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H&H and Purdey Vs Searcy
      #18183 - 19/08/04 03:59 PM

This is strictly an academic question.

If you were to compare a double from H&H or Purdey to something like the Searcy are there any actual gains with the two English guns. Leave out quality of wood or engraving.

Would it for example be like comparing a bench gun to a Remington Sendero or some other factory out of the box heavier barrel accuracy gun. By that I mean that in the field either will be OK but the bench gun is more accurate and that can be demonstrated. I am not suggesting that one double rifle be compared to another double on accuracy, rather I am asking if there are any gains with H&H over Searcy that can be demonstrated.

Mike



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Marrakai
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Re: H&H and Purdey Vs Searcy [Re: Mike375]
      #18191 - 19/08/04 10:41 PM

If you have to ask this question, you're not likely to be able to understand the answer.

HANDLING!!!!

Americans seem to get hung up on balance, ie half the weight either side of the midpoint, whereas the weight DISTRIBUTION is the critical factor, ie half the weight (or more) in the centre third of the rifle, the remaining half divided equally between the muzzles and the butt. This means NO mercury reducers in the butt, NO heavy barrel-wall thickness at the muzzles, and NO slim 20-bore shotgun-type actions.

No law suits please, just my opinion based on observation....



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bonanza
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Re: H&H and Purdey Vs Searcy [Re: Mike375]
      #18192 - 19/08/04 10:42 PM

Don't know, but would love to see a shoot off! A sercy, starts about $10,000. Merkel and krighoff a bit less. H&H and Purdy about $100,000+ (I shit you not, I stopped by both show rooms when I lived in London and got a price brochure) However, you asked about demonstrable difference. That probably is manifested in feel and balance. I'll admit that my Merkel is clubby, an H&H or Purdy will fit you like a glove and swing like a fine shotgun. They will also last 200 years. I've handled and shot a new ($90,000) Purdy O/U shotgun, they are quite remarkable.

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bonanza
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Re: H&H and Purdey Vs Searcy [Re: Marrakai]
      #18193 - 19/08/04 10:52 PM

Marrakai,

You are describing the classic example of polar moment. It affects everything that moves. Cars, planes, ships, and guns. Here are some inovations that tamed it. Cars: the mid-engine design, Planes: the canard, Sailboat: the sloop, Guns: your description of mass distribution.

B.

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"Life is absurd, chaotic and we must define its purpose with our actions" Abert Camus

"I''m the dude playing a dude disguised as another dude."

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Re: H&H and Purdey Vs Searcy [Re: bonanza]
      #18194 - 19/08/04 10:58 PM

They will also last 200 years.

So is there some thing about them from a mechanical point of view that means they will last for a long time.

Mike


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Re: H&H and Purdey Vs Searcy [Re: Marrakai]
      #18195 - 19/08/04 11:06 PM

Marrakai

If Searcy made a double rifle with the same "handling" characteristics as H&H and Purdey........then how would the two types compare.

Mike



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bonanza
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Re: H&H and Purdey Vs Searcy [Re: Mike375]
      #18196 - 19/08/04 11:06 PM

As long as they are not abused, an H&H or Purdy will last 200+ years. This is primarily due to these makers sparing no expense in materials, design and chambering low pressure cartridges. History is on there side already. There are many fine smooth bores in the 140+ year range still in use

--------------------


"Speak Precisely" G. Gordon Liddy.

"Life is absurd, chaotic and we must define its purpose with our actions" Abert Camus

"I''m the dude playing a dude disguised as another dude."

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500grains
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Re: H&H and Purdey Vs Searcy [Re: bonanza]
      #18200 - 20/08/04 01:22 AM

They will also last 200 years.

A best quality heavily engraved English gun that is not shot much or at all will indeed last 200 years. But there are lots of mid grade and field grade English guns out there less than 100 years old that are very ratty, off face, loose and out of regulation. That does not mean that an English gun is necessarily bad, but most of those which have been used a lot show it. In fact, in the past 10 years there have been reports of newly-made English guns coming off face in 250 rounds or so. Perhaps that was due to abuse, or perhaps not. I have also heard of 2 separate reports of recent production H&H's doubling in the field, through no fault of the shooter. Often folks who hunt with vintage English guns send them off to a competent double gunsmith yearly to be tightened up.

Further, Brown Bess muskets have lasted more than 200 years, but that does not mean they were of fabulous quality when made.

Another intersting fact is that the Great Depression and World War II deprived many of the master double rifle makers in London of their livelihood and sent them either into retirement or on to paying work. The result was a loss of this skill, and consequently some flaky quality double guns were being made in London in the post World War II era.

But as to which is better, one way to compare rifles is by exterior appearance. That is a matter of personal taste.

