during the chaos in combat areas and after, but I do remember reading that it was not too long after the war that hunters {licensed foresters??} were allowed some access to hunting weapons. I don't know the details.

Maybe kuduae could weigh in here?

I've never read of a civilian anytime after the war actually being executed for simple possession. What happened in the Eastern regions who knows, but I think even there the forestry department was armed by the mid-late '50's?

This is worthy of a separate thread all it's own I think!!

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

Edited by 9.3x57 (06/01/19 03:50 AM)


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darwinmauser
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Re: a very nice look alike MS Carcano [Re: 9.3x57]
      #323089 - 07/01/19 09:47 PM

I seem to remember a tv programme about the Russian occupied part of Germany , a couple of young boys maybe 12 or 13 were found with firearms, If I recall they were executed .

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lancaster
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Re: a very nice look alike MS Carcano [Re: lancaster]
      #328818 - 25/05/19 06:59 PM

Quote:

there is an interesting Carcano sporter variant made for the canadian market in the 1930s I will show now and like allways I collect the topic to attrac more knowledge ...





youtube find me a video about the canadian cooey carcano in 6,5x54 Mannlicher Schönauer

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DtTFXjnkUvg

and

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gR9oWCG5tGU


one for sale

https://theammosource.com/cooey-carcano-rifle-6-5x54-ms-used-1/

seems to be another one
https://www.icollector.com/Mannlicher-Ca...fle-w_i25294423








and here

[img]https://up.picr.de/35831540hd.jpeg[/img]

[img]https://up.picr.de/35831542fq.jpeg[/img]
https://www.reliablegun.com/hk/used-carc...-good-condition

love their black-white-red layout - excellent taste

two more




https://www.gunpost.ca/ads/c/firearms-1/manufacturer/carcano-334

and the history of cooey
https://calibremag.ca/cooey-canadas-gunmaker/

gets the connection to another post on nitroexpress http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat....;gonew=1#UNREAD


"COOEY: THE HISTORY OF CANADA’S GUNMAKER
Daniel Fritter
February 16, 2017
Cooey Cobourg


The final Cooey plant in Cobourg was the largest industrial plant in town.

For a variety of reasons, the history of the gun industry in Canada is somewhat abbreviated. While our neighbors to the south lay claim to such storied names as Horace Smith, John Browning, Eugene Stoner, and even one of our own in John C. Garand, Canada’s own experience in the realm of gunmaking has been generally sporadic and typically short-lived. Sure, we had the Ross rifle for a while there, but we all know how long that lasted. Then came John Inglis, who’s huge manufacturing firm did turn out massive quantities of legitimately excellent Hi-Power pistols and a myriad of machine guns for the Allied war effort… but now produces far less exciting products in the form of home appliances. And of course today we have Colt Canada, nee Diemaco. But even as difficult as Colt Canada’s, Inglis’, and Ross’ businesses ventures have proven to be, all have been predominantly federally-supported arsenal efforts. The civilian side of the industry has had an even tougher road to hoe.

Cooey even participated in local parades; trucking racks of long guns around town.

But a few decades ago, long before the socio-cultural political assault on gun ownership began in this country, one company rose from a single ignominious machine shop in Toronto to a mainstay of our national firearms industry: The H. W. Cooey Machine & Arms Company.

Like almost all great gunmakers, the story of Cooey begins with the story of a single man: Herbert William Cooey. After dropping out of an apprenticeship with the Grand Trunk Railroad and quitting a job on an assembly line, the then 23 year-old H. W. Cooey opened his first machine shop up at the corner of Queen Street and Spadina Avenue in Toronto in 1903, referring to himself as a “mechanical expert and practicing machinist.”
HW Cooey plant

Cooey’s first plant at Spadina & York.

By 1907 he’d proven his own (rather arrogant) statement to be at least partly true, when he took the wraps off an automobile of his own design that incorporated a couple innovative features, including a pre-heated fuel source and double exhaust valves. At the same time, he’d also proven a shrewd businessman, and after just four years in business the H.W. Cooey Machine Shop was forced to move across town into a larger shop at Bridgman and Howland Avenue in order to meet the demand for young Herbert’s talents.

But it wouldn’t be until the First World War that Cooey would turn his prosperous machine shop towards the manufacturing of firearms. Called into action to make various small rifle parts (including the folding peep sights fitted to the aforementioned ill-fated Ross rifle) and small-bore training rifles, Herbert Cooey’s firm rapidly set about gaining a reputation for building extremely high quality parts.

At the conclusion of hostilities, Cooey’s already successful firm found itself buoyed even further by their extensive war effort and the substantial funds it earned as a result, and Herbert wasn’t prepared to let the momentum slow. Having already seen huge successes from his time as a manufacturer of firearm parts for the Ross rifle, he began working on a complete rifle of his own design.

Debuting in 1919 as the Cooey Canuck, this single-shot .22 bolt-action rifle was an overnight sensation, and proved to be one of the most popular rifles of its time. Considered highly accurate but very affordably priced, the Canuck gained international acclaim in 1924, when the rifle won the Certificate of Honour at the British Empire Exhibition at Wembley Park; an industrial exposition created “to stimulate trade, strengthen bonds that bind mother Country to her Sister States and Daughters, to bring into closer contact the one with each other, to enable all who owe allegiance to the British flag to meet and know each other.” Winning a Certificate of Honour there was no small feat either; the Exhibition was the largest ever staged in the world in 1924, costing 12 million pounds and being attended by 27 million people.

Herbert Cooey and his wife, Suzannah.

At the same time as Cooey’s Canuck was earning fanfare at the Exhibition, Herbert himself was working towards earning some accolades of his own at the 1924 Olympics held in Paris, France. Supplying the Canadian national team with the guns they would use in no less than 10 shooting events, Herbert himself shot with the Canadian men’s trap team, who would go on to win silver at the games.

By now the company known as H. W. Cooey Machine & Gear had committed itself to the manufacture of sporting arms, and changed its name to reflect that, becoming the H. W. Cooey Machine & Arms Company. Advertising the ever-popular Canuck (later renamed the Ace) in a myriad of papers and magazines, Cooey continued to put forth an image of excellent quality and wasn’t afraid to say so with ads that read “Make mine a Cooey – I want the best,” and “Don’t Take a Substitute.” But it was the ad in a 1922 issue of Rod & Gun Canada that perhaps best defined the Cooey rifle as “The ideal Christmas present for the red-blooded boy, whether he lives in the city, the town or the country.”
Cooey’s Single-Shot Rifles: The Cooey Canuck & Model 39

The Cooey Canuck set the stage for what would become, over the course of literally decades, one of the most iconic of Cooey firearms: The single-shot .22. Perhaps best known as the Model 39, this action would also come to be known as the Ace, the Bisley Sport, Model 75, and perhaps a dozen other models, brands, and assorted nomenclatures.
Cooey

The Cooey single-shot .22 rifle would birth dozens of various models throughout its lifetime.

