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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Cast Bullets

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450_Ackley
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Loc: Darling Downs, Qld Australia
Woodleigh Hydro as a cast bullet
      #180554 - 02/05/11 09:11 PM

Got to thinking the other day, after Chapuisarmes's post about a Woodleigh Hydro as a profile for a cast bullet.
I posed the question to Veral Smith, of LBT moulds in Idaho, and this is the response I got, verbatim.

"A bullet with that shape could not be knocked out of a mold, nor could the mold be opened. As I see it, the principle behind that profile, which has a very poor flight form, by the way, is that it causes a fairly hard solid bullet to expand to an ideal mushroom slightly larger than bullet diameter, which is extremely deadly and will consistently penetrate straight and true. -- It would not be good with lead however, because of the weaker metal. One could get the same effect within a much more limited velocity range than the woodleigh, by hollow pointing one of my LFN profiles in a lathe, and experimenting with the hollow point shape till bullets expand slightly. You'd have to use a low antimony alloy heat treated to around 16 bhn or the expanded portion would crumble and not hold shape."

Thought this might be of some interest as to why it most likely would not work as a cast bullet.
I think the other fly in the ointment might be that the Hydro's are a patented product, so copying one as a cast bullet might just not be the correct thing to do.

Regards,
David.


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AFRO408
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Re: Woodleigh Hydro as a cast bullet [Re: 450_Ackley]
      #180556 - 02/05/11 09:25 PM

I've been giving that some thought as well and I reckon that a stubby shaped nose, without the conical depression, just a flat nose ( a bit like the xxxx stubby with the lid on) and cast in hard lead, should give a similar performance.
A shape like this would easily come out of the mould halves.
The thing is, you don't want any expansion at all, the nose shape must stay as is for it to work.

I haven't made any boolit moulds for years, but I might just give this idea a go, just to see what the results are.

--------------------
Flinch ? Wot flinch ? Gunsmithing is my PASSION.


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CHAPUISARMES
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Re: Woodleigh Hydro as a cast bullet [Re: 450_Ackley]
      #180557 - 02/05/11 09:27 PM

I think if you check the patented description, there only has to be 'X' amount of changes to make it a different product. One, it's made of lead and play with the grooves,number,depth,width etc. That's four... Just a thought....

.


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JabaliHunter
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Reged: 16/05/07
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Re: Woodleigh Hydro as a cast bullet [Re: 450_Ackley]
      #180562 - 02/05/11 11:28 PM

Quote:

As I see it, the principle behind that profile, which has a very poor flight form, by the way, is that it causes a fairly hard solid bullet to expand to an ideal mushroom slightly larger than bullet diameter, which is extremely deadly and will consistently penetrate straight and true.



Did you set him straight?
As I understand it, they are designed not to deform, but create a wound channel by means of a 'pressure ring' around the bullet.


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DarylSModerator
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Re: Woodleigh Hydro as a cast bullet [Re: JabaliHunter]
      #180569 - 03/05/11 01:42 AM

The cup-shaped cavity on the nose, which causes cavitation in the target material with a solid bullet, would prevent the mould blocks from opening. The rest of the design is OK by the appearance of it from the standpoint of making the mould- on a lathe or with a cherry.

As a flat nose with the rest of the design, it would work fine and give some minor expansion(dependingon alloy and hardness), but much care has to be practised when casting long bullets. They have a tendency to bend when contacting the folded towel or whatever is used to cushion the bulelts as they drop from the mould.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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500Nitro
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Re: Woodleigh Hydro as a cast bullet [Re: DarylS]
      #180570 - 03/05/11 01:45 AM


"which has a very poor flight form"


Interesting comments considering those I know who have shot them have got superb accuracy out of the guns.


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gryphon
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Re: Woodleigh Hydro as a cast bullet [Re: 500Nitro]
      #180577 - 03/05/11 03:00 AM

Quote:


"which has a very poor flight form"


Interesting comments considering those I know who have shot them have got superb accuracy out of the guns.




Yep I picked that up straight off also..Federal Cartridge Co in the US got 1/2 a moa with 375`s in their testing I was informed.


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500Nitro
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Re: Woodleigh Hydro as a cast bullet [Re: gryphon]
      #180579 - 03/05/11 03:04 AM

Quote:

Quote:


"which has a very poor flight form"


Interesting comments considering those I know who have shot them have got superb accuracy out of the guns.




Yep I picked that up straight off also..Federal Cartridge Co in the US got 1/2 a moa with 375`s in their testing I was informed.





Gryph,
I was thinking of you and a few other deer hunters in particular when I read that comment (I have only shot them out of a DR and seen the accuracy out of Bolt guns).

.


