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Hunting >> Hunting in Australia, NZ & the South Pacific

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mikeh416Rigby
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Reged: 24/02/03
Posts: 6051
Loc: The beautiful Oley Valley, PA....

Re: Unethical or cruel? [Re: NitroX]
#184879 - 30/06/11 08:20 AM

Neither unethical or cruel. It just is what it is...part of life...part of death. It's been going on since day one.

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450_Ackley
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Reged: 06/02/03
Posts: 583
Loc: Darling Downs, Qld Australia

Re: Unethical or cruel? [Re: gryphon]
#184880 - 30/06/11 08:23 AM

After reading all the replies I don't think anyone so far has a problem with the "collateral damage" as you put it, we all accept that.
I think the big issue here is whether the photos needed to be posted on the PUBLIC part of this forum or on Facebook.

I've shot my fair share of 'roos years ago (under permit) and you always got a few joey's in pouches, had to happen, usually the nearest bullbar or tree sorted that out.
I don't see that as being cruel (infact the opposite really) and in long grass, no-one can tell if a doe has a joey in the pouch or not.

As someone put it to me yesterday, it's like giving someone a stick so they can then flog you with it.

David.

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PHMadness
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Reged: 26/05/11
Posts: 65
Loc: Seattle, WA

Re: Unethical or cruel? [Re: xausa]
#184882 - 30/06/11 08:25 AM

I saw these on Facebook today. I am of the opinion most people are just silly. The anti gunners, anti hunters and such all seem to have forgotten how we fed ourselves for the last 50,000 years until the last century. We killed and ate things. There weren't prescribed seasons, only need for food.
Sure, the world is more "civilized" now, but at maybe greater cost to our survival. I take great pride in putting meat in the freezer to feed my family. Sometimes it's messy, but I'm ok with that.

I can also see the point some have made about exposing the non hunters and greenies as y'all call them to the more graphic images. It will incite some, but I personally see no reason to hide it.

Quote:

"I can't be the only one to notice that, in general, the anti hunters who patently exclaim hunting (and a situation such as this in particular) is both cruel and unethical are the very same whom celebrate a woman's freedom to kill her own unborn child?"

Can I get a freakin' amen? +1

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Empire375
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Reged: 18/08/09
Posts: 239
Loc: Victoria, Australia

Re: Unethical or cruel? [Re: PHMadness]
#184883 - 30/06/11 08:32 AM

Wow

" it's like giving someone a stick so they can then flog you with it"

I tried to say exactly that in my posts on this topic!! THAT is spot on.

Publication is the issue. Not the practice

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500Nitro
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Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia

Re: Unethical or cruel? [Re: Empire375]
#184886 - 30/06/11 08:58 AM

Quote:

Wow

"it's like giving someone a stick so they can then flog you with it"

I tried to say exactly that in my posts on this topic!! THAT is spot on.

Publication is the issue. Not the practice

Well said Empire.

We have enough Gov't Dept's and Anti's having a go at us without giving them the ammo.

I know it goes on, we all know it goes on, just no need to highlight it.

And no I am not being soft, just realistic.

The argument for / against hunting or hunter / gatherer lifestyle will not be made on the basis of FACTS but o the basis of emotion.

ie Look at how they stopped the baby seals being killed.
PUBLIC Emotion.

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Empire375
.300 member

Reged: 18/08/09
Posts: 239
Loc: Victoria, Australia

Re: Unethical or cruel? [Re: 500Nitro]
#184887 - 30/06/11 09:15 AM

I stole the quote from 450 Ackley. I don't know how to use the quote function!! Hence sadly I cannot take credit for that one.

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450_Ackley
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Reged: 06/02/03
Posts: 583
Loc: Darling Downs, Qld Australia

Re: Unethical or cruel? [Re: Empire375]
#184898 - 30/06/11 11:07 AM

Neither can I, heard it from a wise Gentleman yesterday, but it stuck in my mind.

DC

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NitroX
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Reged: 25/12/02
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Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...

Re: Unethical or cruel? [Re: 450_Ackley]
#184912 - 30/06/11 04:45 PM

Again I don't find the photo "shocking" at all. I find comments like that strange.

Maybe also I am less worried about upset people than others. Show it as it is and be upfront. If people, including even hunters, after explanation, find it shocking, then perhaps we need more, not less of natural history type displays.