The first of Cooey’s designs, this single-shot action that seems so rudimentary today was quite innovative when new, due in large part to the unique automatic half-cock safety. Billed by Herbert as a “patent pending system” (although there is no evidence of patents having ever been filed) this system employed a two-part bolt that used a half-cock notch on the striker assembly to retain the striker behind the bolt face when the bolt was closed, but did not actually bring the action to a fully cocked position. To do that, the shooter would have to grasp the tail of the closed bolt, and pull rearward. This engaged the striker upon the sear and completed the task of readying the rifle for firing.

As a result of this system, the Cooey Canuck was considered one of the safest rifles of its day, which combined with its diminutive calibre to make it popular among younger shooters and, more importantly, their parents. But don’t let that fool you: This is no toy. Although various models were obviously aimed at (no pun intended) younger audiences of the day, plenty of adults flocked to the early single-shot Cooey rifles due in no small part for their exemplary reputation for accuracy. Even today, well used examples are easily capable of shooting with accuracy that is on par with or better than many mainstream modern bolt-action .22s. And since they are some of the most simple, slow-shooting guns you’ll ever come across, it is highly unlikely that anything will have been worn out through too much use!
Cooey

Simple, reliable, and safe, the Cooey made for an excellent gift for hundreds of thousands of young Canadians.

By 1929, demand for Cooey rifles had outgrown the production capacity of Herbert’s facility at Howland and Bridgman, so the new Cooey Machine & Arms Company left Toronto in favour of a new facility in Cobourg. Taking over what was Cobourg’s largest industrial building and the former home of the Ontario Woollen Mill, the new building offered four and a half stories of square footage, and gave the firm the increased manufacturing capacity Herbert desperately needed in order to grow. And grow he did… by creating yet another iconic Canadian rifle: The Cooey repeater.
A Repeater Is Born: The Model 60 & Model 600

At the heart of Cooey’s new repeater was a new action, pictured here in the author’s Model 600, and easily identifiable by a new notch cut into the receiver to accept the cocking lug on the striker; Cooey’s first actual safety. With the rifle cocked, the bolt tail is pulled rearward and rotated, placing the cocking lug into the slot and preventing the rifle from firing. Coincidentally, as some of these more modern Cooey rifles wear, they can end up re-acquiring the automatic safety system of their forebears as the striker frustratingly ends up sliding into the safety notch upon closing the bolt. But that’s nothing that can’t be fixed! Furthermore, the half-cock notch of the earlier action was retained, allowing the rifle to be carried uncocked, but loaded and with the action closed.
Cooey 600

The later Cooey Model 60 and Model 600 tube magazine-fed rifle continued the single-shot’s success.

Of course, a faster action would be useless without a magazine to feed it, and at the time during which this Cooey repeater was being created there was no clear winner in the rimfire war; .22 Short, Long, and Long Rifle were all still commonly available and widely used. So, Herbert knew his repeater needed to be capable of carrying, chambering, and firing all three. And that meant one thing: He needed a tubular magazine. Slung below the action, with a removable follower, and a small loading port positioned forward and at the 6 o’clock position the Model 60’s magazine was long enough to swallow 11 rounds of .22 Long Rifle ammunition.
Cooey 600

Marked as a Winchester rifle, this Cooey 600 was one of the rifles made after the Cobourg firm was purchased by Olin-Winchester, but before the plant moved to Lakefield.

But that desire to remain compatible with three very different lengths of ammunition also meant that rounds would need to fed from the magazine directly onto the bolt face using a Mauser-style controlled round feed. This brings us to yet another significant update to the venerable Cooey design; the dual spring-steel extractors on the bolt face. Wrapping around the top of the bolt, with protruding and bevelled claws stretching around the bolt face, this simple piece of stamped spring-steel allowed rounds to rise out of the magazine and be held affixed to the bolt face as the bolt was closed. The bevelled extractors prevented the round from rising too high on the bolt face, and the magazine below prevented the round from sitting too low on the bolt face, meaning the round would sit at approximately the right height to allow it to feed into the chamber, and the bolt to close behind it. During extraction, the dual extractor claws provided a ton of gripping area to pull the fired casing out of the chamber, and allowed the next round to push the fired casing up and out from between the spring steel claws, which would snap back around the loaded round now on the bolt face, allowing the cycle to repeat.

As one of Cooey’s most popular rifles, the Cooey Repeater (best known as the 60 and 600 but also having been available under numerous other names) was rugged and reliable, and brought the same level of accuracy Cooey’s single shot rifles were known for to a much more practical package. However, there is no getting around the fact that these are far more complex rifles, and they can be incredibly frustrating when they start to break down. Key parts to keep an eye on include the spring steel extractor, the magazine tube, and the follower. Usually, problems of unreliable ejection can be traced back to shooters too softly working the action, as the rifle’s ability to properly eject and feed rounds is directly related to the force with which the action is manipulated. However, be judicious in your heavy-handedness, as you obviously don’t want to beat the gun up unnecessarily.
Cooey 600

The relatively unique Cooey action still works reliably all these years later, but parts can be difficult to source.

Having created the wildly popular Model 60 repeating rifle in 1939, Cooey once again soon found himself embroiled in another war-effort economy. And again, he tooled up to support the effort, creating the Model 82 training rifle during World War II (which earned a contract for the procurement of 34,810 rifles by the army and R.C.A.F. Air Cadet Corps). Designed to mimic the look and, to a lesser degree, the handling of a full-size Lee Enfield rifle the Model 82 or M82 was little more than a Lee Enfield-style stock on a convention Model 39. However, the rifle’s historical relevance and relative rarity make it something of a collector’s piece today. And coincidentally, many are still in active service with the Royal Canadian Air Cadet Corp! But, just like in the months and years following World War I, the Cooey firm was keen to keep growing, and expanding their product offerings. So, with Herbert’s son Hubert taking on much of the design work at the company, the two Cooeys directed their engineering talents towards Cooey senior’s own passion: Shotguns.
The Model 84: Cooey’s Break-Action Smoothbore

It is somewhat fitting that one of the first guns designed by Hubert Cooey would also represent a massive departure from the Cooey tradition of rimfire rifle manufacturing. However, as disparate as a smoothbore may have been from Cooey’s bread and butter, Hubert was obviously raised in the Cooey culture and so knew that any shotgun bearing the Cooey name needed to marry practicality, reliability, and value. The best solution? A single-shot break-action.
Cooey 84

The Cooey 84/840 is a Canadian gem; handling very nicely and proving incredibly robust.