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DarylSModerator
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Re: Woodleigh Hydro as a cast bullet [Re: 500Nitro]
      #180592 - 03/05/11 05:44 AM

Quote:


"which has a very poor flight form"


Interesting comments considering those I know who have shot them have got superb accuracy out of the guns.




Just possibly, or probably, accuracy wasn't what he was referring to, I'd suspect. The compound radius (venturified shoulder and cup point) at the nose probably has problems with additional atmosphere interferance, ie: greatly reducing it's ballistic form over what would normally happen with a common, ogive, flat or round nosed bullet. This is prossibly what he was referring to, not absolute accuracy.

A straight sided cylinder of lead or copper will shoot MOA at 100yards and likely create even more tissue disruption than the Hydro bullet, but has a poor flight form.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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500Nitro
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Re: Woodleigh Hydro as a cast bullet [Re: DarylS]
      #180593 - 03/05/11 05:48 AM


Understand.

Not sure a straight sided cylinder would do as you say,
I thought it was the shape at the front that caused the
bubble ?


Re poor flight form, at the ranges they are likely to be used,
I doubt it would have any affect. I might ask though.


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450_Ackley
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Re: Woodleigh Hydro as a cast bullet [Re: 500Nitro]
      #180595 - 03/05/11 06:30 AM

I thought this might get some discussion going, which is very good.
I took the poor flight form comment as to mean the Ballistic co-efficient of the projectile, the ability of the bullet to fly through the air with the minumum of resistance.
BC of a Hydro would no doubt be terrible, but as others have said, at the ranges they are likely to be used, it wouldn't matter a bit.
(Has anyone used Hydro's for distances over 200 yards to hunt with, or check drop on paper?)
I still think if a mould was made with a self-centering pin for the depression in the nose, and a few small design tweaks to the radiused edge of the nose shape, they could be cast in a mould and be successfully made.
I suppose the question then would be "Why", when we already have a lot of good cast designs that do work.
I still think it would be a very interesting exercise though.

Regards,
David.


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500Nitro
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Re: Woodleigh Hydro as a cast bullet [Re: 450_Ackley]
      #180596 - 03/05/11 06:37 AM


450

Interesting exercise ?


For the number that would be shot (at game), would it be worth it ?

I do sometimes think that a lot of time and effort is spent on some things that may be better spent on others ???? Just my HO.


Re the 200 comment, how many shots are really taken out past 250 where it might start to have an effect.


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gryphon
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Re: Woodleigh Hydro as a cast bullet [Re: 500Nitro]
      #180597 - 03/05/11 06:55 AM

(Has anyone used Hydro's for distances over 200 yards to hunt with, or check drop on paper?)


the actual MOA achieved by the Fed Cart Co was 0ne inch @ 200 yards hence the 1/2 @ 100.
I was given this mail from John M who invented the bullet.


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FATBOY404
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Reged: 14/11/09
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Re: Woodleigh Hydro as a cast bullet [Re: gryphon]
      #180602 - 03/05/11 08:10 AM

I think the BC of a Hydro is around .20.

The answer would be,would you shoot a deer/whatever with a normal FMJ at 300 yards. Most people would say "no" so why would you do it with a Hydro ?.

No matter what your thoughts most people agree that the Hydro does cause more damage than a standard FMJ.

The Hydro works because it keeps that nose shape. Lead wouldn't hold it's shape so in my opinion it wouldn't work.

That is why Woodliegh are making the Hydro with a stainless steel tip now as well,indestructible.

--------------------
"WHATEVER BLOWS YOUR HAIR BACK"


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gryphon
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Re: Woodleigh Hydro as a cast bullet [Re: FATBOY404]
      #180612 - 03/05/11 10:57 AM

That is why Woodleigh are making the Hydro with a stainless steel tip now as well,indestructible.


I had one of those in my claw a few years ago and was very very impressed with them,a remarkable and innovative projectile for sure.


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DarylSModerator
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Re: Woodleigh Hydro as a cast bullet [Re: gryphon]
      #180621 - 03/05/11 01:01 PM

Would I not normally use a solid for deer at 300yards - no, you're right, absolutely right, but I would use a bullet that acted like a solid as well as acting like a soft because that was the bullet I carried due to it's abilities to do both jobs. I think the design allows it's use for both games, and is why Rod and I were so intrigued by them.

Yes - David - the cupped cavity could very easily be handled with a plug adnthe rest of the bullet, an easy lathe job for someone like Veral.

Perhaps if suggested that the cup was necessary, and this is the bullet I want you to make me, he might capitulate.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Con
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Reged: 24/05/04
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Loc: Victoria
Re: Woodleigh Hydro as a cast bullet [Re: FATBOY404]
      #180716 - 04/05/11 03:07 PM

Quote:

The Hydro works because it keeps that nose shape. Lead wouldn't hold it's shape so in my opinion it wouldn't work.




