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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Building Double Rifles & Gunsmithing
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Ron_Vella
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Reged: 29/04/05
Posts: 432
Loc: Oshawa, Ontario, Canada
Double rifle project, calibre 9.3x74R
      #185191 - 04/07/11 12:15 PM

After a search of months, I finally found a BRNO Model ZP-47 in 16 gauge, as a host gun for my new double rifle build. The gun had been badly neglected, including a lot of pitting to most all of the steel surfaces. This has necessitated the wearing out of a lot of stones, emery paper, and a few finger tips. Here are a few shots of where I am with it.


I have re-finished the stocks, stained them English red, re-cut the checkering, and added a 1 1/2" Silvers-style pad. There are about 20 coats of TruOil on it now. It needs to hang for about another month to ensure that the oil is good and hard, then a final rub-out with linseed oil and pumice.


Here are the stubs of the barrels, fresh off the milling machine. The bores have been machined out to 0.780", then threaded 13/16-32 TPI.


Here is the new extractor plate and the new extractor rod, fitted into place and ready to be micro-TIG welded together, then faced off and stoned to final dimension.




Here are three shots of the action, from various angles, showing the result of about 30 hours of stoning and polishing.

More to come as this project goes along. Unfortunately, due to a blocked sewer, our basement flooded on Friday night. So the place is full of insurance adjusters, cleaners, and contractors, and my shop will be unuseable for a bit!

By the way, the 12 gauge BRNO ZP-49, that I built my .450 #2 NE on, is serial-numbered 40165, built in 1963. If you look at the photos above, you'll note that the serial number of this gun is 40166, built in 1959.What are the odds of buying two different guns, in two different gauges, from two different sources, about 10 years apart, and having them consecutively serial numbered? I wonder if I'll be entitled to call them a "true pair"?

Edited by CptCurl (04/07/11 03:46 PM)

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CHAPUISARMES
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Re: Double rifle project, calibre 9.3x74R [Re: Ron_Vella]
      #185192 - 04/07/11 12:29 PM

That is coming on nicely, good luck with it...

.

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AkMike
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Re: Double rifle project, calibre 9.3x74R [Re: CHAPUISARMES]
      #185215 - 04/07/11 04:55 PM

Once again this shows that you are indeed a craftsman! Wonderful.

I can come fairly close to your serial number situation. My 500/450 3 1/4" Hollis was built in 1906. Another gent here in town came up with another Hollis 500/450 3 1/4" only 3 numbers away. What's the odds that over 100 yrs later on they'd show up together again in the same rack at the range in this part of the world?

--------------------
"When you see that in order to produce, you need to obtain permission from men who produce nothing; when you see that money is flowing to those who deal not in goods, but in favors; you may know that your society is doomed." Ayn Rand

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kamilaroi
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Re: Double rifle project, calibre 9.3x74R [Re: AkMike]
      #185218 - 04/07/11 06:22 PM

Interesting inasmuch as I have 2 Westley Richards 1897 patent falling blocks numbered in the 3535x range. On the final digit a single number divides them.

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DarylS
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Re: Double rifle project, calibre 9.3x74R [Re: kamilaroi]
      #185241 - 05/07/11 12:54 AM

Nice work, Ron - as usual. I don't 'get' the larger sequential serial # being built 4 years before the smaller one.

The true oil should finish to a nice 'perfect' piano finish. A local gun maker showed me a similar technique - makes for an interesting 'piece'. I used a his method to duplicate the finished plastic appearing surface of a new Belgium Browning for a friend.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Ron_Vella
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Re: Double rifle project, calibre 9.3x74R [Re: DarylS]
      #185249 - 05/07/11 06:40 AM

Daryl,
I believe that they probably forged and machined a large number of receivers at one time, stamped them with serial numbers, then drew them from inventory as needed, in no special order, it would appear.

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Ron_Vella
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Re: Double rifle project, calibre 9.3x74R [Re: Ron_Vella]
      #185343 - 07/07/11 11:02 AM

Yesterday I went to the micro-welder and had him weld the extractor plate to the extractor rod. On the way home I stopped at my machinist friend's home and had him mill off the plate to within about 1 1/2 thou of complete. I also had him indicate on the bores to centre each of them and then bore through the plate for the cartridges, but 50 thou under-size.Today I spent a few hours smoking in, draw-filing, and stoning until the barrel assembly just closes snugly on the action. Here are a few pics:





Edited by CptCurl (07/07/11 08:05 PM)

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DarylS
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Re: Double rifle project, calibre 9.3x74R [Re: Ron_Vella]
      #185384 - 08/07/11 01:59 AM

Quote:

Daryl,
I believe that they probably forged and machined a large number of receivers at one time, stamped them with serial numbers, then drew them from inventory as needed, in no special order, it would appear.



