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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Cast Bullets

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450_Ackley
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Reged: 06/02/03
Posts: 583
Loc: Darling Downs, Qld Australia
416 cast bullets
      #178804 - 11/04/11 06:02 PM

Here's a picture of 5 of my 416 calibre cast bullets.
On the left is a 290 grain GC NEI bullet, next is a 340 grain LBT bullet, the third one is a 350 grain RCBS bullet, fourth one is a 410 grain NEI bullet and the fifth is a 445 grain CBE bullet.
I have tried all of these in both my 416 Taylor, and my 416 Ruger. My wife shoots the 416 Ruger and the LBT bullet loaded with 23.5 grain of Trail Boss, they do around 1400 fps and with the open sights, shoot groups about 1.25" at 50 yards.

Regards,
David



Edited by CptCurl (09/05/11 08:58 PM)


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tophet1
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Reged: 15/09/07
Posts: 1873
Loc: NSW, Australia
Re: 416 cast bullets [Re: 450_Ackley]
      #178806 - 11/04/11 06:09 PM

I've got the 350 RCBS mold and quite a few cast. Do you use gas checks with that load of Trail Boss ?

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Rule303
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Reged: 05/07/09
Posts: 5061
Loc: Woodford Qld
Re: 416 cast bullets [Re: tophet1]
      #178811 - 11/04/11 06:45 PM

450 and John, when I am back I am going to have to get some of the cast bullets off you to try in my Rigby. John I will also be after load data from you.

450 how do the heavier pills go in your Taylor?


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tophet1
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Re: 416 cast bullets [Re: Rule303]
      #178812 - 11/04/11 06:51 PM

I've got heaps spare mate. All weighed to within 1 grain of each other.

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FATBOY404
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Reged: 14/11/09
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Re: 416 cast bullets [Re: Rule303]
      #178813 - 11/04/11 06:51 PM

What does "LBT","CBE" and "NEI" stand for ?.

With heavier bullets,do you need more lube ?.

--------------------
"WHATEVER BLOWS YOUR HAIR BACK"


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450_Ackley
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Reged: 06/02/03
Posts: 583
Loc: Darling Downs, Qld Australia
Re: 416 cast bullets [Re: FATBOY404]
      #178817 - 11/04/11 07:08 PM

John,
Yep I use a gas-check on every bullet that can accept one!
No matter what the speed.

Rule 303, no problem sending you some bullets, PM your address across and I'll get some going.
The heavier bullets do quite well out of the Taylor, but you need to "get up them" a bit more, my barrel is a 15" twist, and with the 445 grain CBE, they don't keyhole, but must be on the edge of stability, as they don't shoot as well as everything else.

Neale, LBT stands for "Lead Bullet Technology" a company owned by Veral Smith in Idaho, he makes bullet moulds, top punches, a really good book on getting real speed out of cast bullets, and a very nice lead hardness tester. His bullet designs are supposed to be very good on game, especially his WFN (wide flat nose) designs. Mainly makes aluminium moulds, they are made using a tracer lathe.

NEI stands for North East Industrial, a mould maker, now in Texas. The company was founded by Walt Melander, a very knowledgable cast bullet designer and mould maker. He has now passed on, and his son-in-law and daughter now own and run the business. He makes mainly aluminium moulds, cherry cut, in lots of odd calibres and designs.

CBE stands for "Cast Bullet Engineering", an Australian company in Sydney, owned and run by Jim Allison. Makes brass moulds in heaps of calibres and types. Where I got my Bore Gun mould from. Moulds are made using a cherry, makes top punches to suit using the same cherry for an exact match.

I normally fill all the lube grooves up with lube, just because they are there, but if I had to seat a bullet with lube grooves exposed, and I was carrying them in the paddock, then I would not lube the exposed ones, as it might pick up dust or dirt and potentially scratch the barrel. For the range, I'm not worried about a lube groove or two being exposed.
If I'm getting a nice moist "lube star" on the muzzle of the rifle, then the lube is about right, and doing it's job properly.

Regards,
DC


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FATBOY404
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Re: 416 cast bullets [Re: 450_Ackley]
      #178823 - 11/04/11 07:39 PM

Thanks David.

While you are running hot. A post on cleaning a lead fouled barrel would help me as well as some of the less experienced cast shooters on here.

--------------------
"WHATEVER BLOWS YOUR HAIR BACK"


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DarylSModerator
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Re: 416 cast bullets [Re: FATBOY404]
      #178863 - 12/04/11 03:45 AM

Not trying to steel your thunder, David - this is merely what I do. I also want to know how you remove lead, etc.

