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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Mauser Discussion Forum
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Tentman
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Reged: 13/06/10
Posts: 128
Loc: Southland, New Zealand
Out of Proof Rifles
      #185668 - 12/07/11 06:45 AM

Hello Folks

In talking "mausers" with a dealer here recently he "allowed" that there are "quite a few Mauser sporters being offered at very modest prices in Germany because they have the front reciever ring dovetailed for a scope base, and that these rifles will no long be accepted for proof testing".

I am wondering if anyone else has heard this theory ??

Part two of this query is if this is a fact, it might be a good way of obtaining some reaonably priced parts for rifles I have, I need a rear sight (X2), a bolt and a stock at least. How would it go to buy such a rifle, have the stock, bolt, bottom metal etc and barrel (probably buggered?) removed to scrap the reciever ? Does anyone know a gunsmith or dealer in Germany who might undertake such work.

Thanks - Foster

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Southland, New Zealand

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500Nitro
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Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: Out of Proof Rifles [Re: Tentman]
      #185669 - 12/07/11 06:48 AM


Not sure what the legal side of it is except that any work done on a gun (receiver, barrel etc) in the UK requires re proof, just not sure what is entailed in the "work" for this to become fact.

Interesting thought.

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justcurious
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Reged: 17/03/10
Posts: 285
Loc: Germany
Re: Out of Proof Rifles [Re: Tentman]
      #185670 - 12/07/11 07:09 AM

Quote:

Hello Folks

... that there are "quite a few Mauser sporters being offered at very modest prices in Germany because they have the front reciever ring dovetailed for a scope base, and that these rifles will no long be accepted for proof testing".
Does anyone know a gunsmith or dealer in Germany who might undertake such work.

Thanks - Foster




#1 that rumor is bull...t . But I must admit that even here in Germany there are some folks who believe in that.

Truth is : if the receiver ring is slotted so deep that you can see the barrel thread (yes some backyard smith´s did so) it really will be rejected.

If it is slightly slotted proof houses will accept it.

Furthermore collectors like more the untouched actions.So the "slotted" are cheaper.


#2. There are a lot of smith´s who strip the rifles. But I think no one is willing to burden the paperwork for export.

The fees for paperwork and shipping amount will exceed the value of the parts.

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Huvius
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Reged: 04/11/07
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Re: Out of Proof Rifles [Re: justcurious]
      #185673 - 12/07/11 07:53 AM

I don't think I am mistaken, but weren't original Mauser sporters built by Mauser with the dovetail slot scope mount?
Pretty sure that is the case.
I can't imagine such a rifle being refused for proofing.

Why would a rifle need to be reproofed other than in the instance of a rechamber or rebarrel? Do some European countries require re-proof after a certain period of time or just when a gun is modified from its previously proofed form?

--------------------
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justcurious
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Re: Out of Proof Rifles [Re: Huvius]
      #185713 - 13/07/11 01:21 AM

Reproofing is only necessary when rechambering, reboring or barrel change was done.

Same procedure when action (-parts) are color case hardened or otherwise heat treated / rehardened.

Some claim that muzzle crowning , adding a brake magnaporting or shortening the barrel also needs reproof .

But that is ignored by most riflesmiths.

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chapmen
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Reged: 26/02/10
Posts: 234
Loc: Middle of germany
Re: Out of Proof Rifles [Re: justcurious]
      #186394 - 23/07/11 10:31 PM

Proofhouse in cologne accept no rifle with dovetail in the frontring for proofing, equal how deep it is done.

Proofhouse Ulm accept dovetails if they are not deeper than 3,8mm.

The proofhouse in Ferlach /Austria dont accept any mannlicher with dovetail in front ring, mausers only if the dovetail is not "to deep".

Especially in the early 1950s some very strange kind of dovetailings in front rings where made, i have seen barrel threads fully open.

So reproofing is for this kind of dovetail not possible, but there is no reason fro proofing if the rifle is ok.

otherwise- i would not shoot an system where the barrel threads are open.........

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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
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Re: Out of Proof Rifles [Re: chapmen]
      #186403 - 24/07/11 03:47 AM

I like the looks of them, but would probably not shoot a Mauser with dovetailed scope base in the front receiver ring. I am reminded of Ackley's experiments on action strength, not sure volume 1 or volume 2. The dovetailed action let go with a slighlty higher than standard pressure load that the other actions showed as normal pressure. I am dubious of those deep dovetails.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: Out of Proof Rifles [Re: DarylS]
      #186982 - 31/07/11 10:01 PM

I agree and avoid them like the plague.