A massive change from the usual Cooey production, the Model 84 debuted in 1948 as a svelte and compact single-shot break-action shotgun in .410, 28-, 20-, 16-, and 12-guage. Simplicity was at the forefront of Hubert’s mind while creating the 84, as the simple single-shot design kept the lockwork separate from the action and required the shooter load the gun and then cock it in a separate action unlike many other break-action shotguns. As a result, shooters were expected to keep the gun broken or uncocked until ready to shoot, so there are no external safeties. Barrel lengths varied greatly from 26” to 36” long, and although early models were restricted to 2-3/4” long chambers, later Model 840s (the nomenclature change denoting guns made after the 1961 acquisition of Cooey Machine & Arms Co. by Winchester) had 3” long chambers.

The ethos of simplicity is even more evident in breaking the Model 84 down. Unlike most other break-action guns, there is no latch under the fore-end to secure the forestock to the barrels; instead it is simply held in place by spring tension. Simply pulling the forestock away from the barrels releases it. From there, the gun is further broken down by opening the action (which, coincidentally, can be done by pushing the lever left or right) and pulling the barrels off their pivot, like one would any other break-action.

Breaking down simply, and with so few moving parts, many 84 and 840s remain in use today.

The Model 84 and 840 remained exceptionally popular throughout the gun’s 31-year production run. Over 1.9 million of these shotguns would leave the Cobourg factory before the Cooey brand was mothballed, and Winchester would follow up on the 84/840’s success with their own Model 370, 395, 168, and 37A; all based upon Cooey’s design. And it’s not hard to see why. With a slender receiver, a reliable action, and an excellent balance it is a very sought-after shotgun.

Unfortunately, tragedy would befall the Cooey family in the late ‘50s, with Hubert passing away suddenly and unexpectedly in 1957. Herbert would come out of retirement to head the firm that bore his name for a few brief years before selling Cooey Machine and Arms to the Olin Corporation in 1961, shortly before his own death in the February of 1962 at age 80. Two years later, Olin had already placed Cooey under the management of their Winchester-Western Division, and Cooey would launch their most successful design to date; a design that combined the firm’s knowledge of rimfire rifles with the more modern desire for a reliable semi-automatic repeater. That rifle? The last rifle a Cooey would design, and the only Cooey product still in production today: The Model 64.
The Model 64: Cooey’s Continued Living Legacy

Officially launched in 1964 (the same year Ruger launched the 10/22), the Cooey Model 64 had roots in the mid-50’s, when Hubert Cooey recognized Cooey’s need for a semi-automatic repeater to join their strong bolt-action lineup.
Savage 64

The Savage 64, originally known as the Lakefield 64b, was the last gun design penned by a Cooey.

Borrowing heavily from his father’s work on the Model 39, Hubert took a similar bolt, receiver, and trigger design and matched it with a simple direct-blowback system operated via a small action spring mounted to the tail of the bolt assembly. Then, he fitted the trigger group with a simple lever-style safety not unlike that found on the Remington Model 700 (introduced in 1962), and designed a simple but effective 10-round box magazine from which the blowback action would reliably feed.
Savage

Still made in the Lakefield plant, where much of Cooey’s manufacturing equipment and staff went, the Savage’s design is almost unchanged.

Unfortunately, as simple as the gun was, Hubert would die before the project was seen through to completion. Likewise, Herbert would find himself somewhat overwhelmed when he returned from retirement to take command of the company once again after his son’s passing, a fact that many indicate as a key motive behind his sale to the Olin Corporation. But Olin, the conglomerate behind Winchester, recognized the value in Hubert’s design and ordered Cooey to put the lightweight and simple Model 64 into production to give the brand something with which to compete against the likes of the Marlin Model 60 and equally new Ruger 10/22.

Like all Cooey firearms, the Model 64 was immediately regarded as simple, efficient, reliable and most of all, a bargain. Even ten years after its introduction the Model 64 would still be available here in Canada for less than $50. Sadly though, even with the long track record of producing excellent products, it wasn’t long before political and labour issues forced the closure of Herbert’s long-lived Cobourg facility in 1979. But, through some fortunate happenstance, the machinery and hardware used within the Cooey plant would find a new home down the road in Lakefield, Ontario with the aptly named Lakefield Arms Company; a company where many former Cooey employees would also find their next job.
Savage

In continual production for decades, the Savage/Lakefield 64 is one of only a handful of Canadian-made guns on the market today.

But Lakefield Arms didn’t just get Cooey’s hardware. They also got the rights to Cooey’s Model 64. So, with the machinery moved and many of the same people manning it, Lakefield Arms retooled the production line and began production of their own Model 64; the Lakefield Arms Model 64B. Even after Lakefield Arms was purchased by Savage Arms in 1995 the production of Hubert Cooey’s Model 64 continued right up to the present day. Now known as the Savage Arms Model 64, it remains one of Savage’s most popular offerings, with no less than six different sub-models currently available.

Before Cooey was dissolved entirely, it is estimated that approximately 12 million firearms would leave Cooey’s various factories. From 1919 until April 1961, production schedules remained a relatively steady 20 firearms per day, which increased dramatically when the firm was sold to Winchester, who in turn replaced the Cobourg facility’s aged machinery with modern hardware. This increased the plant’s production capacity to 2,000 firearms per day. Over 67 different models of firearm would fill the Cooey catalog eventually, with numerous other firearms produced for other brands such as Hiawatha, Iver Johnson, Winchester, Mercury and various others.
Cooey

While most Cooey designs are relegated to the history books, Savage’s 64 keeps at least one Cooey design in production.