Another way to compare rifles is by 'feel' and 'handling'. Again, this is subjective and cannot be measured by any quantitative method. I have seen English and continental doubles that fit me beautifully, and others that fit and handled like crap. Likewise, not every American made rifle fits me well, but some do. As a custom rifle is made to fit a particular person, it is difficult to criticize the fit of a rifle that was not made to fit you because it may fit the guy it was built for just wonderfully.

Another way to compare is by the amount of labor that goes into each rifle. A best quality English double takes about 700 man hours of work to make, not including engraving time. I doubt a $10K double has anywhere near that many man hours in it, but it was not intended to either. There is also an efficiency factor to consider, as a production gunmaker will be much more efficient than a gunsmith who turns out hand made items one at a time. That does not mean the production gun is not as good as the hand made gun, but the production gun does take less time to make.

Another way to compare double rifles is durability. Other than anecdotal evidence, this is a tough one. Some English guns are reported going off face at 250 rounds, and at least one Searcy has lasted more than 6000 rounds without going off face. But since this is only anecdotal evidence, no firm conclusions can be reaches. A better way to compare durability would be to fire a new Searcy, Kriehoff, Merkel, Heym, Purdey, H&H and WR all side by side for 5000 rounds to see the order in which they go off face, go out of regulation, split stocks, or otherwise malfunction. It would be quite an expensive and time consuming proposition, and I doubt anyone will try it.

Another way to compare doubles is to look at what guns are winning the double rifle shooting competitions. Australia has some of these competitions, although it might not be a fair measure since most of the rifles there are vintage English. Without significant representation by newly made rifles, the results will be skewed. In other words, if 9 out of 10 rifles entered into the competition are vintage English, it should be no surprise when a vintage English gun wins.

The US also has a double rifle shooting championship. Last year it was won by Butch Searcy shooting one of his rifles that is presently owned by Ray Atkinson.


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Peterb
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Re: H&H and Purdey Vs Searcy [Re: Mike375]
      #18210 - 20/08/04 02:00 AM

The main difference is a factor of 10 in price. Traditionally, one would think the American guns are more machine made and the Brit guns are more hand made, but I doubt if there is much difference. For example, Purdey uses Hoenig machines for stock work. If someone insists on hand cut stocks, they sent the work to David Trevallion (ex-Purdey) in America. David charged about $6500 for the stock job. Butch made his own turning machine and finished and fits by hand, like most Purdey guns. Butch then glasses in for perfect fit and protection from oils and moisture intrusion. Purdey doesn't and this is a plus for the Searcy gun. Butch uses a stainless action (built from scratch, not based on a 20 ga shotgun like the Merkel or Rigby) which is also a plus. Butch makes both boxlocks and sidelocks.

The bottom line is that strength wise, I cannot see the Brit guns being as strong as Searcy, but H&H and Purdey are the classic names and superb guns. To each his own and viva la difference.


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chrispie
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Re: H&H and Purdey Vs Searcy [Re: Peterb]
      #18224 - 20/08/04 08:13 AM

Comparing a Searcy and a WR or H&H is like comparing a Honda sedan to an Austin Martin, or a Bentley. The Honda is reliable, safe and will take you to the same place a Bentley would, but you just can’t compare them. I own a 470 searcy and find it accurate and durable, you also don’t have to worry about putting a few scratches in it. For myself living in the states I find owning a firearm that can be repaired in a very quick turn around time a plus. Butch stands behind his product and was a pleasure to deal with. Don’t get me wrong if you have the extra 125k for a H&H then you don’t have to worry about what to buy, just buy them both and see for yourself. If not, well I like my searcy it does want I want it to do at a fraction of the price of a new royal grade H&H.
I just can' t justify spending that kind of money on a H&H, if your going to spend that kind of cash, I’d look at the Westley Richards or William Evans for about 55k-65k. either one would be my choice for an English double.


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Marrakai
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Re: H&H and Purdey Vs Searcy [Re: Peterb]
      #18228 - 20/08/04 08:30 AM

OK, here's another one...

ELEGANCE!!!

American double-makers appear reluctant to build a gun with a truly slim wrist (it might break!) or to trim down the muzzles (..might be too 'whippy'!), or build-in that fine, rakish look (..might not appear to be strong enough!).

The American market for firearms, and in fact all things, is very 'trendy' compared with the British market which relies far more on tradition. US makers must therefore stay one step ahead of a fickle market, and would ignore inter-net forum gossip, rumour, and heresay at their economic peril. All a Brit maker has to do is continue to make them like they always have!


Mike:
If a Searcy, for instance, achieved a similar weight distribution (ie moment of inertia) then it would indeed be sweet-handling, and Brit best guns would likely have no FUNCTIONAL advantage. Function is only part of the equasion when shooting doubles of course, most owners or aspiring owners are more or less influenced by these guns' romantic past in India and the Dark Continent, and that was primarily British! If you are going to shell out the kind of money a double rifle demands today, might as well get one you REALLY LIKE!!!