Sounds as if that is the way of it - strange, though - to me.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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bwanabobftw
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Re: Double rifle project, calibre 9.3x74R [Re: DarylS]
      #185387 - 08/07/11 03:47 AM

Nice work.
Robert

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Ron_Vella
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Re: Double rifle project, calibre 9.3x74R [Re: bwanabobftw]
      #201242 - 31/01/12 01:49 PM

After months of waiting for them, I finally got my two barrels last week. Yesterday I was able to get back to work on this project. Here are a few photos of what I've done in these two days:



Here they are, a pair of McGowan, 26" barrels, in the Shilen #2 profile. Rate of twist is 1:12.


Here I'm turning the shank end to the OD of the front end of my monoblock.


Threading the barrel shank, in this case, 13/16"-32tpi.


Reaming one of the chambers. I read elsewhere of a formula for lubricant for this job, consisting of 50% Ford type F automatic transmission fluid, and 50 % SAE 10 motor oil. This is the first time that I've used it and it's great. After cutting both of these chambers, with only a finishing reamer, I slit my finger open on one of the flutes while wiping the reamer clean. That's still SHARP.


Here we are with the first barrel screwed up tight into the monoblock.


And here's the second.


Here are two dummy cartridges in the chambers. Barrels lock up with lever still well to left of centre, but things will wear in as we go along.

More to follow, with better photos from a better camera.

Edited by CptCurl (01/02/12 11:45 PM)

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Ron_Vella
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Reged: 29/04/05
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Re: Double rifle project, calibre 9.3x74R [Re: Ron_Vella]
      #201243 - 31/01/12 02:09 PM

I forgot to mention, while wandering the aisles of a gun show, about a month ago, I found a twin to this gun. It's another BRNO ZP-49, in 16 gauge as well, and in virtually pristine condition. When I'm finished this project, I'll have a pair, rifle and shotgun, in one fitted travel case.

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AkMike
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Re: Double rifle project, calibre 9.3x74R [Re: Ron_Vella]
      #201244 - 31/01/12 02:17 PM

The serial number wouldn't happen to fall in with the others would it?

--------------------
"When you see that in order to produce, you need to obtain permission from men who produce nothing; when you see that money is flowing to those who deal not in goods, but in favors; you may know that your society is doomed." Ayn Rand

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Ron_Vella
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Re: Double rifle project, calibre 9.3x74R [Re: AkMike]
      #201290 - 31/01/12 11:15 PM

No, it's nowhere near them , Mike. If it did, I'd be playing the lottery tonight!

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AkMike
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Re: Double rifle project, calibre 9.3x74R [Re: Ron_Vella]
      #201310 - 01/02/12 05:52 AM

That's exactly what I was going to suggest Ron!

--------------------
"When you see that in order to produce, you need to obtain permission from men who produce nothing; when you see that money is flowing to those who deal not in goods, but in favors; you may know that your society is doomed." Ayn Rand

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500Nitro
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Re: Double rifle project, calibre 9.3x74R [Re: AkMike]
      #201314 - 01/02/12 07:28 AM

Quote:

The serial number wouldn't happen to fall in with the others would it?




I had that happen with a Holland Shotgun once, was on the phone to, as it happens a firearms dealer over here in Aus. Found out in general conversation he collected English guns, we discussed what we had.

his ears pricked up at the mention of a Holland, I said it was No 1 or 2 of a pair, he asked what the serial number was and hey presto, I had the other.

His next words were "and the price just went up $5000" to which I replied, "No, $10,000".

He was a happy chap.
.

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DarylS
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Re: Double rifle project, calibre 9.3x74R [Re: 500Nitro]
      #201385 - 02/02/12 01:35 AM

Ron - why such a fast thread. My guess is strong but less material removal, tighter fit in the threads themselves with less actual gap measurement in individual threads?

That makes sense. Nice work, btw. I've just used rapid tap for threading, worked fine for me, by hand or on the lathe.

Will have to try the tranny fluid and motor oil, though, cheaper.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Ron_Vella
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Re: Double rifle project, calibre 9.3x74R [Re: DarylS]
      #201429 - 02/02/12 08:43 AM

Daryl,
I like 32tpi because it involves removal of less wetal from the monoblock, ie: major thread daiameter minus minor thread diameter.