That Cooeys are basic, affordable guns cannot be debated. But there’s something about them. They are part of our nation’s shooting heritage. For many of us, they’re the first guns we ever laid hands on, and undoubtedly for many more they will provide a similar service again as we introduce our own young ones to the shooting hobby. They’re rugged, they’re reliable, and they represent a time in Canada’s past when it wasn’t untoward to give a young boy a rifle for his birthday. So if you happen to be lucky enough to own one of these rifles, hold onto it. Look after it. And use it. It’s what they were designed for."

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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lancaster
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Re: a very nice look alike MS Carcano [Re: lancaster]
      #330004 - 11/07/19 04:00 AM

a 6,5x57 single shot stalking rifle http://egun.de/market/item.php?id=7533303

























--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
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lancaster
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Re: a very nice look alike MS Carcano [Re: lancaster]
      #333664 - 21/10/19 06:33 AM

6,5x52 Carcano https://www.waffengebraucht.at/waffen/kugelrepetierer/repetierer-65-carcano--139079





another https://www.waffengebraucht.at/waffen/militaria/tolle-jagdwaffe--138904











--------------------
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.
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lancaster
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Re: a very nice look alike MS Carcano [Re: lancaster]
      #345065 - 13/09/20 04:21 PM

https://www.waffengebraucht.at/waffen/kugelrepetierer/stutzen-in-65-carcano--317572









--------------------
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vykkagur
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Re: a very nice look alike MS Carcano [Re: lancaster]
      #345264 - 23/09/20 02:52 AM

Quote:

a 6,5x57 single shot stalking rifle http://egun.de/market/item.php?id=7533303





























A beautiful single-shot conversion in an excellent chambering. After going to all this work, I wonder why the maker chose to leave the magazine catch in the trigger guard? It's not that it's anything but a cosmetic issue, but he did a great job of cutting down the magazine housing and fabricating a floor plate. In his position, I'd have dispensed with the redundant catch parts, filled the opening, and radiused it smoothly into the floor plate. The unused moving parts sitting there look out of place, like they're hanging about waiting for the next bus to come along.


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Marrakai
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Re: a very nice look alike MS Carcano [Re: vykkagur]
      #345269 - 23/09/20 09:02 AM

Don't intend to be critical, it is a worthwhile conversion that's for sure, but I would have fitted lower sights, even if it meant bending the buttstock down a smidge.

Assume the original military stock was used? (mag insert grain doesn't match) otherwise stocked to the muzzle and a pistol-grip would be nice.

This thread (along with Lancaster's interesting project) certainly goes to show that these common-as Carcano actions shouldn't be written off as the basis for a petite light-weight stalking rifle!

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
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vykkagur
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Re: a very nice look alike MS Carcano [Re: Marrakai]
      #345276 - 23/09/20 03:43 PM

Quote:

Don't intend to be critical, it is a worthwhile conversion that's for sure, but I would have fitted lower sights, even if it meant bending the buttstock down a smidge.

Assume the original military stock was used? (mag insert grain doesn't match) otherwise stocked to the muzzle and a pistol-grip would be nice.

This thread (along with Lancaster's interesting project) certainly goes to show that these common-as Carcano actions shouldn't be written off as the basis for a petite light-weight stalking rifle!





They can make excellent stalking rifles. I've carried a Cooey-Carcano (6.5x54 MS w/double triggers) and it's an absolute joy.

The mag insert may be original. I wouldn't be at all surprised if this wasn't made from one of the original Krieghoff 1945 Volkssturm carbines, which were 8x57 single shots with a wooden mag block. With the action already modified to the 8x57 case (the ones made by KW were well done, and safe to use, which is more than can be said for the postwar conversions for the Middle East), all that would be required was re-barrelling to a proper 6.5mm (.264).


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lancaster
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Re: a very nice look alike MS Carcano [Re: lancaster]
      #346853 - 14/11/20 04:37 PM

https://www.waffengebraucht.at/waffen/kugelrepetierer/stutzen-in-65-carcano--317572









--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
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Re: a very nice look alike MS Carcano [Re: lancaster]
      #366473 - 09/06/22 02:34 AM

https://www.dorotheum.com/en/l/8094977/





--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
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93x64mm
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Re: a very nice look alike MS Carcano [Re: lancaster]
      #366516 - 09/06/22 10:09 PM

How hard is it to get the enbloc clips for these guys now-a-days?
Carcanos used to be very cheap here in Oz back in the 70-80's.


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Marrakai
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Re: a very nice look alike MS Carcano [Re: 93x64mm]
      #366615 - 11/06/22 11:09 AM

Quote:

How hard is it to get the enbloc clips for these guys now-a-days?



There always seems to be a few of these for sale most of the time, but their scarcity does push the price up.

I was looking a while back, seeing around twenty bucks a clip being asked on-line, but ended up doing a swap with a mate.

Pretty sure I mentioned it here somewhere: I bought a Terni Carcano a while back, a cut-down rifle retaining wood to the muzzle like a MS 1903, with a neat after-market metal nose-cap. Will toss up some photos on a new thread FYI when I get time.

Nice little sporters when converted, that's for sure.
Everything said about the 6.5 Mannlicher probably applies equally here.
...except perhaps the slickness of the action!

--------------------
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--------------------------------
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Re: a very nice look alike MS Carcano [Re: Marrakai]
      #366629 - 11/06/22 11:59 PM

change the little spring that drive the "ejector" bolt upwards. normaly its very stiff and press against the bolt so a softer spring will make it easier to cicle.

--------------------
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Re: a very nice look alike MS Carcano [Re: lancaster]
      #366643 - 12/06/22 08:53 AM

Thanks for that excellent advice, lancaster!

Will investigate...

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
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Re: a very nice look alike MS Carcano [Re: Marrakai]
      #366660 - 12/06/22 05:24 PM

iirc, the spring is here inside




its the reason you hold the carcano upside down with open bolt and the bolt will not close by gravity

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Marrakai
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Re: a very nice look alike MS Carcano [Re: lancaster]
      #366664 - 12/06/22 07:20 PM

Sounds like a good reason to try swapping it out for a Bic biro spring!

Seriously, did that with the trigger on my Ruger M77 .308. Works a treat!

But thanks for the instructional pic there lancaster, appreciated.
Will definitely try a lighter spring in the Carcano, but no, not a biro spring on a military trigger or ejector!

