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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Cast Bullets
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450_Ackley
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Designing a custom bullet mould
      #179834 - 24/04/11 09:47 AM

Thought I'd describe a bit of the process I use when I'm trying to design a new cast bullet to suit a particular rifle.

This one is for FATBOY404's 404 Jeffery.
He wanted to try some cast bullets in his rifle, to make practice a little cheaper than shooting Woodleighs all the time.
The first thing we did was to do a chamber cast of his rifle, the casts were done out of sulphur, as it is easier to use and shrinks very little, if anything at all. Two cast were made, as sulphur is brittle, and it wouldn't have been the first time I've broken one.
A piece of cleaning cloth was inserted from the muzzle until about an inch from the chamber mouth, we wanted to cast the throat and a bit of the rifling to measure.
The throat of this cast measures 0.424" in diameter, and the grooves measure 0.423", about what you would expect for a 404. As near as I can measure, the throat is 0.100" long, until the point where I can see rifling clearly.

Here is a pic of the casts.



I'm going to use Mountain Mould most likely for this one, as they have an online design program where I can play with diameters, weights, nose shapes, front band lengths etc.
This pic is one that took about 2 minutes to design, not saying it is what we will use, but you can get the idea.
It is a 425 grain bullet, without lube or gas-check.



I have made the gas check shank on this one a stepped shank, I like these shanks, as the check tends to crimp over the ledge, making it nearly impossible to get off.
The nose length on this one is 0.600", with a 0.090" front band, 10 thou shorter than the rifles throat, to allow a bit of clearance for fouling etc. It has 2 nice lube grooves, to carry plenty of lube, and requires about a 1~17" twist to stabilise. As cast diameter is 0.424", and the front band diameter is also 0.424". Both these measurements are able to be changed to suit. This bullet has a 70% meplat as well, I don't want to go much smaller, as the nose tends to be a little unsupported on these bigger bullets.
This is a start, when we have decided on a final shape, weight and other measurements, I'll post a progress report.

Kind Regards,
David.

Edited by CptCurl (09/05/11 08:49 PM)

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FATBOY404
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Re: Designing a custom bullet mould [Re: 450_Ackley]
      #179842 - 24/04/11 11:57 AM

Looking good Dave.
Good photo's,you can see the rifling clearly.

If anybody has any comments as to bullet design for my 404 for hunting purposes,I'm sure 450_Ackley wont mind some advice.

Thanks again Dave.

--------------------
"WHATEVER BLOWS YOUR HAIR BACK"

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CHAPUISARMES
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Re: Designing a custom bullet mould [Re: FATBOY404]
      #179846 - 24/04/11 01:07 PM

Hi Neale, Dave,

As this is a 'Solid' cast and you have had great success with the Hydro's, why not replicate the general design?? just a thought as the shape is a 'Killer' without firing it....

Cheers Mate,

Jeff

.

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450_Ackley
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Re: Designing a custom bullet mould [Re: FATBOY404]
      #179858 - 24/04/11 05:52 PM

Quote:

Looking good Dave.
Good photo's,you can see the rifling clearly.

If anybody has any comments as to bullet design for my 404 for hunting purposes,I'm sure 450_Ackley wont mind some advice.

Thanks again Dave.




I need all the help I can get, believe me.

DC

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Perry
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Re: Designing a custom bullet mould [Re: 450_Ackley]
      #179945 - 25/04/11 10:35 PM

Thanks for posting this thread David, very timely. I need to do a chamber casting and have been playing with the mould design software on Mountain Moulds website also. I was going to order some cerosafe, too expensive for the number of times I'm likely to use it. I'll trott off to the Chemist after the long weekend and buy some Sulpher. It should be cheap enough volume wise for me to do several chamber castings just in case I mess one up and not be drastically out of pocket.

--------------------
"To my deep mortification my father once said to me, 'You care for nothing but shooting, dogs and rat catching, and you will be a disgrace to yourself and all your family.' " -Charles Darwin

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DarylSModerator
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Re: Designing a custom bullet mould [Re: Perry]
      #179956 - 26/04/11 03:03 AM

Looks like a great hunting bullet to me. the width of the flat nose which helps immensely on game, seems a perfect match for the bullet's diameter.

The crimping groove on the gas check seating step, is something I've not seen before. The idea/reason for it is a good one, though. The position of the groove will have to closely match the make of GC's you're using, of course.

