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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Double Rifles

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CHAPUISARMES
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Sabatti Double Rifles, Brickbats & Bouquets
      #183746 - 15/06/11 02:14 PM



There are many stories of how the Sabatti Double Rifle shoots or other problems associated with them on the Internet.

Hence, would forum members please post their own personal experiences who either own or have owned a Sabatti Double Rifle and provide a list of the problems that they had or if all was 110% let the rest of us know how happy your are or were with your purchase.

Cheers,

Jeff Gray

.


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Sabatti Double Rifles, Brickbats & Bouquets [Re: CHAPUISARMES]
      #183778 - 15/06/11 07:58 PM

Good thread. Guys please post if you have one, pro or con. Spread the word of this thread too, so owners elsewhere know about it and join in.

Sabattis are cheapish and it would be great if they deliver the goods or if not start to do so consistently.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
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aromakr
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Re: Sabatti Double Rifles, Brickbats & Bouquets [Re: NitroX]
      #183816 - 16/06/11 04:09 AM

As said in a previous thread, I own one. My final tuning target shows one shot 2 1/2" high 1/2" left of center and one shot 1 1/2" high and 2" left of center. No indication of which is the left or right barrel. with factory Hornady ammunition 286 gr bullets. The best I have been able to do at 50 yards with that same ammunition is right barrel 1 1/2" left of center and the left barrel 1" right of center. The left barrel prints 2" higher than the right. That is with 2 rounds from each barrel. Other than that problem, the rifle is well made, the metal fit is good and the wood to metal fit is good.
Its a bit on the light side, so I added about a pound of shot to the through stock bolt hole, which brought it up to 8 1/2#. Like others have said this about the extent of my finances and I would love to handload for it, as factory ammo is $90.00 a box plus shipping. I'm going to try come cast gas check bullets and see what happens. My bore mic's .369 a little oversize. I have had a mould made and just waiting on RCBS to made a oversize lubesizer die. for me.Bob


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jcs271
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Re: Sabatti Double Rifles, Brickbats & Bouquets [Re: aromakr]
      #183822 - 16/06/11 06:44 AM

I have had my .450NE for about a year now and shot about 200rds of Hornady factory through it. I quickly replaced the hard rubber red pad for a limbsaver pad and that was it. I LOVE this rifle. It fit my budget, shoots well and fit/finish is all spot on. There is a lot of internet whining but MINE works great as does my buddies 45-70. I would do it again!

--------------------
"carrying a fine rifle in good country makes a man feel like a King."


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Alberta
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Re: Sabatti Double Rifles, Brickbats & Bouquets [Re: jcs271]
      #183830 - 16/06/11 07:35 AM

I have a 7x65R with about 500 rounds through it.

Action is still tight, opening lever has "worn in" to sitting center and has gone no further.

The only little problem I had was the opening lever would only swing to about center when the bbls were off then stop. This meant that as the gun wore in to center I could not be sure the lugs were being engaged all the way, it felt like there was something holding the lever/lugs from traveling fully forwards. I did not like this so I took the action apart and found that there was a bit of metal on the lever stop I needed to remove to get the lugs to have their full travel. I did this and now the lever will travel to the left when the bbls are removed, meaning I can count on the lugs for full engagement. Sounds bad but really it was just a little fitting that needed to be done with a file. The inside of the action and all the parts were very nicely machined, much much better than I expected.

Mine also has the bbls ground at the muzzle but will still manage a decent group with hand loads. I have never tried the factory regulated ammo in it.


I bought it to be a "user" and it is.
[image][/image]


Results of one Right and one Left.

[image][/image]




Edited by Alberta (16/06/11 07:39 AM)


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CHAPUISARMES
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Re: Sabatti Double Rifles, Brickbats & Bouquets [Re: Alberta]
      #183849 - 16/06/11 02:29 PM

I was sent this as an Email from Doubleriflejack as he had problems.:

Initially, I bought a Sabatti .500 NE, even though I heard rumors that the Sabatti doubles had regulation problems with some examples. Considering the price on them, and what I considered to be good quality, I thought that even if it wasn't regulated well, that I would regulate it myself, having been through gunsmithing class from W. Ellis Brown, converting double shotguns to double rifles prior to his writing book on same subject (now in 2nd edition), and having made several such conversions, I felt confident that I could use whatever was necessary, time wise, to re-regulate it well, and I thought that I could deal with any and all other potential problems that I may find. Well, as it turned out, my .500 shot well enough, certainly, on a horizontal plain poi. about one to two inches apart at 50 yards. However, for a .500, rifle was too light in overall weight, so I milled out a small area within the forend wood, and epoxied it in with lead, and I added a mercury recoil reducer, and now the weight, for caliber, is much better. I cut stock to my length (for most shooters, Sabatti as well as numerous other modern double rifles are made longer than necessary, allowing for cutting to fit shooter). I added a much better recoil pad, one that slides on/off in an upward/downward motion, for easy access to the internal butt stock throughbolt. I love this type recoil pad, because it is especially great for guns with stock throughbolts, as they enable one to quickly slide pad on/off. They are available from New England Custom Guns in NH. Too, I added a steel grip cap, making for a much nicer look. I gold plated the triggers and all internal parts, except the mainsprings, for corrosion protection, and did some other internal work on the actions, and a few other things, learning a few things in the process: These actions have only one coil spring, the top lever spring, while all other springs are of the traditional V type, including the mainsprings and ejector springs, all made extremely well, and of the finest spring steel. That speaks well of them, for I consider the V to be superior to the coil springs for such use, when so many modern double rifles are moving toward using more coil springs. Internal fit and finish of all parts is extremely good, about as good as any double rifle made anywhere, in my opinion, and I work on numerous German and classic British double rifles all the time, as comparison. I have been especially impressed by the high quality hard/tough ALLOY STEEL used in the actions. Based on this, I would say that the Italians know their steels. The Sabatti factory told me that the actions are machined from a solid block of a tri-alloy, heat treated high strength steel. I found it to be very tough, with a hard surface, and plated with some sort of process, making it extremely resistant to corrosion. Now, the actions are also DESIGNED extremely well for a double rile action, much better than most any shotgun action for conversion to double rifle, being especially thick on side walls and on all sides of the Purdey underbolt cutout, with quite large over-sized underbolt too, of finest steel. Some of these Sabatti rifles have been chambered for the .416 Rigby cartridge, a rimless round, designed for bolt rifles, rather than double rifles, and a cartridge that gives a bit more breech pressure than most double rifle cartridges up through the .500 NE, and they hold up to those pressures, so I am sure that these actions will hold up to normal use from all normal rimmed "double rifle" cartridges, up through the .500 NE. The action "engraving" is done by machine, I am sure, but is beyond doubt the finest machine made engraving I have seen on any and all guns. This "engraving" is very well done, and deep enough to last forever; I like it. I LIKED MY .500 SO MUCH, THAT I DECIDED TO BUY ANOTHER, THIS TIME IN .470, and I found one with an especially nice figured butt stock, among the nicest grain figure I had seen on Sabatti rifles, and I have tried to see all of them that have been offered by Cabelas to date. I gave my .470 the same treatment mentioned above, as my .500, but also added a steel TRAP grip cap, so the little cover could be opened to reveal spare firing pins I made for rifle. My .470 shoots as well as it looks, better than the .500, and even better than several classic English double rifles I own. I like it, and I am planning to get yet another Sabatti, probably a .450/.400 or a straight .450.

NOW FOR THE UGLY PART OF THESE SABATTI RIFLES:

After doing all of the aforementioned, I learned that some Sabatt rifles have been "fine tune regulated" by grinding tops off some of the rifling lands near muzzle crowns, allowing exiting bullets to be "steered" one way or the other by the escaping gas. When I learned this, I raced to my Sabatti rifles, for examination to see if mine had this abomination treatment done to them, and was relieved to see that they did not receive such abuse. However, some buyers have found, and I have seen pictures of this, the aforementioned treatment, done in an effort to "fine tune regulate" them. I take a dim view of such practices, only a short cut done to avoid proper regualtion. When I do buy another Sabatti, and I would suggest every potential buyer do the same, I intend to do so only after I personally examine it, to be sure that the muzzle crowns have not been ground, abused, in this way. I have found no other problems with Sabatti double rifles, and have found a lot of positive things about them. I would not hesitate to buy another, but, of course, I am not an average buyer, since I have no fear of re-regulating, working on, upgrading a rifle, etc., and if a buyer lacks these abilities, they are in a different boat than I, so they may not want to buy one. I would say that it would be best to carefully examine a potential rifle you are considering, including how well it shoots. What I have said applies only to the deluxe big bore version; not to the smaller less expensive model in .45-70 and 9.3x74R, as I have not examined any of these cheaper models. I do have various other makes of classic old double rifles in the 9.3x74R chambering; I do love that caliber; no wonder it is so popular and well liked in Europe!