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
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lancaster
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Re: a very nice look alike MS Carcano [Re: 93x64mm]
      #368923 - 03/09/22 04:23 AM

stutzen, rechambered for 6,5x54 MS https://www.waffengebraucht.at/waffen/kugelrepetierer/carcano-gebirgsstutzen--433106











--------------------
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93x64mm
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Re: a very nice look alike MS Carcano [Re: lancaster]
      #368924 - 03/09/22 06:32 AM

Handy little piece Lancaster!
Cool for end being a piece of antler


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yumastepside
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Re: a very nice look alike MS Carcano [Re: 93x64mm]
      #379048 - 02/09/23 05:57 PM

A little more work on my 35 Carcano....



Roger

--------------------
If you live for a thousand years, you still only have one life, don't waste it.


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yumastepside
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Re: a very nice look alike MS Carcano [Re: yumastepside]
      #379392 - 16/09/23 03:26 PM

Did a bit of playing around with optic mounts...



...I think a red dot would be the go....

Roger

--------------------
If you live for a thousand years, you still only have one life, don't waste it.


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93x64mm
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Re: a very nice look alike MS Carcano [Re: yumastepside]
      #379397 - 16/09/23 09:18 PM

Quote:

A little more work on my 35 Carcano....



Roger




What's the calibre Yuma - .35???


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yumastepside
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Re: a very nice look alike MS Carcano [Re: 93x64mm]
      #379398 - 16/09/23 10:07 PM

Fitted a 358 barrel from a 35 Sambar, cut the chamber off and reamed to 6.5x54 MS with a 35 cal pilot then 35 neck and shoulder reamer.
What I call " 35 Carcano ", a bit more than a 35 Remington and a bit less than 358 Win.
I'm about to start developing a load for it using 180gr hard cast powdercoated projectiles, most likely 356 Win load data or 358 Win start loads.



L-R 35 Rem, 35 Carcano, 30-30 Win

Roger

--------------------
If you live for a thousand years, you still only have one life, don't waste it.

Edited by yumastepside (17/09/23 08:32 AM)


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9.3x57
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Re: a very nice look alike MS Carcano [Re: yumastepside]
      #379399 - 16/09/23 10:36 PM

Quote:

Fitted a 358 barrel from a 35 Sambar, cut the chamber off and reamed to 6.5x54 MS with a 35 cal pilot.
What I call " 35 Carcano ", a bit more than a 35 Remington and a bit less than 358 Win.
I'm about to start developing a load for it using 180gr hard cast powdercoated projectiles, most likely 356 Win load data or 358 Win start loads.

Roger




Question:

When you open the bolt on a M/C, can you spin the bolt sleeve/cocking piece or is there some sort of detent or lock that keeps it in place?

The Swede 94/96 lacks such a lock and in a video Ian McCollum who is also left handed like I am had issues w/ the M/C functioning left handed as he bumped the open bolt and caused the sleeve to turn thus fouling and preventing closure of the bolt.

From reading on the M/C I think it looks like an interesting action for a project like yours but as a lefty, I'm curious about this.

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


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yumastepside
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Re: a very nice look alike MS Carcano [Re: 9.3x57]
      #379406 - 17/09/23 08:21 AM

Nope! On both of my Terni Carcano's the cocking piece is stopped from rotating by the safety tab when in the open position and when closed and cocked, the cocking piece guide is inside the feed rail.

Roger

--------------------
If you live for a thousand years, you still only have one life, don't waste it.


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lancaster
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Re: a very nice look alike MS Carcano [Re: yumastepside]
      #379407 - 17/09/23 03:09 PM

I would say the safety of the carcano - genius as it is, maybe the best of all military rifles - is a pain to use for a left hander.

yumastepside, you are the real inventor of the 35 Carcano? why not perpetuate yourself on this wildcat with a name like .35 YSS-Carcano or similar?

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
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yumastepside
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Re: a very nice look alike MS Carcano [Re: lancaster]
      #379413 - 17/09/23 10:20 PM

Thanks but no.

Roger

--------------------
If you live for a thousand years, you still only have one life, don't waste it.


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9.3x57
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Re: a very nice look alike MS Carcano [Re: yumastepside]
      #379415 - 17/09/23 11:30 PM

Quote:

Thanks but no.

Roger




That's a really neat project.

Years ago I remember reading of M/C's being rebarreled to 7.62x39 & read of a mod made to a Ruger Mini-30 in necking the case up to .35. 180 grain bullets were about the max weight useful in that rifle tho.

Your idea sounds better as the extra powder capacity will be useful.

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


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yumastepside
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Re: a very nice look alike MS Carcano [Re: 9.3x57]
      #379430 - 18/09/23 08:29 AM

I've found that the expanded case is almost identical to the 356 Win. so it should be able to use up to a 220 or even 250 gr pill. Other than buffalo and some of the larger deer, we don't really have any large or dangerous game here, but I think this round and it's light and handy rifle would be great for pigs, Fallow and any of our general game.

Roger

--------------------
If you live for a thousand years, you still only have one life, don't waste it.


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lancaster
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Re: a very nice look alike MS Carcano [Re: yumastepside]
      #379782 - 02/10/23 06:22 AM

https://www.waffengebraucht.at/waffen/re...hr-1913--506149



















--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
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yumastepside
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Re: a very nice look alike MS Carcano [Re: lancaster]
      #379783 - 02/10/23 07:19 AM

Very nice, I love those old style carbines.

Roger

--------------------
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DarylS
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Re: a very nice look alike MS Carcano [Re: yumastepside]
      #379788 - 02/10/23 10:39 AM

Consider the working pressure for the 6.5 Carcano is 41,000 PSI (Pezio) CIP and the .356 Winchester is 60,000 PSI (Pezio) CIP and the .358 Winch. is 59,000 PSI (Pezio) CIP, I'd go easy on those .356 loads for your wildcat.
Very interesting ctg. though.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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yumastepside
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Re: a very nice look alike MS Carcano [Re: DarylS]
      #379791 - 02/10/23 05:50 PM

I don't know if it would be a big problem, many of these were converted to 6.5x54 MS which runs 52.000 PSI and even 6.5x55 Swedes, as a single shot, and even a few in .308 Win. From what I've read, the Italians paid a lot for the steel recipe and they are quite a strong action, just not a popular one...

Roger

--------------------
If you live for a thousand years, you still only have one life, don't waste it.