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Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
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470Rigby
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Re: H&H and Purdey Vs Searcy [Re: Mike375]
      #18237 - 20/08/04 12:08 PM

Here we go AGAIN!!!

I think that all of these arguments have been trotted out in another thread, so I can't see the point in going over old ground - except to say - why is it that all British guns are lumped together??

This has as much validity as comparing the relative merits of beer and red wine - naturally there are good and bad examples. I dare say even Searcy doesn't get it exactly right every time - like all manufactured products - otherwise there would be no need for a manufacurers warranty!

The futility of the debate becomes even more evident when posters insist on extrapolating experiences with 100 year old guns from British makers to making assessments about their modern production!

That some of these makers are still in existence however does say something about their products, but would anybody seriously draw on their experiences with an A Model Ford to provide a basis to make a buying decision about a Ford of 2004 manufacture?

A good gun is where you find it! MOVE ON!



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500grains
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Re: H&H and Purdey Vs Searcy [Re: Mike375]
      #18248 - 20/08/04 03:59 PM

Mike,

Why don't you write Mr. Weatherby a letter and ask him to make double rifles?

Some features he could consider:

- chrome plated barrels
- naked ladies carved into the stock instead of checkering
- giant muzzle brakes
- no sights / scoped use only



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Re: H&H and Purdey Vs Searcy [Re: 500grains]
      #18250 - 20/08/04 04:17 PM

And one barrel in 30/378 and the other barrel in 378

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Peterb
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Re: H&H and Purdey Vs Searcy [Re: 500grains]
      #18251 - 20/08/04 04:57 PM

Wulff makes a special locking mechanism for belted cases in doubles and makes 460 and 378, etc doubles.

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mickey
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Re: H&H and Purdey Vs Searcy [Re: 500grains]
      #18252 - 20/08/04 06:22 PM

In reply to:

,

Why don't you write Mr. Weatherby a letter and ask him to make double rifles?

Some features he could consider:

- chrome plated barrels
- naked ladies carved into the stock instead of checkering
- giant muzzle brakes
- no sights / scoped use only




How about a composite stock and a stainless steel action?

Perhaps a bayonet lug and flash suppressors?

Better yet a BOSS System. It would make regulating a lot easier.

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.


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ALF
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Re: H&H and Purdey Vs Searcy [Re: Mike375]
      #18353 - 23/08/04 03:55 PM

What a crock of kaka !

Both modern H&H and Purdey build guns with modern steel technology, both use CNC and CAD technology to make actions and parts and have been doing so for some time.

Final finish and fitting is still done by master craftsmen, actioneers, barrel makers and stock fitters. And those who work there can and do still go by title as apprentice to, or master craftsman to....

Mechanically they are sound a houses and what seems to elude all here is that they hold the patents gentlemen.

They ( the english gunamkers) collectively designed all the actions now used and copied by all mentioned.

So quite frankly I do not know where this notion comes from that a modern best English double is in any way inferior to anything out there, especially coming from the USA!

As to financial backing, some may not know but H&H is owned by Chanel and Purdey by Vendome Luxury PLC.

Vendome is host to a myriad of companies including Cartier, fashion houses and perfumiers such a Chloe. The parent companies of Vendome include Rothmans Tobacco and Dunhill.

South African Johan Rupert son of Anton Rupert of the corporate giant Rembrandt group is financial director of Vendome.


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500Nitro
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Re: H&H and Purdey Vs Searcy [Re: ALF]
      #18355 - 23/08/04 06:36 PM


Mike375,

Every time you see a double rifle (or shotgun) by Purdey or Holland, ask if you can pick it up
and "feel it". Also have a look at the fit etc

The go and pick up a Merkel etc etc and feel the difference.

I have and / or do own all of the makes and have shot them all so I can talk from personal experience.

One thing to remember - look at the makret each company is aiming at - Purdey and Holland have a
different clientele to Searcy / Merkel and that is not to take anything away from Searcy.

Look at the current J Rigby & Sons doubles - you can even see the faults in the advertising photos.
Many of my US friends are embarrassed at what has been done to such a great name.

Just my point of view.

500 Nitro







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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: H&H and Purdey Vs Searcy [Re: ALF]
      #18357 - 23/08/04 07:26 PM

Alf

I knew Holland & Holland is owned by Chanel which includes a Champagne house in its stable as well - I think Piper Heidseick (splg?). (I remember the lovely ladies in the cellar all dressed in Chanel business suits.

I didn't know Purdey was owned by Vendome Luxury PLC. Thanks for the information.