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Sabatti Double Rifles, Brickbats & Bouquets [Re: CHAPUISARMES]
      #183876 - 16/06/11 06:18 PM

Quote:

... I learned that some Sabatt rifles have been "fine tune regulated" by grinding tops off some of the rifling lands near muzzle crowns, allowing exiting bullets to be "steered" one way or the other by the escaping gas. When I learned this, I raced to my Sabatti rifles, for examination to see if mine had this abomination treatment done to them, and was relieved to see that they did not receive such abuse. However, some buyers have found, and I have seen pictures of this, the aforementioned treatment, done in an effort to "fine tune regulate" them.




It would be great if we could get some of the muzzle photos posted.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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500Nitro
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Re: Sabatti Double Rifles, Brickbats & Bouquets [Re: NitroX]
      #183878 - 16/06/11 06:30 PM

Quote:


It would be great if we could get some of the muzzle photos posted.




It's been organised. They will be posted shortly by Chapuis.


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CHAPUISARMES
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Re: Sabatti Double Rifles, Brickbats & Bouquets [Re: 500Nitro]
      #183884 - 16/06/11 07:00 PM

WITHOUT PREJUDICE

These photos were taken by a gunsmith who own a rifle manufacturing business and was asked to perform some tests to find out why this rifle (.450/400) was not shooting as per the "Target" The report from this group of gunsmiths with access to a very broad range of test equipment showed various concerns and I am going to report this in due course but the following has been confirmed without question in the States. I guess Australia has the same problems but is not being admitted to.
In the States.:
1. Cabella is aware of the problems with regulation (Or lack thereof by many owners of the Sabatti)
2. They are aware of the way that Sabatti regulates their 'trouble' Double Rifles (If necessary)
3. Cabella is offering a repair by way of re regulation by Sabatti in Italy, replacement or your money back.
4. Sabatti in Italy is aware of these problems as it has been advised by Cabella's numerous times.



Oval crown.



Missing Rifling

In the report to follow, the rifle shot in a 'Huntable' manner with Hornady Soft & Solids but not with any other load and this was not the load the rifle was regulated for.

More to follow.:



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FATBOY404
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Re: Sabatti Double Rifles, Brickbats & Bouquets [Re: CHAPUISARMES]
      #183887 - 16/06/11 07:11 PM

Yuk, that is terrible Jeff !!.

That would just "eat at me" I'm sorry.

--------------------
"WHATEVER BLOWS YOUR HAIR BACK"


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CHAPUISARMES
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Re: Sabatti Double Rifles, Brickbats & Bouquets [Re: FATBOY404]
      #183891 - 16/06/11 07:42 PM

Hi Neale,

I agree, that's why I am delving into it more. We seem to be isolated here in Australia (Good & Bad) but we do not get to hear the 'Worldly' stories.

The general feeling of the owners that either I have spoken to or read their stories is that the finish is good to most standards right up to the 'Regulation' and that's when it all falls apart.

The most important thing for us in Australia is to remember that this is not a 'One Off' case and that ALL these people do not know each other but have the same type of concerns and I must say "COULD NOT" all do the same Bastardisation. Only the factory could have done it in some type of misunderstanding of how it should be done.

More to come.:

Cheers Mate,

Jeff

.


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450_Ackley
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Re: Sabatti Double Rifles, Brickbats & Bouquets [Re: CHAPUISARMES]
      #183894 - 16/06/11 07:52 PM

I'm having trouble just getting over the amount of copper in those barrels, that'll take days just to get it clean, let alone get it to shoot.