I shoot cast too, from .22 cal. to .69 cal. - since about 1972. This is what I use for lead fouling, which happens less fequently now except when testing lubes, and loads.

Birchwood Casey sells a lead fouling solvent that works fairly well. I use it with patches only, no bronze brush - I really don't like them, but do have a use for them, noted further on.

Lead-Out patches - yellow in colour also work VERY well. almost scary stuff - WHAT IS IT???????? that merely wipes melted-on lead off the steel????? Lead that ignors brushes? See what I mean. It's incredible stuff - is it dangerous???? Will your body absorb it through your skin? Will it mutate future offspring? It didn't effect mine (much), so I guess it's OK. It is good if you can find it.

Now, my first use FOR a bronze brush.

Curly Kate kitchen scrubbers - made of spun and wrapped copper wire works wonders on lead without harming your bore. Snip a couple wires, pull the strands out and wrapp them around a bronze bristle brush, wet with a powder solvent and scrub out the lead.

0000 steel wool wrapped around a bronze brush also works to remove lead fouling without harming the bore or rifling. I use less steel wool, more Curly Kates, especially in softer steel barrels.

I normally don't use bronze brushs, except for undersized or worn out ones when holding onto something to assist lead removal, ie: steel wool or copper strands.

Lubes:

One way to tell if you have 'enough' lube, once you have a good lube, is if there is leading at the muzzle. Leading at the muzzle only, usually means not enough quantity of a good lube.

Leading at the breech and full length of the tube tells you the lube is not good enough for THAT job. Remember, leading at the muzzle only, tells you you don't have enough lube.

Total innacuracy or very poor accuracy usually means your bullet is too soft for the pressure generated by that load and is slumping too much and not perfectly. The alloy should allow some slight slumping in order to seal and maintain pressure to ensure a seal, or there will be 'slight' wash leading in an almost perfect load.

Large bores are very much easier to load for than small bores ie; .40 cal. and larger. Too, the pressures are usually lower and thus softer alloys that actually work well for hunting, can be used in large bores due to these lower pressures. I've had very good results from straight WW alloys here - standard antimony/lead/arsenic mix - NO ZINC - the addition of the WW's arsenic allows them to be hardenable to about Brinel 34 where pure lead is 5bn, CDN WW is about 12bn, Linotype is 22bn, Monotype is 24bn & finally dead soft copper is 35bn or 36bn, (I think). I have driven straight WW bullets in .45 and .50 cal. to 2,200fps and obtained 1" to 1 1/2" groups at 100 meters with them(off bags with scoped bolt gun or tang mounted peep & aperture sighted single shots). Straight WW alloys make good hunting bullets for large, heavy game, giving some expansion and deep penetration.

A hardened WW bullet is less susceptable to breaking up and gives deeper penetration than a bullet harded only with antimony. High ratios of antimony makes bullets very brittle and they can break up badly on impact.

WW really are a blesssing - cheap and hardenable for a variety of missions. Tin/lead alloys cannot be hardened nor can they be as hard as antimony and lead alloys. Tin is quite ductile in an alloy with lead - many match shooters like tin/lead for their alloys as the casting qualities are much better than antimony/lead alloys & they shoot well in their low pressure guns. High pressure cast bullet shooters use antimony/lead/tin alloys some with hardening, some without. 10:1 lead to tin is about as hard as a tin lead alloy can become. The addition of more tin will not harden the mix substancially - apparently, - but tin can be quite costly. Usually 50/50 bar solder is used for mixing in lead. Tin/lead mixes can make very good hunting bullets as they maintain their hardness longer with age and are ductile enough to expand, yet will hold together and penetrate fairly well.

Heat treated allows become softer with age. Straight WW alloys become slightly harder with age to about Brinell 13 for CDN WW. US WW have been listed as brinel 9 - tha't soft, but may have included some of the stick-on alloy wheel pure lead weight strips - be aware - the addition of pure lead stick on weights will soften your mix. Do not use WW with a Z on them.

Caution - Z marked WW are zinc which will destroy your alloy - if added to a melt, it then casts poorly and some have said it will actually go into the steel of a pot and foul it for future casting as well. Don't use Z marked weights, which are becoming much more prevelent nowadays with lead bans.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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450_Ackley
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Reged: 06/02/03
Posts: 583
Loc: Darling Downs, Qld Australia
Re: 416 cast bullets [Re: DarylS]
      #178867 - 12/04/11 06:35 AM

Daryl,
You are not stealing any thunder, the idea of this forum was for all of us to contribute and share the knowledge we all have, to make all of us better shots, or to load more accurate ammunition without the mistakes.

