NitroX
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.318 Westley Richards vs .333 Jeffery
Not wanting to hyjack the eljefedouble thread on the .333, so starting a new thread, but somewhat a very similar topic.
I have previously mentioned a strong interest in the .318 WR, on my Tiger Rifle thread. But secretly was always tempted by the .333 Jeffery.
I also am getting very soon a barrel in 8x68S (.323) for my Mauser M03 and put the .318 idea on hold as really what could it offer over a 8x68S for practical hunting purposes? The 8x68S will have more power, a greater range of projectiles to use, and be an excellent hunting calibre.
But having taken up BGRC shooting, the Group 1 competition requires a calibre over or including .330 . So the .323 8x68S will be too small for this. I can use my .375 and have and will, but would like something around the .330 level in addition.
Not interested in a .338 WM, .338/06,.35 Whelan etc at all so no need to bring these up. I want it in a classic calibre with a classic "British" style period stock.
While both of these cartridges are usually loaded with 250 gr type bullets, I would hope to be able to use a sub 200 gr porjectile for normal deer and medium game hunting. Therefore my interest in 180 gr range or thereabouts bullets.
So this is my analysis:
.318 Westley Richards
.330 calibre
Bullets available:
180 gr listed by Kynoch perhaps a Woodleigh?
180 gr Bertram SP
250 gr Woodleigh FMJ
250 gr Woodleigh RNSP
165 gr GS Custom HV109
180 gr GS Custom HP023
Any others?
Ballistics
180 gr MV 2700 fps ME 2900 ft lbs
250 gr MV 2400 fps ME 3200 ft lbs
Per the chamber reamer list elsewhere on NE, there are reamers available for the .318 WR.
Brass? I have not investigated the availability of brass. However I believe .30-06 brass can be substituted, and if building a rifle from scratch perhaps have the rifle made to take the .30-06 in the first place.
.333 Jeffery Rimless
.333 calibre
Bullets available:
250 gr Woodleigh FMJ
250 gr Woodleigh RNSP
300 gr Woodleigh FMJ
215 gr GS Custom HV248
Any others?
Ballistics
250 gr MV 2400 fps ME 3200 ft lbs
250 gr MV 2150 fps ME 3100 ft lbs
Per the chamber reamer list elsewhere on NE, there are no reamers currently available for the .333 Jeffery.
Brass? I have not investigated the availability of brass.
Comemnts welcome and appreciated, criticisms etc.
Some questions & comments:
* Will a 180 gr spitzer bullet stabilise in the calibre?
* What sort of velocity would be possible with a 180 gr projectiles?
* A key for me is I want to use say a 160 gr or 180 gr or at most 200 gr for most game hunting. It needs to have good projectiles available, and also perhaps cheaper ones, for feral and target use.
* An advantage of the .318 is 300 gr .333 bullets could be swaged down to .330 as well. Suitable .338 bullets could be swaged down to either.
* Is brass available for each of the cartridges?
* Does a .333 offer any ballistic advantages over a .318 WR? From first glance, my opinion is "No".
* Where did either cartridge see 'action'? Which was the most popular? Remember my original concept was to build a "Tiger" rifle (name only of course) so the cartridge should have seen considerable use in India, as well as Africa.
- I know the .318 saw a lot of use by hunters such as WDM Bell, and Burger amoung others in Africa.
* What weight should such a rifle be? I am assuming it would use a M98 action. I assume the standard length action is fine for both?
Probably have some other thoughts but will start with these.
Please contribute.
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John aka NitroX
 ...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"
Edited by CptCurl (26/05/11 09:12 PM)
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NitroX
.700 member
Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 40685
Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...
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This is the stock blank I put aside for this project several years ago.
From this thread: http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat.php?Number=86030
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John aka NitroX
...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"
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RobertL
.224 member
Reged: 21/04/11
Posts: 21
Loc: Germany
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Hello John,
Components:
I personally think that the .318 is much easier to feed with components, as you can use .30-06 Winchester cases to form them perfectly. This is an easy job for the advanced reloader and no neck reaming is involved.
Furthermore, at least in Germany we have the following bullets available in .330 diameter
DEGOL
207 grains SM spitz HP
210 grains SM RN
250 grains SM RN
250 grains SM spitz PP
Macapuno see link below
http://www.egun.de/market/item.php?id=3249191
They offer a 200 grains 330 dia bullet for the old Steyr M95
I think you are familiar with the Woodleigh collection
Actions:
Both could be made on the 98 actions.
Again the advantage of the 318 is, that you can use 5 round military stripper clips to feed the magazine. A standard 1909 Arg Mauser magazine will give you a 5 round capacity and in Mauser 98 actions or 1935 Brazilian no feed ramp work is necessary.
The 333 Jeffery needs much more work and preferably a new magazine box to get more than 3 round into it.
Best regards
Robert
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DarylS
.700 member
Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 27726
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
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That wood is INTENSE!