Edited by yumastepside (02/10/23 05:52 PM)


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lancaster
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Re: a very nice look alike MS Carcano [Re: yumastepside]
      #379792 - 03/10/23 12:00 AM

original action and barrel rebore for 8x57IS is safe

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
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DarylS
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Re: a very nice look alike MS Carcano [Re: lancaster]
      #379795 - 03/10/23 02:33 AM

8x57's all ran 57,000psi CIP, seems to me.
Of course, the .308 is 62,000psi.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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9.3x57
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Re: a very nice look alike MS Carcano [Re: lancaster]
      #379804 - 03/10/23 11:44 AM

Quote:

original action and barrel rebore for 8x57IS is safe




A friend of mine had one of those Volksgewehr M/C 8x57's. The barrel unscrewed by merely twisting it with the hand!!

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What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


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lancaster
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Re: a very nice look alike MS Carcano [Re: 9.3x57]
      #381820 - 08/01/24 06:49 AM

a typical 1950s austrian hunting rifle https://www.waffengebraucht.at/waffen/repetiererbuechse/carcano-m38-jagdlich--524894













--------------------
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.
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93x64mm
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Re: a very nice look alike MS Carcano [Re: lancaster]
      #381835 - 09/01/24 07:03 AM

That would have a bark alright with such a short barrel!
Great mountain rifle though.


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DarylS
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Re: a very nice look alike MS Carcano [Re: 93x64mm]
      #381850 - 10/01/24 01:24 AM

I am reminded now, of a local chap who has a M93 commercially turned into a .308 Winchester. I've no idea where he got it from.

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Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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lancaster
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Re: a very nice look alike MS Carcano [Re: DarylS]
      #381852 - 10/01/24 03:21 AM

with a mannlicher M 93 the problem would be the en-block clip for the 6,5x53R. I don't know if it was possible to change it for the 308 win case. the so called irisch mannlicher M 1904 would be the right thing for this modification.
this was a M 93 where the magazine was changed by the Steyr factory for the german M 88 commission rifle clip.


http://www.hungariae.com/Mann04.htm

and

https://www.highwoodclassicarms.co.uk/Firerms%20For%20Sale/0067.htm

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
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Re: a very nice look alike MS Carcano [Re: lancaster]
      #381853 - 10/01/24 08:18 AM

I'm pretty sure it is a Mauser M93. It's not a 94 or 96.
Just googled the Mauser 93 NOPE! I must have been a rebarreled Carcano due to the bolt being identical to a Carcano. What was done with the en-block magazine, I don't remember.
The bolt was NOT a Mauser bolt.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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lancaster
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Re: a very nice look alike MS Carcano [Re: DarylS]
      #381864 - 11/01/24 03:21 AM

M 93 is the spanish mauser and some of them got a new barrel in 7,62 Nato /308 Win in the 1950/60s so the mystery and misunderstanding is loosed

--------------------
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9.3x57
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Re: a very nice look alike MS Carcano [Re: lancaster]
      #381865 - 11/01/24 03:33 AM

Quote:

M 93 is the spanish mauser and some of them got a new barrel in 7,62 Nato /308 Win in the 1950/60s so the mystery and misunderstanding is loosed




No mystery here. Tons of those small ring Mausers were sold here. Back in the 90's they were dirt cheap. Spanish .308s on the small ring actions. Some 91's also along with Turkish 93's and of course Spanish & Turkish 98 actions rebarreled to .308.

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

Edited by 9.3x57 (11/01/24 03:37 AM)


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DarylS
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Re: a very nice look alike MS Carcano [Re: 9.3x57]
      #381866 - 11/01/24 04:58 AM

Well, thanks. There ya go! But, it did not have the bolt shroud of the Model 94's and 96's.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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9.3x57
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Re: a very nice look alike MS Carcano [Re: DarylS]
      #381868 - 11/01/24 05:15 AM

Quote:

Well, thanks. There ya go! But, it did not have the bolt shroud of the Model 94's and 96's.




The 91 has a similar BS as the 94's etc. It does not have the long claw extractor. You can just make out the small extractor in this pic:



Did the bolt handle lock down behind or thru/in front of the rear receiver ring, ie, was the rear receiver ring split? If so I wonder if it was a rebarreled Portuguese Mauser-Vergueiro (which is actually a blended Mannlicher/Mauser)?

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

Edited by 9.3x57 (11/01/24 06:31 AM)


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lancaster
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Re: a very nice look alike MS Carcano [Re: 9.3x57]
      #381870 - 11/01/24 07:08 AM

Quote:

Quote:

M 93 is the spanish mauser and some of them got a new barrel in 7,62 Nato /308 Win in the 1950/60s so the mystery and misunderstanding is loosed




No mystery here. Tons of those small ring Mausers were sold here. Back in the 90's they were dirt cheap. Spanish .308s on the small ring actions. Some 91's also along with Turkish 93's and of course Spanish & Turkish 98 actions rebarreled to .308.




the mystery was that daryl mention a M 93 "I am reminded now, of a local chap who has a M93 commercially turned into a .308 Winchester. I've no idea where he got it from." which I identified here naturally as a Mannlicher M 93 ( the Romania Mannlicher). this would have been a little problem if reworked for the 308 Win so I suggest the Mannlicher M 1904 in 8x57I.
in the early 90s a M 93 spanisch mauser in 308 came close to be my first rifle for this cartridge but the dealer don't get it then and I bought a FR 8.

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
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JDL
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Re: a very nice look alike MS Carcano [Re: casper50]
      #381898 - 13/01/24 02:53 AM

I love looking at these old war relics converted to nice looking hunting rifles. Thanks lancaster!

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9.3x57
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Re: a very nice look alike MS Carcano [Re: JDL]
      #381901 - 13/01/24 03:17 AM

Quote:

I love looking at these old war relics converted to nice looking hunting rifles. Thanks lancaster!




I agree. lancaster's threads of Euro rifles are awesome.

We have innumerable examples here, thousands and thousands of "converted" milsurp rifles to hunting rifles but w/ a huge difference, that being except for a very few action types the VAST preponderance of them are basement hacksaw jobs, not the skilled gunsmith reworks lanc posts from over there. I had really no idea such a body of high quality modifications even existed in Europe until I started following lancasters threads. His are tops!

--------------------
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93x64mm
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Re: a very nice look alike MS Carcano [Re: 9.3x57]
      #381911 - 13/01/24 07:29 AM

Quote:

Quote:

I love looking at these old war relics converted to nice looking hunting rifles. Thanks lancaster!




I agree. lancaster's threads of Euro rifles are awesome.

We have innumerable examples here, thousands and thousands of "converted" milsurp rifles to hunting rifles but w/ a huge difference, that being except for a very few action types the VAST preponderance of them are basement hacksaw jobs, not the skilled gunsmith reworks lanc posts from over there. I had really no idea such a body of high quality modifications even existed in Europe until I started following lancasters threads. His are tops!




