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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Paradox and Bore Guns
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Mike_Johnson
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Reged: 17/10/09
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Loc: York, Pa
my 12 bore sxs with fully rifled barrels
      #182070 - 21/05/11 12:44 AM

Below are pics of my 12 bore, fully rifled, sxs slug gun. Wanted one because more and more land is becoming shotgun only here. Made by Richard Shew. Its based on a Savage 311 action. He added side plates, action job, new stock and foregrip, custom barrels that are fully rifled, 22" long with a two leaf rear sight and gold bead front. Regulated at 75 yards for the Brenneke 3" Black Magic Magnum slugs. #3k of energy at the muzzle. Should be a a great deer and hog rifle. Sling swivels help in the carry.















Edited by CptCurl (26/05/11 08:49 PM)

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tinkerModerator
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Re: my 12 bore sxs with fully rifled barrels [Re: Mike_Johnson]
      #182073 - 21/05/11 01:51 AM

Looks like fun!

That ammunition claims ~600grains at 1500fps
Have you chronographed the rifle yet?
How does it shoot on paper?
What does the rifle weigh?
What was the cost?




Cheers
Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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Mike_Johnson
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Re: my 12 bore sxs with fully rifled barrels [Re: tinker]
      #182078 - 21/05/11 04:48 AM

Tinker, thanks for the comments.

The rifle is shooting right around 2" apart at 50 yards, and the barrels are shooting about an 1 1/4 ctc left side and right side groups. thats for 4 shots in succession. Chronographing right at fatory specs with a standard deviation around factory specs of 7fps. Rifle weighs in at an ounce over 7#. I paid $2K for it off gunbroker. I stocked in multiple cases of ammo. Used it last year on whitetail here in Penn's woods. I have also shot regular shot out of it. I use fiber wad ammo and it prints open choke both barrels. Sights are easy to see in low light. Got in some dove shooting and some small game with it too. Right now, if I was staying at home and could only have one hunting firearm, this would be the one. I may upgrade one day for a higher grade version but for the rest of my hunting career, I plan on having one of these in the cabinet. (I did see a nice one for $9K while brousing last night). I was able to resist the temptation.

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lancaster
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Re: my 12 bore sxs with fully rifled barrels [Re: tinker]
      #182079 - 21/05/11 04:48 AM

a solid working gun for every day

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: my 12 bore sxs with fully rifled barrels [Re: Mike_Johnson]
      #182103 - 21/05/11 03:11 PM

Quote:

I paid $2K for it off gunbroker.



Wow. Is that a good deal for it? Sounds like it.

Or a normal price pre-owned for this sort of gun?

Quote:

I stocked in multiple cases of ammo. Used it last year on whitetail here in Penn's woods. I have also shot regular shot out of it. I use fiber wad ammo and it prints open choke both barrels. Sights are easy to see in low light. Got in some dove shooting and some small game with it too. Right now, if I was staying at home and could only have one hunting firearm, this would be the one.



Sounds like a fun gun for your area of the world.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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Mike_Johnson
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Re: my 12 bore sxs with fully rifled barrels [Re: NitroX]
      #182113 - 22/05/11 02:01 AM

I thought it was a good deal. I have not seen another 12 bore sxs with rifled barrels. They just arent made to my knowledge. Most of the home made double rifles I have seen go for about $4k. The new 20ga ball and shot guns are running around that price on Doublegun. The guy I bought this from had one in 20 and and one in 12 and didnt want the 12. I on the other hand, wanted the 12 bore. It fits my basic hunting needs along with a bolt gun in 30-06, my double 9,3x74R my soon to have 470NE,My .54 cal flintlock and my 20 gage sxs.

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LGF
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Re: my 12 bore sxs with fully rifled barrels [Re: Mike_Johnson]
      #182215 - 23/05/11 05:50 AM

Please pardon an ignorant question - can ordinary shotgun barrels have rifling cut into them? I have had a short-barreled Stevens 311 for 30 years which had one box of shells put through it when new and has never been used since - too ugly to even look at, but if it could be made into an accurate slug gun, I might think about it.

If so, who does that sort of work, and how much would it cost?

Thanks.

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tinkerModerator
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Re: my 12 bore sxs with fully rifled barrels [Re: LGF]
      #182219 - 23/05/11 06:20 AM

Two grand does seem to be a very good deal in that rifle.
There are quite a few makers who will knock out a 12b double rifle. I was handling a very very sweet Verney-Carron 12b SxS at Reno SCI.

LGF, if there was enough wall to the tubes on your 12b shotgun, I'm sure it could be done, but I doubt it's heavy enough in the walls to make it.
Gun barrels tend to be pretty thin at the center section, and then *if it could make it there and past proof* it would surely need radical re-regulation and a big facelift on the sights.
Best to go whole-hog.