DC

Posts relating to cleaning copper from the barrels transferred to this thread and deleted:

http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=184061&an=&page=0&vc=1


Edited by NitroX (18/06/11 09:11 PM)


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500Nitro
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Re: Sabatti Double Rifles, Brickbats & Bouquets [Re: CHAPUISARMES]
      #183895 - 16/06/11 08:03 PM

Quote:

Hi Neale,

I agree, that's why I am delving into it more. We seem to be isolated here in Australia (Good & Bad) but we do not get to hear the 'Worldly' stories.
More to come.:
Cheers Mate,

Jeff
.




Sorry Jeff, I disagree with you there. We might not hear it "in the gun shop" but it has been widely discussed for over 2 years by myself and others, including some from Australia and I tried a number of times to post the info and have done on another Australian forum - or at least a warning as in buyer beware.

.

.


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500Nitro
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Re: Sabatti Double Rifles, Brickbats & Bouquets *DELETED* [Re: 450_Ackley]
      #183896 - 16/06/11 08:05 PM

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FATBOY404
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Re: Sabatti Double Rifles, Brickbats & Bouquets *DELETED* [Re: 500Nitro]
      #183899 - 16/06/11 08:56 PM

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"WHATEVER BLOWS YOUR HAIR BACK"


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450_Ackley
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Re: Sabatti Double Rifles, Brickbats & Bouquets *DELETED* [Re: FATBOY404]
      #183900 - 16/06/11 09:18 PM

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FATBOY404
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Re: Sabatti Double Rifles, Brickbats & Bouquets *DELETED* [Re: 450_Ackley]
      #183903 - 16/06/11 09:25 PM

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"WHATEVER BLOWS YOUR HAIR BACK"


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FATBOY404
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Re: Sabatti Double Rifles, Brickbats & Bouquets *DELETED* [Re: FATBOY404]
      #183906 - 16/06/11 09:33 PM

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Ron_Vella
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Re: Sabatti Double Rifles, Brickbats & Bouquets [Re: FATBOY404]
      #183916 - 16/06/11 11:32 PM

Congratulations to "Doubleriflejack" on a logical, insightful appraisal of these rifles, based on a good knowledge of the subject and on hands-on experience. Since the very first introduction of the Sabatti doubles to North America, there have been several individuals who have bad-mouthed them, without ever having seen, handled, or shot one, based solely on their personal opinions that it is impossible to build a double rifle of acceptable quality at this price point. Of course, since the lamentable "muzzle-grinding" on some Sabattis has come to light, these same individuals have crowed long and loud about how it justifies their original assessments, and how prescient they were.

Frankly, a few individuals have made it virtually impossible to hold a RATIONAL discussion of these guns. YES, there are some serious problems with SOME Sabattis, and I hope that the company will step up to the plate and ensure that they no longer use that method of regulation. Some of you here know me and know that I have a modicum of knowledge of the subject of double rifles. I examined 5 of them in considerable detail in May 2010 in Toronto. My assessment of those 5 exactly corresponds with Jack's. A friend of mine purchased one of the Model 92's in calibre 7x65R, based on my recommendation. It shoots well and he is pleased with it. He also owns, H&H's, Westley's, Chapuis's, etc., so is not easilly impressed.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that if you buy a Sabatti with both eyes open, you can get yourself a great deal on a well-made double rifle.

Best,
Ron Vella.


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doubleriflejack
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Re: Sabatti Double Rifles, Brickbats & Bouquets [Re: Ron_Vella]
      #183958 - 17/06/11 06:20 AM

Chapuisarmes and Ron Villa,

Chapuisarmes, I agree 100% with what you had to say, Cabelas and Sabatti are, indeed, aware of the customer dissatisfaction with the "fine tune regulation" muzzle crown rifling grinding process, as for one, I personally told Cabelas main office in Nebraska, and told Sabatti too. I know others too, who have done the same thing. Also, I told them that if the "problem" was not corrected with future rifles, that I predicted that they would be losing a considerable number of potential customer purchases. If Cabelas and Sabatti wish to be successful in this venture, they know what they will have to do for future increased sales, and I am hoping that they do it. I am aware that Cabelas has indicated a willingness to have repairs done by Sabatti in Italy, but am suspicious of this, as I think that some of these so-called repairs have been done, instead, by EAA, the U.S. Sabatti importer in Florida, supplier for Cabelas, an importer that I personally know has one or more "gunsmiths" working on their staff, and an importer that has a horrible reputation for their uncaring support, etc. If this is the case, EAA is doing nothing but harming the reputation of the builders, Sabatti; not giving Sabatti a fair chance to correct the problem that they started, due to manufacturing shortcuts. I am aware of only two Sabatti big bore double rifles that were sent back for repairs so far, and neither of these two were repaired well, properly, according to the rifle owners. The original barrels were simply cut back to eliminate the crown ground out sections, and they were not re-regulated, or it seemed that was the case, according to the rifle owners. I seriously doubt if they were sent back to Italy, and if I were involved in those transactions, I would have requested proof of their being sent to Italy. Instead, I think the work was done by EAA, as such "work" would be typical for EAA, based on my experience (non Sabatti experience) with them.