Nailed it mate!
Keep send them in Lancaster


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lancaster
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Re: a very nice look alike MS Carcano [Re: 93x64mm]
      #382470 - 12/02/24 02:46 AM

thanks, I see them anyway when watching the market so its on the way to safe the pics for the future.
in the case of the carcarno it was a reminder of the economic hard postwar years when such military rifles, often hid somewhere for a long time were taken to the gunmaker to become the initial outfiting.
nobody realy work about this topic before so its a kind of basic to get some knowledge what happen.

--------------------
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9.3x57
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Re: a very nice look alike MS Carcano [Re: lancaster]
      #382471 - 12/02/24 03:20 AM

This is a tidbit of info I find interesting in relation to your posts.

https://www.verfassungen.de/de45-49/kr-befehl2.htm

Controls were lifted it appears in the West in 1950. Were military surplus rifles then introduced to the legal market at that time? Did government sell them to civilians? Or did they just "reappear" from basements, attics and holes in the wall?

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


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DarylS
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Re: a very nice look alike MS Carcano [Re: 9.3x57]
      #382472 - 12/02/24 03:48 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Well, thanks. There ya go! But, it did not have the bolt shroud of the Model 94's and 96's.




The 91 has a similar BS as the 94's etc. It does not have the long claw extractor. You can just make out the small extractor in this pic:



Did the bolt handle lock down behind or thru/in front of the rear receiver ring, ie, was the rear receiver ring split? If so I wonder if it was a rebarreled Portuguese Mauser-Vergueiro (which is actually a blended Mannlicher/Mauser)?




Now that, I don't remember, the extractor nor the bolt position. At the time, I do recall thinking I would not shoot it, myself.
Seems to me, it also had a barrel shorter than 20".

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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9.3x57
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Re: a very nice look alike MS Carcano [Re: DarylS]
      #382474 - 12/02/24 03:59 AM

Quote:

Now that, I don't remember, the extractor nor the bolt position. At the time, I do recall thinking I would not shoot it, myself.
Seems to me, it also had a barrel shorter than 20".




This guy?

trying to get the pic to load. Uhg.



https://greatnorthgunco.ca/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/IMG_8312-2048x1045.jpg

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

Edited by 9.3x57 (12/02/24 04:01 AM)


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lancaster
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Re: a very nice look alike MS Carcano [Re: 9.3x57]
      #382475 - 12/02/24 05:06 AM

Quote:

This is a tidbit of info I find interesting in relation to your posts.

https://www.verfassungen.de/de45-49/kr-befehl2.htm

Controls were lifted it appears in the West in 1950. Were military surplus rifles then introduced to the legal market at that time? Did government sell them to civilians? Or did they just "reappear" from basements, attics and holes in the wall?




Personally I would give a fxxx in such a situation on such order and you can imagine that enough stuff was hidden somewhere. Under the russians it was extrem critical because you would go to siberia for sure.
Coming back to the carcanos its an austrian phenomenum. Lots of carcanos ending in the alps when war endet and they had enough time to hide them in barns and similar buildings before allied occupation troops arive. Shotguns for hunting were maybe allow there around 1950 and after 1955 they were able to do what they want.
What they were realy wanting was the Mannlicher Schönauer M 1903 in 6,5x54 because this was THE rifle for the mountain hunter. If you can't get it or don't had the money to buy after 1955 because it was an expensive thing you maybe had this caracano carbine in the barn from 1945 sometimes out for poaching when the coast is clear.
After the post war years your local gunmaker was happy to open up his shop again and labour was cheap so he make you something similar light and handy like the little Schönauer Stutzen.
When times became better you bought a new rifle and the old carcano stands than in the old
wardrobe.

--------------------
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9.3x57
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Re: a very nice look alike MS Carcano [Re: lancaster]
      #382477 - 12/02/24 05:16 AM

I'd suspect the availability of M/C's was higher than some others also as it was designated the standard rifle of the Volkssturm, tho obviously no such true standardization occurred. Regardless, I'd think there might very well be a relatively high number of M/C's in the hands of civilians as a result.

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


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DarylS
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Re: a very nice look alike MS Carcano [Re: 9.3x57]
      #382483 - 12/02/24 12:50 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Now that, I don't remember, the extractor nor the bolt position. At the time, I do recall thinking I would not shoot it, myself.
Seems to me, it also had a barrel shorter than 20".




This guy?

trying to get the pic to load. Uhg.



https://greatnorthgunco.ca/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/IMG_8312-2048x1045.jpg




Dang- you know, that might be it, but the forend had been shortened.
I recall the front sight was a huge V, pointed up, of course.

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Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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9.3x57
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Re: a very nice look alike MS Carcano [Re: DarylS]
      #382484 - 12/02/24 01:04 PM

Quote:

Dang- you know, that might be it, but the forend had been shortened.
I recall the front sight was a huge V, pointed up, of course.






top cut down and minus the extra hardware?

--------------------
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Re: a very nice look alike MS Carcano [Re: 9.3x57]
      #382506 - 13/02/24 05:06 AM

Bottom 98 looks nice. Is that front receiver ring dovetailed lengthwise?

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Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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lancaster
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Re: a very nice look alike MS Carcano [Re: DarylS]
      #382822 - 24/02/24 09:08 PM

here not a carbine but the M 91/41 rifle https://www.dorotheum.com/de/l/8946029/#





--------------------
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lancaster
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Re: a very nice look alike MS Carcano [Re: lancaster]
      #382884 - 27/02/24 05:10 AM

and here again a carbine build into a hunting rifle https://www.egun.de/market/item.php?id=19329805













--------------------
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Re: a very nice look alike MS Carcano [Re: lancaster]
      #382891 - 27/02/24 07:13 AM

The scope would be offset on these Lancaster to aid loading the en-block clip?
Or can it be loaded from underneath, still falling out when empty?


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9.3x57
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Re: a very nice look alike MS Carcano [Re: 93x64mm]
      #382893 - 27/02/24 07:41 AM

lancaster:

I'm not sure if this has been asked before but are you aware of any magazine conversions of these rifles to function without the clips?

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


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Re: a very nice look alike MS Carcano [Re: 9.3x57]
      #382904 - 27/02/24 10:53 AM


There appears to be enough room to load from the top.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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kuduae
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Re: a very nice look alike MS Carcano [Re: DarylS]
      #382918 - 28/02/24 12:13 AM



That’s an early pre-1910 2 ½x “Skopar B” scope by Voigtlaender, Brunswik, Germany.