I find when casting WW alloys, I like a completely frosted bullet - evenly all over. I get more precise bullet measurements and complete filling of all corners of the bullets this way. A narrow groove, as on the GC bullet's shank, might benefit from increasing your melt's temp, David.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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450_Ackley
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Re: Designing a custom bullet mould [Re: DarylS]
      #179970 - 26/04/11 06:47 AM

Perry,
No need to go to the chemist for sulphur, too expensive.
Go to your local garden centre and look for powdered sulphur, or elemental sulphur. It should be 99% sulphur or higher. Try not to get the granular version.
It's used as a soil amendment to lower the ph of the soil.
Dusting sulphur is fine as well, but don't get wettable sulphur either, it's a fungicide and not as pure.

It's easy to find the right one, just get the highest %age of sulphur possible. The last one I bought was in a round screw top container, I think it had 500 grams in it and cost $10-00, haven't even made a dent in it yet, enough to do 50 odd casts or more I'm thinking.

It does stink something terrible while you are melting it, and it can catch fire, melt it slowly, low heat.
Oil the chamber and throat area lightly before you pour it in, makes it easier to get out later.

Daryl, agree on the frosting, I know the books tell you they should be nice and shiny, but they fill the mould and are much more consistent dimension wise if they are a little frosty. I've never had a problem with frosty bullets.

Glad you like the bullet design, I've got a few of Dan's moulds with the step-shank, best thing I've come across to keep gas-checks on. When you select the gas-check version on his software, it states that it is cut for either Hornady or Gator-checks. Personally I use nothing but Gator-checks now, slightly thicker than Hornady's and guarantee a good crimp on. His GC shank is very nicely dimensioned.
You can also specify the lead you are going to use, and the mould will be very slightly cut differently to suit the alloy.

Jeff, It would be nearly impossible to cut a mould like a Hydro, the unfortunate part of bullet design with lead bullets is that they need to fall from the mould easily when cast, and not have too many sharp corners.
I'd like to be able to have someone do it though, it would be a good project to work on, but I'll bet the shape is patented, which puts a rather quick end to it.

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FATBOY404
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Re: Designing a custom bullet mould [Re: DarylS]
      #179971 - 26/04/11 06:49 AM

Daryl S.
You are the sort of bloke I want to hear from.
Is a hollow point cast bullet for hunting any advantage ?.
What changes would you make to the bullet if you were designing a 404 400 grain + bullet for hunting ?.

Cheers Neale.

--------------------
"WHATEVER BLOWS YOUR HAIR BACK"

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Perry
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Re: Designing a custom bullet mould [Re: FATBOY404]
      #179985 - 26/04/11 09:04 AM

Thanks for the tip Daryl. I will drop into the Garden section of the local Hardware and pick myself up some Sulpher. I'll wait till the wind is blowing towards my mongrel neighboor before I melt it down

regards Jacko

--------------------
"To my deep mortification my father once said to me, 'You care for nothing but shooting, dogs and rat catching, and you will be a disgrace to yourself and all your family.' " -Charles Darwin

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450_Ackley
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Re: Designing a custom bullet mould [Re: Perry]
      #180724 - 04/05/11 05:31 PM

A little more to add to this post now.
I've made a neck expander die for the project as you can see in the below photo, the expander section is polished to .423" and a 20 degree expander angle.
I've had my local gunsmith soften the bullet sizing die, polish it out to .424" and re-harden. I also made a fitted pin for the sizer die as well.
This mould is a CBE one and has tended to cast a tiny bit smaller than I wanted at .423". A 44 cal gas-check fits on the shank nicely and crimps in place tightly, as you would expect, being 6 thou oversize. A run through the sizer die just applies lube, no sizing takes place, which might be a help, might be a problem. Shooting them will soon see.
The other photo is a few sized and lubed with LBT Blue soft and ready to load and shoot.

Regards,
David.





Edited by CptCurl (09/05/11 08:50 PM)

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FATBOY404
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Re: Designing a custom bullet mould [Re: 450_Ackley]
      #180734 - 04/05/11 07:07 PM

So Dave do I keep the sizeing die forever and use it on any future moulded bullets (only one ever needed) ?.
You certainly are getting the hang of that lathe.
Looks good.

What do they weigh finnished mate ?.