Some hunters no doubt find the sight of blood on an animal distateful and shocking. Some forums, magazines, ban photos like that. I believe the SCI Show in the USA also bans that sort of thing. Funny that, is my opinion.

As the facebook page, surprisingly haven't got as many anti comments as expected, but some whom claim to be hunters, claiming they will "unfriend" the NE page as a result. Well boo hoo, I think a bit of purging of the ranks does an organisation or entity some good from time to time.

As for antis using it against us, ... big bloody deal. They already use anything against us. Perhaps if people understood where meat comes from, in full detail, they wouldn't be so shocked about stupid mundane things.

I asked for peoples comments, so have no problem with people expressing them.

I posted lots of photos of an elephant being butchered once, wonder if people felt similarly about that.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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kamilaroi
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Reged: 18/12/04
Posts: 1803
Loc: sydney, new south wales, Austr...

Re: Unethical or cruel? [Re: NitroX]
#184914 - 30/06/11 05:19 PM

Quote:

So now only scientific publications should be allowed to publish photos of a natural history basis?

How limiting and restrictive.

Stupidiity is limiting ourselves and being too frightened to learn, and to display legitimate items of interest to others.

Certainly not. As I interpret the matter the other site's posts tend toward boasting rather than "part of the lifecycle".

"Playing the game" as Roberto would have it we have to display a greater "ethical" (media smart) approach without entering into a quasi philosophical debate with the "others". FWIW I have no qualms BUT I am thinking of the long term impact(s) among those less informed.

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450_Ackley
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Reged: 06/02/03
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Loc: Darling Downs, Qld Australia

Re: Unethical or cruel? [Re: kamilaroi]
#184922 - 30/06/11 07:33 PM

Very well said Rick.

Regards,
David.

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kamilaroi
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Re: Unethical or cruel? [Re: 450_Ackley]
#184926 - 30/06/11 07:40 PM

Ta mate.

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FATBOY404
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Reged: 14/11/09
Posts: 1730
Loc: QLD

Re: Unethical or cruel? [Re: 450_Ackley]
#184927 - 30/06/11 07:45 PM

Kamilaroi.
I'm on your team on this one.

I have seen things that would make a lot of peoples stomach turn and if you hunt enough animals something will go wrong for sure but I don't think the general public should see it.

I have muelsed thousands of sheep and know the benefits of this practice but as soon as the general public saw it all hell broke loose.

Nature is more cruel than humans at times and we have seen the response of viewers to drought effected stock and so on.

--------------------
"WHATEVER BLOWS YOUR HAIR BACK"

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Mike_Bailey
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Reged: 26/02/07
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Loc: GB

Re: Unethical or cruel? [Re: FATBOY404]
#184932 - 30/06/11 08:16 PM

Fatboy, what is "muelsed" ?
best

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FATBOY404
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Reged: 14/11/09
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Re: Unethical or cruel? [Re: Mike_Bailey]
#184933 - 30/06/11 08:33 PM

Removing skin around a lambs bum when you remove the tail so that it doesn't grow wool.I will admit it looks a bit cruel but not as bad as dieing from maggots eating you alive.

As the sheep has a clean bum no urine or crap sticks in the wool to attract flies.

--------------------
"WHATEVER BLOWS YOUR HAIR BACK"

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Mike_Bailey
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Re: Unethical or cruel? [Re: FATBOY404]
#184934 - 30/06/11 09:05 PM

Learn something new everyday !! best

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Woodlea
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Reged: 27/07/08
Posts: 14
Loc: NSW Australia

Re: Unethical or cruel? [Re: Mike_Bailey]
#184937 - 30/06/11 10:21 PM

If you shoot a female which is not pregnant, it will likely have a young fawn who will not survive without its mother. A developed foetus is the most reliable sight that it did not have a dependent fawn.

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JabaliHunter
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Reged: 16/05/07
Posts: 1958
Loc: England

Re: Unethical or cruel? [Re: Woodlea]
#184950 - 01/07/11 01:56 AM

Maybe, although it depends on how long the calf/fawn is dependent. But you can limit the season so that any foetus is far less developed than the one shown; except for animals like elephants with a very long gestation.

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NitroX
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Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 39310
Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...

Re: Unethical or cruel? [Re: kamilaroi]
#185011 - 02/07/11 01:04 AM

Quote:

... among those less informed.