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lancaster
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Re: a very nice look alike MS Carcano [Re: kuduae]
      #382926 - 28/02/24 03:52 AM

amazing, I would say its a 1950s gunmaker work. in any case enough to shoot the roebuck in may.

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
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yumastepside
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Re: a very nice look alike MS Carcano [Re: lancaster]
      #382932 - 28/02/24 08:51 AM

Keep your plastic fantastics, to this old fart that's a nice looking rifle !!

Roger

--------------------
If you live for a thousand years, you still only have one life, don't waste it.


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9.3x57
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Re: a very nice look alike MS Carcano [Re: DarylS]
      #382933 - 28/02/24 08:55 AM

Quote:


There appears to be enough room to load from the top.




Yes that one does.

lancaster:

Have you ever come across one with a magazine modification to take ammo w/o clips?

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


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Re: a very nice look alike MS Carcano [Re: 9.3x57]
      #382961 - 29/02/24 04:50 AM

not that I see it on a rifle, the only one - you know it- is my own with the CZ 527 magazine.
I had the idea to build it with a clip and spring loaded feed lip but it dont work because of 7,62x39 cartridge oal in the action.
there must be a sako magazine that can be used with cartridges like 6,5x52 or 35 remington in this rifle.

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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lancaster
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Re: a very nice look alike MS Carcano [Re: lancaster]
      #384397 - 22/04/24 04:38 AM

this Carcano was made very much like a Mannlicher Schönauer 1903 stutzen




see this text book mannlicher schönauer for comparison, close as possible











Waefler in Turin, a german name






3 rounds magazine




--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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Re: a very nice look alike MS Carcano [Re: lancaster]
      #384398 - 22/04/24 05:39 AM

Did the military Carcano have a magazine arrangement like the Mauser?

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9.3x57
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Re: a very nice look alike MS Carcano [Re: 93x64mm]
      #384399 - 22/04/24 05:44 AM

Quote:

Did the military Carcano have a magazine arrangement like the Mauser?




Not like the Gewehr 98. En bloc clip only. Mannlicher clip similar to the Gewehr 88.

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


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yumastepside
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Re: a very nice look alike MS Carcano [Re: 9.3x57]
      #384407 - 22/04/24 06:34 PM



....it doesn't show it but the enbloc clip drops out the bottom after the last round.

Roger

--------------------
If you live for a thousand years, you still only have one life, don't waste it.

Edited by yumastepside (22/04/24 06:36 PM)


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Re: a very nice look alike MS Carcano [Re: yumastepside]
      #384410 - 22/04/24 07:08 PM

Interesting, then this must have a sort of staggered magazine then to fit in the stock?

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9.3x57
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Re: a very nice look alike MS Carcano [Re: 93x64mm]
      #384419 - 22/04/24 10:43 PM

Quote:

Interesting, then this must have a sort of staggered magazine then to fit in the stock?




Looks like a singlestack. Very slick looking. I've always wondered if there was such a modification available. Not enough commercial market I suppose but I reckon there are a lot of Mannlicher rifles that sit idle due to lack of clips.

They were originally a disposable item, w/ ammo often being issued in clips. I'm guessing the various mils that issued them collected them and reused them in training but in combat/service use, I suppose most just hit the ground and were lost like Garand clips which are, of course, Mannlicher clips themselves.

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What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


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lancaster
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Re: a very nice look alike MS Carcano [Re: 9.3x57]
      #384427 - 23/04/24 03:58 AM

I think this single stack magazine was used more than one time. maybe a small firm in Ferlach/austria was making this part sometimes between 1920 and maybe 1960s.
we will see this again.
when the rifle here get a spoon handle it will be a perfect copy of a MS Mod. 1903.

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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yumastepside
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Re: a very nice look alike MS Carcano [Re: lancaster]
      #384547 - 28/04/24 02:04 PM

OK, we're pretty much settled in to our new, to us, house and I am finally able to find some stuff in all these boxes...went to the range yesterday and fireformed a few cases for the 35 Carcano.



....from the left...

35 Remington, 35 Carcano, 358 Winchester and my own 9.3x55 Imp.

Roger

--------------------
If you live for a thousand years, you still only have one life, don't waste it.

Edited by yumastepside (28/04/24 02:07 PM)


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lancaster
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Re: a very nice look alike MS Carcano [Re: yumastepside]
      #384567 - 29/04/24 03:30 PM

is the .35 carcano your own wildcat? looks like it could do what the .358 Win is for.
whats the 9,3x55Imp. - a necked up 8x57?
55mm its what a 57 mm long case will end when open to 9,3.

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
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yumastepside
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Re: a very nice look alike MS Carcano [Re: lancaster]
      #384568 - 29/04/24 05:34 PM

Yes, the 35 Carcano is my wildcat, it has slightly less capacity than the 358W. The 9.3X55 Imp. is my 6.5x55 Imp. blown out to 9.3.

Roger

--------------------
If you live for a thousand years, you still only have one life, don't waste it.


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Re: a very nice look alike MS Carcano [Re: yumastepside]
      #384586 - 30/04/24 05:38 AM

suspect the 9,3x55 is only 53 mm long in reality? the 6,5x55 open up to 8 mm gives the 8x54.
so this is another wildcat you can claim to be you own idea?

--------------------
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.
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yumastepside
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Re: a very nice look alike MS Carcano [Re: lancaster]
      #384590 - 30/04/24 09:01 AM

Probably not an original idea, I don't doubt that someone has done it before. I always wanted a switch barrel rifle, so I thought that a 6.5x55 and the 9.3x55 would be a good combination.

Roger

--------------------
If you live for a thousand years, you still only have one life, don't waste it.


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DarylS
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Re: a very nice look alike MS Carcano [Re: yumastepside]
      #384591 - 30/04/24 12:05 PM

Sounds good to me. Both would be/are excellent ctgs.
The 9.3 should do 2,200fps with 286gr. Norma Alaskan bullets, or whatever is available to you. Excellent Sambar rifle.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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lancaster
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Re: a very nice look alike MS Carcano [Re: DarylS]
      #384602 - 01/05/24 12:31 AM

https://www.waffengebraucht.at/waffen/re...agdlich--547374

6,5x52 sold very quickly for 80 euro











--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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