And your post is exactly what we needed.

I too have found my only use for bronze brushes in removing lead from leaded barrels, don't use them for anything else.
I'm also not afraid to get into a barrel with a bit of 0000 steel wool, most people would faint at the thought, but it does work.
Since changing over to LBT Blue soft lube, I don't really have leading as a major problem anymore, but occasionally I will get a few lead shavings around the throat area.
I use a homemade solvent called "Ed's Red", which some will be familiar with, it contains Acetone solvent, which reportedly can get between barrel steel and lead, and it simply wipes out, which it does do.
If I'm really lazy and in a hurry, I just shoot two jacketed loads through the firearm, that gets lead out as well!
My 12 bore gun that has a rifled barrel that leads quite badly, which will be the subject of another topic, in it I will break out the good old Lewis Lead Remover, which uses a very thin copper mesh circle and is pushed or pulled through the bore, removing slivers of lead like you wouldn't believe.

I agree with everything you have written about lube, lead hardness and big bores being easier to get to shoot cast bullets in than small bores. The most frustrating cartridge I've ever tried cast bullets in was a 222 Rem, talk about pulling your hair out!

Regards,
David.


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Rule303
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Reged: 05/07/09
Posts: 5061
Loc: Woodford Qld
Re: 416 cast bullets [Re: 450_Ackley]
      #178893 - 12/04/11 07:41 PM

John, thanks mate.

450_Ackley, Thanks a heap and PM sent.

Neale, good thinking.

Daryl and David, thanks for the insight on cleaning lead out of barrels.

Cheers

Greg


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DarylSModerator
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Re: 416 cast bullets [Re: Rule303]
      #178916 - 13/04/11 02:31 AM

cheers

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Reggie
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Reged: 02/03/10
Posts: 36
Loc: Southeastern Louisiana, USA
Re: 416 cast bullets [Re: 450_Ackley]
      #178985 - 13/04/11 03:28 PM

Hi, David -

Good to see that you are over here (Nitro Forums), too.

We have been using the 350gr. RCBS cast almost exclusively in the .416 Taylor. The mix is 9-parts WW and 1-part Plumbers Lead (also known as 50/50, or Plumbers Solder). Using AA-2015 powder (sorry, I know you can't get this one down there) they move out right at 1800fps, are phenomenally accurate and (so far) show absolutely NO signs of leading whatsoever.

Take it easy...

Reggie


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Paul_416
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Reged: 23/11/08
Posts: 28
Loc: Brisbane, Australia
Re: 416 cast bullets [Re: Reggie]
      #178991 - 13/04/11 05:06 PM

Hi David

Thanks for your interesting post. I have a CBE mould and was going to try out some cast projectiles at Millmerran this weekend, unfortunately time has defeated me. I've been using Ed's Red for years on everything from blackpowder in Whitworths and Martini Henrys to corrosive 8mm. It has never failed to do its job.
Regards
Paul


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450_Ackley
.375 member


Reged: 06/02/03
Posts: 583
Loc: Darling Downs, Qld Australia
Re: 416 cast bullets [Re: Paul_416]
      #178992 - 13/04/11 05:32 PM

Paul,
My pleasure entirely regarding the thread, I'm hoping to keep the category rolling along with different topics whenever I get a spare moment.

Did you hear that the SSAA complex at Millmerran no longer supports any shooting other than registered SSAA matches. The days are now gone where you can roll up on a weekday, sight a rifle in and keep going. It will be shut during the week now and only open weekends.

Please be sure to post your results back here on N.E. , you'll need pictures too if you can!!!


Reggie, I've been here on N.E since 2003, and can happily say that I no longer post anywhere else.

Regards,
David.


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450_Ackley
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Reged: 06/02/03
Posts: 583
Loc: Darling Downs, Qld Australia
Re: 416 cast bullets [Re: 450_Ackley]
      #178994 - 13/04/11 05:43 PM

And now for a few selected loads for the 416 Taylor using some of the above cast bullets.

My best load for the RCBS bullet at the moment is 25 grains of Blue Dot, Fed 215M primers, reformed Hornady 458 cases.
This load shot groups around the inch mark at 100 metres and chrono'd at 1526 fps.

The load with the LBt bullet was 38 grains of Reloder 7, giving a velocity of 1544 fps.

The NEI round nose bullet performed best with 45 grains of AR 2206H (H4895) at a velocity of 1556 fps.