Cheers
Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: my 12 bore sxs with fully rifled barrels [Re: Mike_Johnson]
      #182278 - 23/05/11 07:48 PM

Thanks Mike for the reply.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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DarylS
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Re: my 12 bore sxs with fully rifled barrels [Re: NitroX]
      #182342 - 24/05/11 10:02 AM

Absolutely marvelous, Mike!

I'd be experimenting with round balls - I would about lay odds your rifle would regulate RB's at Cape Buffalo stomping speeds - say 1,600fps to 1,650fps. The recoil would be just slightly higher than the Brenneke slugs, which I think might be necessary to get the barrels to shoot together.
I would use a .710" or .690" ball, held centred by a plastic gas check with cup under the ball. That way, no leading, and yet the ball will be centered and spun by the rifling.

Just a guess on the regulation, mind you.

Trackofthewolf.com sells round balls in may sizes, 25 to a bag = perfect for testing.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: my 12 bore sxs with fully rifled barrels [Re: DarylS]
      #182605 - 26/05/11 08:46 PM

Definitely a great and useful gun to have.

I also would want to try round balls. If it will regulate round balls, that would be my choice of projectile for it.

What is the rifling twist rate?

Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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Mike_Johnson
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Re: my 12 bore sxs with fully rifled barrels [Re: CptCurl]
      #182608 - 26/05/11 10:43 PM

I will have to try some balls out of it. I don't know exactly but by looking down the barrel it looks like there are 8 grooves, all completing one full twist and about 15 degrees of another before I run out of barrel so I'm guessing 1:20.

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DarylS
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Re: my 12 bore sxs with fully rifled barrels [Re: Mike_Johnson]
      #182624 - 27/05/11 07:46 AM

Quote:

I will have to try some balls out of it. I don't know exactly but by looking down the barrel it looks like there are 8 grooves, all completing one full twist and about 15 degrees of another before I run out of barrel so I'm guessing 1:20.



1:20 sounds Pac-Nor? Quite fast, think I'd still try RB's though. The ability to load your own ammo, adjusting loads to suit different situations is quite worth while to me.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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GK
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Re: my 12 bore sxs with fully rifled barrels [Re: DarylS]
      #182636 - 27/05/11 12:56 PM

What's the attaraction of round balls over the brenneke slugs?
George

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Mike_Johnson
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Re: my 12 bore sxs with fully rifled barrels [Re: GK]
      #182637 - 27/05/11 01:08 PM

the attraction is ability to cast your own and hense money savings. the ability to vary the load for circumstances is also an attraction. Plus loading is a fun pasttime in its own right.

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DarylS
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Re: my 12 bore sxs with fully rifled barrels [Re: Mike_Johnson]
      #182640 - 27/05/11 02:48 PM

One otehr aspect of round balls, is inceased expansion penetration if desired. With a factory slug, you are tied to what it will do.

Please don't read this as a put-down on Brenneke's - they have poven to be excellent for many game animals - it's just that round balls have a greater arena of possible use, from the same animals as the Brenneke'scan handle to also include dangerous game if desired. Being spherical in profile, they punch ball sized holes and being solid in nature, they penetrate more deeply than a hollow bullet.

"A ball that size (for 14 bore ML) if hardened with mercury or tin & driven by 4 or 4 1/2 drams (roughly 1,400fps to 1,500fps, and weighing 460gr.,) will go through and through an elephant's head" so said Samual Baker. He was speaking of Indian Elephants but I see no reason to dispute his statement.

This 12 bore has more power yet and is capable of obtaining the speed of the heavy 12 bore 9 dram heavy charge along with any lesser load. Personally, I've shot a number of the heavy 2 3/4" load of 7 drams of GOEX2F and that kicked quite enough from my light double smooth shot gun. The velocity was 1,550fps and accuracy sufficient for deer to 100 meters, where I managed groups off hand of 10", firing rights and lefts.

There is a world of testing in store for David, I hope.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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GK
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Re: my 12 bore sxs with fully rifled barrels [Re: DarylS]
      #182643 - 27/05/11 03:15 PM

Reloading advantages aside, I assumed that the traditional slug (ie Foster type) was ballistically superior.

I can now see that although it might be better aerodynamically as far as terminal performance goes, the fact that its hollow will limit its performance.

Sounds like another thing on the to do list.

George

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450_Ackley
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Re: my 12 bore sxs with fully rifled barrels [Re: GK]
      #182645 - 27/05/11 05:04 PM

Here's a picture of the wad I use with my round ball loads, it's called a "Light Brush Wad" from Ballistic Products.
I find it does exactly as Daryl suggests, it acts as the gas seal, has a cushion area and the other end centres the ball down the barrel. Works brilliantly.
Easier to load than a shot charge. Dump the powder, seat a wad, stuff a Liquid Alox lubed ball down on top of it and star crimp as per normal, and go and shoot it.
(Worthwhile marking the cases though, just in case of a mix up!)

The make awesome skeet loads with an ounce of #9's as well.

Regards,
David.