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John aka NitroX

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Peterb
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Re: H&H and Purdey Vs Searcy [Re: NitroX]
      #18377 - 24/08/04 01:14 AM

Even with the absurdly high prices, the gun divisions of Channel make NO profit. It is the Purdey (H&H, etc) NAME which has value and results in high profits from clothes, etc sales. This takes nothing away from the quality of the guns, it is simply a fact of modern corporate survival.

The better Brit guns are certainly well balanced, but the ones I have hefted are a couple pounds too heavy. The other point which I dislike about them are the sometimes hideous engraving they incorporate. H&H just LOVES to advertize a double rifle with a gold wash over the African game scene which is simply pitiful. Some Purdey shotgun advertized engraving has some strange modernistic designs in an "American" engraving style which has me reaching for the nearest barf bag. The engraving in these instances is well done, simply without artistic taste. Go back to rose & scroll, fellows.


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bonanza
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Re: H&H and Purdey Vs Searcy [Re: Peterb]
      #18383 - 24/08/04 02:46 AM

What do mean "American"? I have just ordered an H&H and specified that on one side lock there be a deep engraving of my 4X4 pick-up and the other a confederate flag! Whats so bad about that?

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Morten
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Re: H&H and Purdey Vs Searcy [Re: bonanza]
      #18387 - 24/08/04 03:32 AM

Actually The whole company Venedome is bought by Richemont Group. (I do not remember the site adress) So it is this Richemont Group that owns Purdey to day.

Some comment to this engraving discussion. Purdey makes guns for two types of people. The hunters and collectors. I think it is about 50/50. The hunter usualy order guns with the famuse standard fine engraving (also called Purdey engraving or rose and scroll, this was introdused by J. Lucas in 1860 who was an engraver at Purdeys.) This engraving takes 200 manhours to do.

The heavy engraving project started in texas around 1950. Harry Lawrence was on a sales trip in Texas. They wanted "Pretty Guns" or "Purdey guns" And to reply to that demand J.P.T.Y. said: "If that is the american wants, I suppose we had better gve it to them".

To day these heavy engraving collectors have no limit for their orders. They want a whole series of guns engraved from one spesial engraver. Then a whole new series from another engraver. And when you see these engraved guns firsthand (I have seen a Purdey O/U gold engraved to 180000£)it is just breathtaking. And nothing can compare with it. It may be ugly in some eays but this workmanship is just awesome. I agree that an original Purdey is the one with Rose and scroll engraving. But i find it interesting to look at the heavy guns to and I am glad that someone are willing to pay to keep this artwork alive.



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Peterb
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Re: H&H and Purdey Vs Searcy [Re: Morten]
      #18390 - 24/08/04 04:41 AM

For some years, the main Purdey engraver was a German who used the deeper style which isn't to the tastes of many. This gentleman was a fine engraver but just had a non-English style. He died in a traffic accident so there were not too many years of this engraving. Now the Purdey engravers are very good, but the "American style" with which they often advertise is not done with much artistry. It is individual patterns which are usually not connected to other patterns in the engraved areas. Now it is well crafted, but there is no artistry in it. It reminds me of some of the Bulino engraving from Italy. These works often use up to 5 engravers. One specializes in people (nekked or not), one in dogs, one in background scenery, etc. The problem is that even though the individual artists are superb, these individual elements are not tied together...therefore lacking artistry. You can tell something is wrong, but it is hard to figure out just what. Now the Purdey "American style" suffers this in greater amount as there is sometimes no attempt to put them together. Now if someone without taste has ordered this...fine. But to use this as an advertising plum can turn people off. These can be seen in the Double Gun Journal over the last few years.

"American style" engraving is a term for larger scroll which is often seen with similar gold inlays is straight line work and the larger scroll. Purdey has added stylized animals and features to this and it is, frankly, quite silly looking.

Bonanza, The flag is great, but the pickup.........all depends upon the type. Hope you aren't a Cheby man....that would be obscene!

Edited by Peterb (24/08/04 04:45 AM)


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bonanza
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Re: H&H and Purdey Vs Searcy [Re: Peterb]
      #18413 - 24/08/04 11:32 PM

Di-hard ford man! 1994 Bronco XLT with the 351 windsor upgrade.

--------------------


"Speak Precisely" G. Gordon Liddy.

"Life is absurd, chaotic and we must define its purpose with our actions" Abert Camus

"I''m the dude playing a dude disguised as another dude."

"Yo! Mr. White"


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500grains
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Re: H&H and Purdey Vs Searcy [Re: Peterb]
      #18421 - 25/08/04 12:25 AM

I was thinking of getting my double engraved with Michael Jackson on one side and Michael Moore on the other. On the bottom I will have my name and address engraved, so that if I misplace the double, someone can just drop it into the nearest post office box.

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