In testing of FN lead hard cast pills at speed (on AR Big Bores forum) ... the edges erode away until you end up with a kind of truncated cone shape.

The Hydro in comparison comes into its own as speed is increased. But bugger me they refuse to feed in my Ruger's built to wildcats.
Cheers...
Con


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gryphon
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Re: Woodleigh Hydro as a cast bullet [Re: Con]
      #180717 - 04/05/11 03:11 PM

seating them out too far?

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Altamaha
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Re: Woodleigh Hydro as a cast bullet [Re: gryphon]
      #192465 - 25/10/11 11:08 AM

Close but no cigar:

460 grain cast for the 458 Win Mag and other 458’s. Alloy is 20 pounds wheel weights to 1 pound Babbitt. The Babbitt I used is 90 per cent tin, 7 per cent antimony and 3 per cent copper. Gas checked, sized and lubed. I made the mold several years ago, thinking about making another with more flat area up front. Front grove is the crimp groove to keep the bullets in place under recoil (for the cartridges in the magazine that is). Front of the bullet ahead of the crimp groove is bore diameter.






Edited by CptCurl (20/03/12 11:59 AM)


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Altamaha
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Re: Woodleigh Hydro as a cast bullet [Re: DarylS]
      #192466 - 25/10/11 11:17 AM

Quote:

The cup-shaped cavity on the nose, which causes cavitation in the target material with a solid bullet, would prevent the mould blocks from opening. The rest of the design is OK by the appearance of it from the standpoint of making the mould- on a lathe or with a cherry.

As a flat nose with the rest of the design, it would work fine and give some minor expansion(dependingon alloy and hardness), but much care has to be practised when casting long bullets. They have a tendency to bend when contacting the folded towel or whatever is used to cushion the bulelts as they drop from the mould.




Real easy to cast a cup nose, just make up a mold similar to a hollow point mold with the removable nose pin.

Or, run the bullets through a lathe, use a round nose end mill in the tailstock chuck.

Or, drill the nose of the bullet and press in a stainless steel flat rivett.

Possibilities are endless.


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aromakr
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Re: Woodleigh Hydro as a cast bullet [Re: Altamaha]
      #192482 - 25/10/11 04:19 PM

Altmaha:
I have a mold almost a clone of that one, for my 9.3X74R it is extremely accurate. Hope to punch a hole in something this fall to see how it performs on flesh.
Bob


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Altamaha
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Re: Woodleigh Hydro as a cast bullet [Re: aromakr]
      #192508 - 26/10/11 12:23 AM

Quote:

Altmaha:
I have a mold almost a clone of that one, for my 9.3X74R it is extremely accurate. Hope to punch a hole in something this fall to see how it performs on flesh.
Bob




Post some photos of the bullets!

Edited by Altamaha (26/10/11 12:23 AM)


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aromakr
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Re: Woodleigh Hydro as a cast bullet [Re: Altamaha]
      #192525 - 26/10/11 05:27 AM

Altamaha:
I would if I could figure out how to post photo's on this site.
Bob


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9.3x57
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Re: Woodleigh Hydro as a cast bullet [Re: aromakr]
      #192536 - 26/10/11 02:37 PM

The Hydro does have a poor flight form. That is a ballistic fact. As for most shooting, who cares, since it takes place at shorter ranges than those where the poor form makes for noticeable degradation in performance.

No one has as yet made a better big bore cast bullet than the .458 caliber 402 grain {wheelweights} Lee Hollow Point. Front HP explodes and sheds and leaves a 300+ grain shaft to penetrate deeply. Just like a Nosler Partition.

Too bad they don't make it anymore. Nothing is like it.

I can only imagine a 550-600 grain version for the .450-class Nitro guns where the bullet could be started at 1700+ fps. An expanding bullet with near FMJ penetration. Good bloodletting near impact and a hole on the other side of whatever walks. You Africans and Aussies shooting all that heavy game would put poor Woodleigh out of business as you'd roll all your own for darn near free...



--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


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Rule303
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Re: Woodleigh Hydro as a cast bullet [Re: FATBOY404]
      #192551 - 26/10/11 07:07 PM

Quote:

I think the BC of a Hydro is around .20.



That is why Woodliegh are making the Hydro with a stainless steel tip now as well,indestructible.




Anti armour ammo comes to mind when you speak of a Hydro with a Stainless Tip. That round would take some stopping.

Con the hydros wont feed in my 35Sambar. Have to single load. Well I guess I can seat them out a bit further and drive them a bit harder.

Wonder if a lead one could be made hard enough not to bend on impact. If so one of these out of a 45-70 should be good Water Buffalo medicine.


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