--------------------
"WHATEVER BLOWS YOUR HAIR BACK"

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450_Ackley
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Re: Designing a custom bullet mould [Re: FATBOY404]
      #180739 - 04/05/11 07:52 PM

Neale,
Yes, one sizing lasts forever, you never need to buy another one, but you will most likely add more to the collection over the years, as the cast bullet bugs bites hard, I think I'm now up to about 70 something moulds, 3 lube sizers and 20 odd sizing dies, along with endless top punches.
Don't ever want to think about the $ I've sunk into it.

Sorry, forgot to put the finished weight on the last post as well, ready to shoot, they are close enough to 440 grains.

Regards,
David.

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FATBOY404
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Re: Designing a custom bullet mould [Re: 450_Ackley]
      #180742 - 04/05/11 08:29 PM

They look like they will penetrate into next week.

What velocity will I need to make Group 2 with these comfortably ?.

Am I pushing my luck for a load with 2209 ?.

--------------------
"WHATEVER BLOWS YOUR HAIR BACK"

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450_Ackley
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Re: Designing a custom bullet mould [Re: FATBOY404]
      #180744 - 04/05/11 08:47 PM

About 2050 fps will get you over the line with a 440 grain bullet.
75-76 grains of AR 2209 should get you there.

DC

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DarylSModerator
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Re: Designing a custom bullet mould [Re: 450_Ackley]
      #180772 - 05/05/11 02:59 AM

A .28 cal. flat nose might help some for a hunting bullet.

Some guys like to anneal gas checks before resizing them to reduce springing. I've done a whack of mine. Easy enough, heat a quantity of them red hot using a torch or some sort, then dump the container of them into water.

The bullet shape above is the standard used in the buffalo ctgs. that worked so well on US game. Of course, velocities were lower and the bullets were very soft, but they did penetrate - times killing (or wounding) 2 buffalo per shot when they were close packed in herds and milling.

David's bullet appears to be almost identical in shape (GC, though) to the Lyman #457125 bullet, the original 500gr. grooved military bullet that worked so well for long range shooting as well as for hunting. It's design has proven itself over and over in competition on game, then and still today. It is my favourite mould for my Sharps.

It would be better for hunting if flat nosed, but works fine the way it is - always has.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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FATBOY404
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Re: Designing a custom bullet mould [Re: DarylS]
      #180790 - 05/05/11 07:38 AM

Thanks again Daryl.
Remember this is a borrowed mould to see what weight my 404j will shoot before designing one.

This mould is only one cavity so my friendship may wear a little thin if we continue to use it.

Daryl.
Have a look at the first post and the bullet that 450 designed and tell me what you would change please.

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"WHATEVER BLOWS YOUR HAIR BACK"

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eagle27
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Re: Designing a custom bullet mould [Re: FATBOY404]
      #180826 - 05/05/11 06:52 PM

The bullet you have designed and drawn is not too dissimilar to my own 400gr .404 cast bullet shown below. It shoots well and I have taken some goats and deer with it many years ago. Performed well although I never recovered any. Recovered one cast in Lyman #2 alloy after firing into a clay bank and it mushroomed to about halfway without loosing any lead.



Edited by CptCurl (09/05/11 08:50 PM)

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FATBOY404
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Re: Designing a custom bullet mould [Re: eagle27]
      #180827 - 05/05/11 07:24 PM

Eagle27.
It looks good.
Is it normal to have that many "drive bands"/ lube grooves ?.

Does it feed well ?.

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eagle27
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Re: Designing a custom bullet mould [Re: FATBOY404]
      #180830 - 05/05/11 07:59 PM

Quote:

Eagle27.
It looks good.
Is it normal to have that many "drive bands"/ lube grooves ?.

Does it feed well ?.



I had the mould custom made by Richard Hoch in 1978 but can't recall what instructions I gave if any, other than the weight I wanted in #2 alloy. I suppose the number of drive bands mirrors many of the homogenous bullets available on the market now although of course they weren't around back then. The mould actually throws a plain base bullet but I get superb accuracy by using a gas check. Just spin a shoulder for the 44 cal check on the lathe. Does not take long to do a whole batch using a collet in the chuck to hold the bullets.

They feed perfectly from the magazine in the Mauser.