Edited by CptCurl (14/06/11 08:48 PM)

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DarylS
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Re: my 12 bore sxs with fully rifled barrels [Re: 450_Ackley]
      #182667 - 28/05/11 01:39 AM

That looks like a super wad for smokeless RB loads, David.

George - from my perspective - the 1oz. Foster lags behind the RB in weight to diameter ratio and thus is too light for it's diameter, while the 1 1/4" Federal slug comes out the same as a .715" RB in weight, making it the best of the Fosters. Thus, the 1 1/4oz. slug would be ok - however. Trouble is, the Fosters are pure lead or very nearly pure lead and squash up upon impact with hard objects, turning into more like disks. Upon ignition, they shorten/slug up/obturate to fill the bore. In expending to fill the bore, they shorten. If the gun is a norminal 12 bore, ie: .729" or .730", the slug doesn't have to expand much to fill it, but any expansion takes away from it's aerodynamic advantage, if any, squashes/flattens the 'vanes' and distorts the slug's side, sometimes causing slumping to one side or the other. This changes the integrity, trueness of the bullet's base, causing problems upon departure with the muzzle. I am possitive this is why Fosters give unaccounted flyers - sometimes wayyy out in left field. I don't trust that I won't get a flyer when shooting at game. I want to be able to count on the accuracy of my gun, every time I pull that trigger.

A gun's bore/groove diameter that is the same size as the Foster will reduce slugging or compression to a minimum and 'probably' give the best accuracy. Their failure on heavy game and soft lead fouling then becomes their primary disadvantage, imho, of course.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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GK
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Re: my 12 bore sxs with fully rifled barrels [Re: DarylS]
      #182681 - 28/05/11 11:32 AM

Daryl,
I totally agree with your comments about forster type slugs and poor accuracy. I have always imagined that an experienced cast bullet loader could do much to improve these though.

Years ago (early 1990's) when super dangerous pump action shotguns were legal in Australia, I had a Win 1300 and as soon as I heard rumours that Winchester were offering special order rifled barrels I ordered one for it. It took over 14 months for me to get it but when coupled to a Weaver V4.5 scope I was very happy. This was until I started playing with it and could only get 5 inch groups at 50m which was not much better than I was getting with a smooth bore. This was with various factory loaded Forster slugs (namely Win, remington and a few others), so yes I know the limitations of the factory forsters, I just imagined that RB's would be worse. Brenneke's were much better out to 75m, but nothing like the saboted slugs that were available in the US but not Oz.

I then discovered the S&B "slugs" that were a nylon encased brass projectile. These gave me 3-4" groups at 100m and I was once again very happy. This was my close in pig gun until it was made illegal in 1996.

As an aside,the state that I was living in at the time, Victoria, also considered solid slugs as special ammo that I had to apply in writting to get permission for me to shoot them.

I look forward to some range reports on the RB loads.

George

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DarylS
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Re: my 12 bore sxs with fully rifled barrels [Re: GK]
      #182682 - 28/05/11 11:56 AM

Some guns, even smoothbores shot the Forsters much better than that, however there were usually, in a 5 shot group, 1 to 3 flyers - sometimes as much as 5" or 6" out side a nice cluster.

I've hear the factory rifled shotugns don't like the Fosters, which is fine.

My only 'slug' shooting from a rifled Mossberg 835, has been with some .710" RB's, held central to the bore with cut-dwon steel shot wads. This gun has a .714" bore, with .724" groove diameter. I didn't measure it, but suspect it's the standard 36" twist.

Although short for it's 3 1/2" chamber, I used 2 3/4" Fed Hulls, with SR4756 powder and a single 1/2" fibre wad IIRC right now - got it written down somewhere. I didn't chrono it, but wanted to test the poi with faccory set-up sights. They hit right on the bead at 25 yards, 5 shots, fairly rapid fire - group of 2" offhand - Surprisingly, they felt and appeared to be about max. I suspect the velocity is in the 1,700fps range for a hardened ball that's over 500gr.

I am sure David will achieve 2" to 2 1/2" at 50 yards with iron sights from his double.

Just think, what a wonderful gun to pack and with which to kill something big and hairy. Gives me goosebumps & gets me all giggly just imagining it - oh yeah! Sometimes I forget I'm 61.

Friend of mine bummed some hardened .684" balls from me. He then loaded his 1 1/4oz. lead shot duck load powder charge, of something like 24.0gr. of SR7625 (faster than 4756) a hard card, then fibre wad and the round ball patched in teeshirt material, as-if a muzzleloaded ball. I told him to make sure he could push the patched ball out his choke. He claimed 3" at 50 yards from his full choked Win. duck gun.

In testing his round ball loads, he fired two successive shots at a 45 Imperial gallon (50 or 55 US)fuel/oil drum. The first shot was a WW factroy Foster slug of 1oz., which made a shiny lead-covered dent, barely cracking the drum with a bit of lead extruding through the crack. The fairly low velocity round ball (maybe 1,250fps- maybe 1,300fps) punched through both sides of the drum and exited. He figured it would do for a moose while duck hunting - he was right.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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