To start with, I'll try a load around the 1500-1600 fps mark, most rifles seem to perform well around that mark and you can tell what's likely to happen at that speed. The rifle seems to go well without any leading issues at that speed, not that you would expect leading either.
When time permits, I'm going to try to get a more respectable velocity out of it, I'd like to get a 400 grainer around the 2200 fps mark if I can. I've had 350 grainers doing 2350 fps from my 500 Jeffery without leading.

My lube of choice on smokeless loads is LBT Blue soft, and I only use gas checks from Larry Blackmon at Gator-Checks.

For interest, my jacketed load in this rifle is 66 grains of AR 2208 (Varget) with a 400 grain Woodleigh, doing 2362 fps average. It has a 26" barrel BTW.

As usual, these loads are safe in my rifle etc, etc.

Anyone got any other 416 calibre cast bullet loads, not only for a Taylor, but any 416 cal cartidge?

Regards,
David.


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Paul_416
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Reged: 23/11/08
Posts: 28
Loc: Brisbane, Australia
Re: 416 cast bullets [Re: 450_Ackley]
      #179000 - 13/04/11 07:16 PM

Hi David

As I understand it, as long as two licensed shooters are on the Millmerran range, there is no problem. The manager who was licensed has retired/resigned.
The 416 will probably be held over till next shoot.

Paul


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Paul_416
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Reged: 23/11/08
Posts: 28
Loc: Brisbane, Australia
Re: 416 cast bullets [Re: 450_Ackley]
      #179325 - 18/04/11 11:40 AM

David, was it you who did well with a 300 H & H in the Big Game Postal?
Paul


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450_Ackley
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Reged: 06/02/03
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Re: 416 cast bullets [Re: Paul_416]
      #179340 - 18/04/11 05:51 PM

Paul,
Pretty sure it would have been me, haven't seen the scores yet, but I'm about the only regular shooter with a 300H&H for African Plains Rifle.
Actually wasn't a good shoot for me, had a few crappy shots at 200.

David.


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DarylSModerator
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Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26997
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Re: 416 cast bullets [Re: Reggie]
      #179379 - 19/04/11 12:26 AM

Quote:

Hi, David -

Good to see that you are over here (Nitro Forums), too.

We have been using the 350gr. RCBS cast almost exclusively in the .416 Taylor. The mix is 9-parts WW and 1-part Plumbers Lead (also known as 50/50, or Plumbers Solder). Using AA-2015 powder (sorry, I know you can't get this one down there) they move out right at 1800fps, are phenomenally accurate and (so far) show absolutely NO signs of leading whatsoever.

Take it easy...

Reggie




Oops Reggis - minor corection if I may - easy mistake - "Plumbers Lead" is 98.6% to 99.6% pure lead lead. 50/50 solder is 50% pure lead, 50% tin. I've never heard the term Plumbers Solder, but it probably would be the 50/50 solder as you noted - lead/tin mix noted.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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DarylSModerator
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Reged: 10/08/05
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Re: 416 cast bullets [Re: DarylS]
      #179380 - 19/04/11 12:44 AM

As I understand the powder, Trail Boss can be loaded to maximum is about any ctg. case, using a full case to the bottom of the seated bullet - no compression - according to Hodgdon, who owns and sells IMR powders. 70% of the full case charge (no compression) is a starting load.

An example of how much powder it takes to fill a case is

Thus any .416 ctg. can shoot cast or jacketed bullets with Trail Boss - a very light weight, bulky powder.

The velocities developed are 'squib-type' loads with most cast bullets and ctgs. in the 900fps to 1,300fps range. Larger cases develope higher speeds, ie: a .416 Rigby would probably develop higher speeds than a .416 Taylor, merely due to it's greater capacity.

In the larger case to bore size ratios (.300 mags w/jacketed), you could expect speeds up to about 1,800 with max. loads. The pressures generated are very low for bolt actioned rounds.

The real plus with this powder is it's ease of loading, low report and light recoil. In many guns, it shoots with amazing accuracy using lead or jacketed bullets.

My .375 Wildcat generated 1,345fps with a 310gr. FN bullet and produced 1 1/2" accuracy at 100 meters. Loading was as simple as holding a bullet against the side of the case to see the level of the bullet's base against the side of the ctg, then dumping enough powder to come to that level then seating a plain based bullet - done. These shot right on the scope's 300 yard zero line - Burris scope. Seems to me the case held only 18 to 20 gr. of TB powder. It's an 80gr. water capacity case. A .45/70 case holds around 16gr. with 385gr. bullets.