Curl

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YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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Brithunter
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Reged: 17/03/10
Posts: 184
Loc: Lincolnshire, England
Re: Out of Proof Rifles [Re: 500Nitro]
      #192973 - 03/11/11 10:23 PM

Quote:


Not sure what the legal side of it is except that any work done on a gun (receiver, barrel etc) in the UK requires re proof, just not sure what is entailed in the "work" for this to become fact.

Interesting thought.



Ahhhh in the UK reproof is only required actually if structual strength is altered. The proof house says that even screw cutting the barrel fr a moderator requires a re-proof yet this is only to bring more work their way ad it not actually what the act says. They tried to do Gunshop of East Barnet over this and lost.

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9.3x57
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Re: Out of Proof Rifles [Re: Brithunter]
      #192980 - 03/11/11 11:47 PM

First, great topic.

They are seemingly quite common and like Daryl I've always considered them dubious. In addition, this is one of theose modifications that seems to be accepted by many collectors on the "If it's German, it must be done right" theory when if such a thing was done to a modern action by a modern gunsmith the gun would be accepted by everyone as only good for holding tomatoes up in the garden.

It is a hideous modification IMO and yet some of the books say it is fine, etc, etc, etc.

Thanks very much to the Germans here for their comment. VERY interesting. I always wondered what extent of this modification WOULD scratch proof.

Now, here is a question;

I recognise that each country has their own legal liability standards and such, but in nation's where there is a national proof house and law, who is liable for a gun that self destructs with normal pressure factory loads, the proof house or the gunmaker?

Does proof eliminate legal liability of the maker?

I'm one of those ones who in spite of the insanity of the American court system on many issues believes our system is right-on in not requiring proofing but am really curious about how the liability end of things works in nations where proofing is required.

Thanks.

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

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Huvius
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Re: Out of Proof Rifles [Re: 9.3x57]
      #192992 - 04/11/11 04:39 AM

My personal opinion is that the dovetailed front scope mount on a Mauser doesn't pose any particular safety problem.
Keep in mind that the bolt lug is in contact with only the rear vertical surface of the lug recess and a dovetail does not alter that relationship.
In order for there to be a failure radiating from the chamber, the entire barrel shank would have to fail. Short of a gross error in reloading (excess powder or wrong size bullet) or a barrel obstruction, that will not happen.

Now, having said that, I agree that the dovetail is not as attractive as a barrel mounted front scope mount.

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.

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9.3x57
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Reged: 22/04/07
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Re: Out of Proof Rifles [Re: Huvius]
      #193010 - 04/11/11 02:13 PM

Huvius;

My view is that if the steel wasn't there for a reason, it wouldn't be originally.

Also, Ackely seems to indicate his experiments showed that when the action let go, it did there, first.

Now maybe the dovetail could be seen to be a stress reliever of sorts, but I'm with you; It's fugly.

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

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500Nitro
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Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: Out of Proof Rifles [Re: 9.3x57]
      #193011 - 04/11/11 02:19 PM

Quote:


I'm one of those ones who in spite of the insanity of the American court system on many issues believes our system is right-on in not requiring proofing but am really curious about how the liability end of things works in nations where proofing is required.
Thanks.



But look at how the older us guns were made, they seemed to me to be a fair bit heavier and sturdier than say an English game gun. In other words, I haven't seen too many 6 lb US made game guns around as they made them thicker.

I may be wrong but from handling guns at gun shows and shops in the US, that was my feeling.

I think this may have changed a bit now though, some very nice US guns around.

.

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lancaster
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Reged: 06/05/08
Posts: 9038
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Re: Out of Proof Rifles [Re: 500Nitro]
      #193014 - 04/11/11 02:38 PM

I have talked with my old gunmaker once about such scope mount and he dont have seen any problem with cartridges in the 8x57 class. of course magnum cartridges are a different cup of tea.
I never see an dovetailed action break with factory pressure ammo. yes, sometimes they break when geting a new proof but you can destroy most guns and rifles when shoting them with proof ammo long enough.
imho, its one of the internet myth's that such rifles are usualy unsafe.

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