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Ron_Vella
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Re: Double rifle project, calibre 9.3x74R [Re: Ron_Vella]
      #201463 - 02/02/12 01:32 PM

I spent quite a bit of time today, draw-filing and then stoning the monoblock/barrel juncture in order to continue the taper of the monoblock in a smooth flow into the barrels and to hide the seam between the two. As you'll see in the photo below, that seam is almost invisible, and after final polishing and rust bluing, will be impossible to see unless held just so in bright sunlight.


Edited by CptCurl (10/02/12 11:28 PM)

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DBLGN
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Re: Double rifle project, calibre 9.3x74R [Re: Ron_Vella]
      #202094 - 10/02/12 04:29 AM

Nice work Ron. Always fun to watch someone else's work progress. I recently built a .450-3 1/4 on one of these BRNO 12 bore actions - I was very impressed with them. I am sure this has been mentioned other places, but they have chopper lump barrels which I really like. The one I used for the above gun, had ejectors and interrupting sears, as well.

Ellis

--------------------
DBLGN

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Ron_Vella
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Re: Double rifle project, calibre 9.3x74R [Re: DBLGN]
      #202109 - 10/02/12 10:36 AM

I built a .450 #2 NE on a BRNO ZP-49 a few years ago. There are at least 1000 full-house loads through it and it is still as tight and on-the-face as the day that I finished it.

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Ron_Vella
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Reged: 29/04/05
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Re: Double rifle project, calibre 9.3x74R [Re: Ron_Vella]
      #203393 - 23/02/12 12:57 PM

Hopefully what I'm about to explain may be of value to a few other builders. A couple of weeks ago I was at the point where I was ready to solder these barrels into the mono-block. Before I did, I decided to put all of the components, including scope and rings, on an accurate scale, to determine aproximately what the finished rifle was going to weigh. I was astounded to find that it was going to be just a couple of ounces shy of 11 pounds, a fine weight for a .45 calibre dangerous game rifle, but far too heavy for a 9.3 x 74R. There are a number of areas where I'm going to shave some weight, but the most obvious was the barrels. When I set them up in my lathe, between centres, there was far too much chatter to get a good finish.

I took the barrels to a local precision grinding company and asked them to remove .025" from the radius for a total reduction in diameter of .050". They set the barrels between centres and ground .001" per pass under a heavy flow of coolant along the entire straight taper of the barrels. They were even able to blend the rear end of the grind very nicely into the radius at the front end of the breech reinforce. The total charge for this service was $80.00, which I think is extremely reasonable.

The best news is that this grind resulted in a weight reduction of 10 1/4 ounces for the two barrels. That's a big reduction in just one component. Something to bear in mind if you have a similar problem. And by the way, the resultant finish is like a mirror, and the finished diameter of the two muzzles doesn't differ by .0001"!

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AkMike
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Re: Double rifle project, calibre 9.3x74R [Re: Ron_Vella]
      #203404 - 23/02/12 03:52 PM

That's quite a weight savings with only a .050 reduction.

What's the barrel thickness at the muzzle now?

--------------------
"When you see that in order to produce, you need to obtain permission from men who produce nothing; when you see that money is flowing to those who deal not in goods, but in favors; you may know that your society is doomed." Ayn Rand

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Ron_Vella
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Reged: 29/04/05
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Re: Double rifle project, calibre 9.3x74R [Re: AkMike]
      #203488 - 24/02/12 05:16 AM

Mike,
The OD at the muzzles is now 0.526" and the wall thickness, in the centre of the grooves, is now 0.081", plenty thick enough for the pressure out at that end. One thing that I learned years ago from Tony "Marrakai" is to keep the muzzles light and the weight at the rear of the barrels, if you want to end up with that lovely "between-the-hands" feel of the classic British double rifles. If you don't do this, you end up with a muzzle-heavy rifle that swings like a sledgehammer.

Best,
Ron.

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DarylS
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Re: Double rifle project, calibre 9.3x74R [Re: Ron_Vella]
      #203504 - 24/02/12 06:19 AM

Thanks Ron - quite a trip and learning experience for me. I truely appreciate this open 'tutorial' style of thread.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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AkMike
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Reged: 19/11/05
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Re: Double rifle project, calibre 9.3x74R [Re: DarylS]
      #203506 - 24/02/12 06:32 AM

Just for a FYI if you're interested...
My 9.3X74 Chapuis measures .520

My Orgris (Ferlach)9.3X72 is .480 But this has a .363 bore.
Another one is .510 with the same 363 bore.


You're right in the ball park!

--------------------
"When you see that in order to produce, you need to obtain permission from men who produce nothing; when you see that money is flowing to those who deal not in goods, but in favors; you may know that your society is doomed." Ayn Rand

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