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DarylSModerator
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Re: Designing a custom bullet mould [Re: DarylS]
      #180855 - 06/05/11 01:06 AM

Quote:

Looks like a great hunting bullet to me. The width of the flat nose which helps immensely on game, seems a perfect match for the bullet's diameter.

The crimping groove on the gas check seating step, is something I've not seen before. The idea/reason for it is a good one, though. The position of the groove will have to closely match the make of GC's you're using, of course.

I find when casting WW alloys, I like a completely frosted bullet - evenly all over. I get more precise bullet measurements and complete filling of all corners of the bullets this way. A narrow groove, as on the GC bullet's shank, might benefit from increasing your melt's temp, David.



I would change nothing, except maybe a slightly smaller flat nose - maybe.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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DarylSModerator
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Re: Designing a custom bullet mould [Re: DarylS]
      #180858 - 06/05/11 01:19 AM

The difference between the last two bullets shown in this thread, is the one posted by David, the borrowed mould, is a nose or bore riding design, while the Richard Hoch mould casts a short nose, long body or shank bullet, hense it has more grease grooves.

Both are accurate designs but have different requirements to shoot well. The bore riding bullet needs to be seated out which exposes grease grooves or be shot in a rifle with short throat, so it's nose can be supported by the lands which starts the bullet straight. The long body or long shank bullet can get way without putting grease in exposed grooves, so they don't pickup dirt and lint in pockets, etc. Because it is longer, allowing seating out the full length of the leade or freebore, it is easier to bump up against the lands, yet still have bullet in the case. With the better lubes today, it's possible to get away with only 2 or 3 narrow grooves lubed.

The long nose, bore riding design has the potential to be more accurate than the long shank bullet, but it's potential only - not always fact. There are devotees of both designs.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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VonGruff
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Re: Designing a custom bullet mould [Re: DarylS]
      #180873 - 06/05/11 04:33 AM

I also had a Hoch mould made for my 404 but I had mine made for a 350gn bore rider so it would have the same OAL as a 400gn Woodleigh with the nose flat nosed for expansion initiation and radiused for actual land engagement. I chose 350gn because it was not going to be used on DG so 350gn was suficient for the lighter animals I intended it for and paper - plinking of course.I can run it at 1400fps with 20gn Red Dot through 1900fps with 63gn 2209 up to 2365fps with 74gn 2208 and 2447fps with 88gn 2209. This is an accurate boolit at all these velocities and the various alloys.

Shown here. Mine is the lubed and GC sample in the middle with Eagle 27's 400gn plain base beside it.



This is 5 shots at 55yds with aperture sights with it at 2416fps over 87gn 2209 HT 90/10 ww/lino



And this is what it leaves behind as evidence that it has been through a goat even though it was the plinking load of 50/50 ww/Pb at 1400fps.



Von Gruff.

--------------------
Von Gruff.

Exodus 20:1-17

Acts 4:10-12

Edited by CptCurl (09/05/11 08:51 PM)

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FATBOY404
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Re: Designing a custom bullet mould [Re: VonGruff]
      #180891 - 06/05/11 09:03 AM

VonGruff.
You have to be happy with that.

Do they shoot that low compared to your 400 grain Woodleigh's.

Daryl.
Dave and I were thinking the same thing.
Maybe a smaller nose to get them to feed reliably.

--------------------
"WHATEVER BLOWS YOUR HAIR BACK"

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450_Ackley
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Re: Designing a custom bullet mould [Re: FATBOY404]
      #180901 - 06/05/11 11:11 AM

How would this one look, I've upped the weight to 450 grains, to copy the 450 grain Jacketed bullets that Fatboy has. I have also lengthened the nose a little and changed the meplat to 50%. Made it a 3 lube groove bullet instead of 2 groove as well.



Regards,
David.

Edited by CptCurl (09/05/11 08:51 PM)

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VonGruff
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Re: Designing a custom bullet mould [Re: FATBOY404]
      #180918 - 06/05/11 03:22 PM

Quote:

VonGruff.
You have to be happy with that.

Do they shoot that low compared to your 400 grain Woodleighs



I had a few different front sight blades and was more interested in getting the loads sorted at that stage. Some of the faster loads shoot on the Woodleighs bead, while I use a blade for the slower loads. There is only a couple of inches in all of them so for plinking at steel plate they are close enough.

Von Gruff.

--------------------
Von Gruff.

Exodus 20:1-17

Acts 4:10-12

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