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Daryl
"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V
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DarylS
.700 member
Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 27726
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
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My buddy, as noted, I think, just received his dies for sizing down .323's to .312" for his .303. The other dies he ordered, have been shipped and are for sizing .338's down to .330" for his 8x56R Steyr - or is it .328"?
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Daryl
"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V
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500Nitro
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Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
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I'd go 318WR for a whole lot of ease reasons, most of which have been mentioned.
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rigbymauser
.400 member
Reged: 15/05/05
Posts: 2027
Loc: Denmark
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The .318WR is by far the easiest cartridge to make a set-up in a M98. I was caught in that dilemma when I had my now .333Jeffery made up. I was thinking this:
1) Both calibers requires special bullets.
2) Both calibers requires special brass.(I know about the 8x60mauser)
I those the .333Jeffery for the obvious reasons:
1) It shoots a 300grain bullet.
2) If I want to, I can get close to a .338WinMag, if I feel the it has not power enough.
3) If I were anyway to go thru a true customrifle project..I might aswel go all the way.
The .333Jeffery is a specialty-round today as back then in 1908. If I wanted to save
money, I could shoot 250grain woodleighs from a bored out 8x60mauser(from 8x57)
Customprojects is not about saving money, its about follow the dream, and remain faithful
to the end, with no shortcuts.
It took me over 4 years to complete my .333Jeffery, and thrue that time I learned a whole lot about Mausers, barrelmaking and whole lot of huntinghistory. Its a rifle today, that I won`t never sell. One of my two sons will take over one day. I have one spare London proved metfordrifled barrel left, the day the rifle needs to get rebarreled..or I decide to have a last rifle made up.
Edited by rigbymauser (04/05/11 03:00 AM)
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500Nitro
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Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
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rigbymauser
I would like to disagree with you re 2) Both calibers requires special brass.
The 318WR can be made by running a 30.06 case through the 318WR die and trimming.
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rigbymauser
.400 member
Reged: 15/05/05
Posts: 2027
Loc: Denmark
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Quote:
rigbymauser
I would like to disagree with you re 2) Both calibers requires special brass.
The 318WR can be made by running a 30.06 case through the 318WR die and trimming.
I know ofcouse about the use of reforming 30-06 too...however it still say "30-06" at the bottom of the cartridge. I would like to have it says ".318 Westley Richards" = Specialty case(custom case). If one wants to save money, he could close the eyes,shoot 240grain in a 30-06 and pretend its a .318WR. 
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500Nitro
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Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
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Quote:
Quote:
rigbymauser
I would like to disagree with you re 2) Both calibers requires special brass.
The 318WR can be made by running a 30.06 case through the 318WR die and trimming.
I know ofcouse about the use of reforming 30-06 too...however it still say "30-06" at the bottom of the cartridge. I would like to have it says ".318 Westley Richards" = Specialty case(custom case). If one wants to save money, he could close the eyes,shoot 240grain in a 30-06 and pretend its a .318WR.
Sorry, but that is a wank of a statement.
Edited by 500Nitro (04/05/11 03:19 AM)
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rigbymauser
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Reged: 15/05/05
Posts: 2027
Loc: Denmark
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Quote:
Sorry, but that is a wank of a statement.
I agree with you, but I hoped you also got the point.
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500Nitro
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Loc: Victoria, Australia
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Quote:
Quote:
Sorry, but that is a wank of a statement.
I agree with you, but I hoped you also got the point.
Yes, got the point, but the LAST thing on my mind would be having 318WR on the base of the case. That can be done later in any number of ways AFTER you have the gun shooting et al. Bertram would be the cheapest.
It's a bit like Cartridge Collectors I met at a show once pulling dicks over "Paradox" cartridges they said were "original", but had stamped "Made in Italy" and Stars on the base of the cases.
At the end of the day, it was best to leave them wanking over it while we collected the real Paradox guns.
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rigbymauser
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Loc: Denmark
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Quote:
At the end of the day, it was best to leave them wanking over it while we collected the real Paradox guns.
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500Nitro
.450 member
Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
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Quote:
Quote:
At the end of the day, it was best to leave them wanking over it while we collected the real Paradox guns.
LOL
It didn't go down well with the Cartridge Collectors
but considering the guy who said it has one of the
largest collections of bore guns and Paradox's,
it was funny.
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bonanza
.400 member
Reged: 17/05/04
Posts: 2335
Loc: South Carolina
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I picked up a LH Dakota in .376 Steyr for a steal and I don't worry at night it is not a .375 H&H. With that said, I'd go for a .35 Whelen in your custom rifle and swim in the cheap ammo.
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"Speak Precisely" G. Gordon Liddy.
"Life is absurd, chaotic and we must define its purpose with our actions" Abert Camus
"I''m the dude playing a dude disguised as another dude."
"Yo! Mr. White"
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FATBOY404
.400 member
Reged: 14/11/09
Posts: 1730
Loc: QLD
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Go the 318WR.