My .17AH held 3.7gr. and put 25gr. Hornady HP's out at 1,785fp. giving 3/8" groups at 50 yards and striking right on the 'plex' reticle, scope set at 12X.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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450_Ackley
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Reged: 06/02/03
Posts: 583
Loc: Darling Downs, Qld Australia
Re: 416 cast bullets [Re: DarylS]
      #179402 - 19/04/11 06:44 AM

Daryl,
when Trailboss was first seen in Australia, the first cartridge I tried it in was a 45-70, and was disappointed at the lack of velocity I was getting.
I kept trying it in other big bores, Thankfully I did, because I'm now a convert to it, seems to work well in everything I've tried it in, even a 500 Jeffery, shot excellent groups, and does shoot nicely in every calibre I've tried it in. I use it in my wifes 257 Roberts with a little 80 grn cast bullet.
the other thing I like is that the cases come out clean, no more sooty cases (higher pressure?)
It's really good if you are happy with the 1400-1600 fps range, which for me and what I want to do with cast bullets is perfectly OK.

Regards,
David.


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mauserand9mm
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Reged: 03/09/09
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Re: 416 cast bullets [Re: 450_Ackley]
      #179415 - 19/04/11 10:26 AM

My 405gn 458WM Trailboss loads are supposed to be subsonic (1040-1080fps, I haven't crono'ed them though) and certainly are very quiet, which makes them sound a bit weird at the range. If they weren't hard cast I might try them on game larger than rabbits.

I heard stories (maybe urban legend) of a guy in Victoria, many years ago, getting caught and prosecuted for using a silenced 45/70 (ie sub-sonic loads) to hunt deer down that way. He broke a few rules. This suggests that a cast projectile of suitable hardness (or softness) in this calibre and velocity will handle this type of game - does this sound correct?


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450_Ackley
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Reged: 06/02/03
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Re: 416 cast bullets [Re: mauserand9mm]
      #179452 - 19/04/11 08:15 PM

I believe your urban legend to be correct, if I can recall correctly, I might have, sort of, could have heard similar stories in other states of Australia as well.

Absolutely no reason why a cast bullet, and it certainly would not need to be cast hard, would not work well for deer sized game, trajectory at longer ranges might be hard to guess though, but practice could sort that out.

Regards,
David.


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mauserand9mm
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Re: 416 cast bullets [Re: 450_Ackley]
      #179455 - 19/04/11 09:13 PM

Yes, I guess it's similar to the performance of those (dirty old) black powder bang sticks that they used to use many years ago (some still do), when men were men and 45 calibre was a girl's gun

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DarylSModerator
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Re: 416 cast bullets [Re: mauserand9mm]
      #179473 - 20/04/11 07:35 AM

Many of the BP buffalo guns went sub-sonic prior to the bullet impacting the buffalo. This did not prevent the bullet from exiting the fist buffalo to kill another behind or beside it. There are many such-letters of Sharps, Remintons or Ballards doing this, which have been re-printed in books written about 'those' times - wee, for instance Frank Sellers book on the Sharps Rifles.

Due to the relatively small case capacity of the .45/70, not enough TB can be loaded to get good supersonic loads, as-is the outcome of the larger cases.

A pure lead or lamsot pure lead bullet starting at 1,000fps will be a good killer of deer to well over 100yards or whatever range you can place one properly.

The original factory load for a .45/70 put a 500gr. almost pure lead bullet out the 32" bl. of the rifle at about 1,210fps. From a Carbine's 24" bl. it could have been about or at least 100fps slower. It was capable of exiting a bullalo at 200 to 400yards, according to the letters of buffalo hunters, long after it had gone subsonic - about 50 yards out.

At what range do you think 'Ol Elmer's 245gr. Keith bullets went subsonic after being launched at 1,200fps from a 4" .44SPL? - about the same or slightly closer. Maybe 50yards for his 22gr. 2400 from his engraved M29 in 4". Every one he put through a mule deer, exited - Elmer wasn't prone to shooting little 200pound spike bucks, btw. What range - witnessed at 600yards! So what if it was only 400? I've shot my own 4" with 275gr. SWC at 1,200fps at 400yards and I know dang well I can hit a deer at that range with it & I am certainly No Elmer Keith. I"m also quite sure they'd probably exit.

Now, put a 500gr. .458" bullet out at 1,000fps to 1,100fps to maintain subsonic flight and go shoot a deer - or buffalo, just keep 'em inside 300yards, just to be sure of an accurate shot. Express sights help.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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