Maybe we need to make people "more informed".

There is nothing actually shocking about that photo. Only some people's reaction.

The photo was originally included in the "Trip to Victoria" thread, merely because it was interesting.

People keep trying to put a different slant to it, with words such as "shocking", "boasting" etc, which must be coming from within their own heads.

This new thread with the photo was started to see what was going on in peoples thoughts on NE.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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NitroX
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Re: Unethical or cruel? [Re: JabaliHunter]
#185012 - 02/07/11 01:11 AM

Quote:

Maybe, although it depends on how long the calf/fawn is dependent. But you can limit the season so that any foetus is far less developed than the one shown; except for animals like elephants with a very long gestation.

Not wanting to be rude, but do people read what is written?

This is about the third time this has been re-posted.

Quote:

Giving consideration to the fact sambar do not have a definite breeding season. A hind may be pregnant any time of the year. A stag may have hard antlers any time of the year.

So it is not the same as a limited viewpoint of say hunting red hinds during an "off season"?

Should sambar hinds never be killed?

So maybe this thread is truly educational after all.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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tophet1
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Reged: 15/09/07
Posts: 1873
Loc: NSW, Australia

Re: Unethical or cruel? [Re: NitroX]
#185032 - 02/07/11 08:14 AM

Posting that photo is a good way to get a reaction from people but it's really just tasteless.

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Dr_Deer
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Reged: 23/02/09
Posts: 212
Loc: Australia

Re: Unethical or cruel? [Re: tophet1]
#185048 - 02/07/11 12:04 PM

Well it'd be more educational if you ran a tape measure down the calfs back and estimated age & therefore date of conception

From a taxonomic perspective it's also of interest that sambar calves are born with spots down the spine that can be seen on the feotus from a certain age.

Really it presence is just a fact of life with shooting sambar hinds, the calf died when the mothers blood stopped circulating so it cannot be compared with a joey in a pouch that is dependent upon a hit to the head for a quick death.

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gryphon
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Reged: 01/01/03
Posts: 5487
Loc: Sambar ground/Victoria/Austral...

Re: Unethical or cruel? [Re: Dr_Deer]
#185049 - 02/07/11 12:35 PM

Too add further a mate was having a few probs with deer at his property I went up this morning to lend a hand,it just happened that I had my 308NM with me for its first blood.
I was honked in thick cover last night without getting a crack thus todays change of hunt plans.

I saw the hind and a companion in the early morn and let rip a 180gr Norma load,it punched into the point of the left shoulder as she faced my way,continued through the heart and sliced the liver open also,luckily it didnt open the paunch.
Anyway after the shot I walked back and got the mate and he jumped onto his vineyard beast and dragged her back.She`s hanging in my shed now wholus bolus.This hind had a calf also,only as big as a buck ferret though and it was a stag calf too and the antler buds were readily delineated. I didn't bother with any pics.
As can be seen there was a fair frost on the slope and it was crunchy underfoot,this was taken over an hour after the shot by the time I walked back and we got the beast going.

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450_Ackley
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Reged: 06/02/03
Posts: 583
Loc: Darling Downs, Qld Australia

Re: Unethical or cruel? [Re: Dr_Deer]
#185050 - 02/07/11 12:42 PM

You've missed my point entirely, had neither mother been shot, neither foetus/joey would have died or needed a pat on the head.
Big deal, everyone's going to shoot a pregnant female at some stage, I think we can all agree on that here.

The main point here is not whether "we" need educating or re-educating about such matters, or whether "we" all need a teaspoon of cement or not.

The fact of the matter is that these photos are in poor taste and need not have been posted publically, in anything other than a scientific or research based forum.

Regards,
David.

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PHMadness
.275 member

Reged: 26/05/11
Posts: 65
Loc: Seattle, WA

Re: Unethical or cruel? [Re: 450_Ackley]
#185051 - 02/07/11 01:03 PM

Quote:

The fact of the matter is that these photos are in poor taste and need not have been posted publically, in anything other than a scientific or research based forum.

Sorry I am a noob here without much street cred, but I just have to ask.
How is taste a fact? I always figured it was a personal judgement.

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Ben
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Reged: 22/08/08
Posts: 1917
Loc: Northern Territory, Australia

Re: Unethical or cruel? [Re: PHMadness]
#185055 - 02/07/11 02:37 PM

Gryphon, well-done!

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