It already looks AI.
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"WHATEVER BLOWS YOUR HAIR BACK"
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tophet1
.400 member
Reged: 15/09/07
Posts: 1873
Loc: NSW, Australia
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.318WR barrels are available on special order from Lothar Walther. They also list the reamer. No idea as to cost.
Like rigbymaser I also would like correctly headstamped brass for my overseas trips. In brisbane last month I got the third degree about my rifle and ammo, coming in and leaving. My limited dealings with Bertram reveal new brass is not as easy as just placing an order.
Either project is not going to be cheap but I agree with rigbymauser, these calibres are about following the dream ( and in my case one upmanship ) not worrying about cost. Otherwise you may as well just wildcat the .30-06 case.
Edit: All the three cartridges .30-06 (with heavy projectiles) .318WR and .333 Jeffrey I'd expect to provide similar performance in the field.
Edited by tophet1 (04/05/11 07:44 AM)
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Huvius
.416 member
Reged: 04/11/07
Posts: 3617
Loc: Colorado
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Speer used to make 275gr. .333 bullets but I don't know if they do anymore.
Maybe cheap bullets for the 8X56R could be used in the 318 like these:
http://www.grafs.com/retail/catalog/category/categoryId/925?
I don't have a 318 right now, but would agree that it would be much easier (read cheaper) to get ammo together for it. On the 30'06 brass of course.
I would like to see some hardness testing of the reduced diameter bullets as well as some cross sectioned bullets to see if the jackets are loosening.
Suppose in the BGRC shoots it doesn't matter much as far as construction integrity, but on game it may be a different matter.
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He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.
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500Nitro
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Loc: Victoria, Australia
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Huvius
"Suppose in the BGRC shoots it doesn't matter much as far as construction integrity, but on game it may be a different matter."
If just shooting vermin (pigs, roos etc), it doesn't matter what bullet you used, they fall over.
However if after Trophy / Big game, why would you skimp on the bullet - IMHO false economy - why not just use a Woodleigh or another decent game bullet. It costs bugger all in the scheme of things.
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alexbeer
.333 member
Reged: 10/04/08
Posts: 389
Loc: Tasmania, Australia
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John,
Better come and see me at the SSAA Shot Expo, and maybe we can sooth that itch
Best
ALEX
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Details matter!
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GK
.300 member
Reged: 29/10/09
Posts: 161
Loc: Adelaide
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As you have a 8x68 barrel (ie .323) on the way and you already have a .375 H&H in my mind it would make more sense to go something closer to .35 cal.
You have stated that you are not interested in .35 whelen but how about something exotic in 9mm.
A 9x57mm might be a bit too boring for you but how about 9x63mm. Its ballistics as the same as the ones you are considering but if built on a .358 barrel you will have an easy supply of projectiles from <180gr all the way to 300gr.
George
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Huvius
.416 member
Reged: 04/11/07
Posts: 3617
Loc: Colorado
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Quote:
However if after Trophy / Big game, why would you skimp on the bullet - IMHO false economy - why not just use a Woodleigh or another decent game bullet. It costs bugger all in the scheme of things.
True enough.
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He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.
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rigbymauser
.400 member
Reged: 15/05/05
Posts: 2027
Loc: Denmark
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Overhere bullets from Woodleigh whether its a 310grain .358cal, 300grain .333cal, 250grain .330cal ,410grain .416cal cost exacty the same. $2 US a piece. Horneber brass for the .318WR, 400/350rigby cost the same about $4 US a` piece. The .333Jeffery were $2 x-tra.
I could have bought Norma .404 basic or Remington RUM cases to reform, but in the end it would cost the same + the result might not be perfect.
Edited by rigbymauser (04/05/11 03:24 PM)
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500Nitro
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Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
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Quote:
Overhere bullets from Woodleigh whether its a 310grain .358cal, 300grain .333cal, 250grain .330cal ,410grain .416cal cost exacty the same. $2 US a piece. Horneber brass for the .318WR, 400/350rigby cost the same about $4 US a` piece. The .333Jeffery were $2 x-tra.
I could have bought Norma .404 basic or Remington RUM cases to reform, but in the end it would cost the same + the result might not be perfect.
What do you mean by "but in the end it would cost the same + the result might not be perfect"
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tophet1
.400 member
Reged: 15/09/07
Posts: 1873
Loc: NSW, Australia
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Quote:
Overhere bullets from Woodleigh whether its a 310grain .358cal, 300grain .333cal, 250grain .330cal ,410grain .416cal cost exacty the same. $2 US a piece. Horneber brass for the .318WR, 400/350rigby cost the same about $4 US a` piece. The .333Jeffery were $2 x-tra.
I could have bought Norma .404 basic or Remington RUM cases to reform, but in the end it would cost the same + the result might not be perfect.
That's good information to have. At least there are sources for these items and they can be purchased (eventually).
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