Ron Villa,
Thank you for the kind words, I appreciate it, and agree with what you had to say too. Some people, indeed, go out of their way to discredit Sabatti double rifles for numerous reasons. I know at least two such individuals who do so, because they have a vested interest in keeping the market on double rifle prices in general, as high as possible, because they deal in the rifles, and less expensive double rifles being manufactured frighten them, due to their potential loss of profit. Some others have a strong dislike for anything, double rifle or otherwise, that come from France and/or from Italy. After I wrote some positive comments about Sabatti some time back, I was attacked verbally, called names, etc. by one individual, simply because he makes double rifles right here in America, and he doesn't like hearing such positive comments about "those foreign made double rifles. Personally, I don't have time for such petty activities, and I don't really care where a double rifle was made, if it has faults I have seen or experienced, I will say so, and same if it has positive traits that I admire. It is very easy to understand and appreciate why the very best over/under double shotguns, worldwide, are now made in Italy. The O/U actions used on the modern best quality Boss English shotguns are made in Italy!


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Ben
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Re: Sabatti Double Rifles, Brickbats & Bouquets *DELETED* [Re: doubleriflejack]
      #183964 - 17/06/11 07:39 AM

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FATBOY404
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Re: Sabatti Double Rifles, Brickbats & Bouquets *DELETED* [Re: Ben]
      #183966 - 17/06/11 07:57 AM

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"WHATEVER BLOWS YOUR HAIR BACK"


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FATBOY404
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Re: Sabatti Double Rifles, Brickbats & Bouquets *DELETED* *DELETED* [Re: FATBOY404]
      #183980 - 17/06/11 12:46 PM

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Mike_Bailey
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Re: Sabatti Double Rifles, Brickbats & Bouquets [Re: FATBOY404]
      #183996 - 17/06/11 05:39 PM

doubleriflejack, while Boss maybe selling an entry level shotgun based on an Italian action I am 100% certain that a Boss "best" is made in England. p.s. that doesn´t mean that you are wrong when you say some of the best O/U shotguns are Italian made, best

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hunter_angler
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Re: Sabatti Double Rifles, Brickbats & Bouquets [Re: Mike_Bailey]
      #184023 - 18/06/11 12:38 AM

I have a Sabatti in .470 NE and have none of the problems spoken of above. Like DRJack I am pleased with the quality and aesthetics overall, particularly the figuring in the wood which is among the best of the gunstocks I own. I haven't hunted with the Sabatti, but it does shoot good groups at the range from a bench.

Maybe I am just a wimp, but my biggest gripe is that I find the gun to be a bit of a handfull to shoot off-hand. I have added a KICK_EEZ slip-on recoil pad over the factory hard rubber one, and that has helped some. I just think it would help a lot if Sabatti built the rifle about a pound heavier. Apparently Sabatti uses the same actions/barrel blanks for all calibers and as the bore increases the guns get lighter. You guys with the .500s must have it even worse. I can only imagine what .577s or .600s would have been like to shoot. For comparison I have a Winchester 1885 in .50-140 in which I shoot .510 NE loads (570 gr at 2100 FPS). Weighing in at 12 plus pounds with a bull barrel, even with a crescent buttplate, it'a a relative pussycat.

I guess I would agree that although far from perfect, if carefully inspected and modified where necessary, these are good, functional double rifles for the money. There were a lot of complaints a year or so ago that Cabelas was the only importer. Maybe the upside now is that the folks in Sidney will stand behind the product and have the necessary throw weight with Sabatti to get the Italian factory to properly correct any serious problems customers are experiencing.

--------------------
old school rimmy


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