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JusticeTrimble
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Reged: 25/04/07
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Loc: Louisville, KY.
Is the 500/416 dead?
      #178268 - 03/04/11 09:31 AM

Hey Guys,

I've been doing a little research on the boards and in comparison to the other popular DR calibers, I'm not finding that much information or support of the 500/416 NE. Is it dead? Was is just a "splash in the pan"? Or, is it here to stay?

What are your thoughts?

This ought to be good!!!


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500Nitro
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Re: Is the 500/416 dead? [Re: JusticeTrimble]
      #178269 - 03/04/11 09:32 AM


Intereting question. Looking around, I would say Yes.

IMHO, a cartridge that probably should have got off the ground
but now all the manufacturers are into the old NE cartridges,
I doubt it will.


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mickey
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Reged: 05/01/03
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Re: Is the 500/416 dead? [Re: 500Nitro]
      #178270 - 03/04/11 09:56 AM

And good riddance. A cartridge that offered nothing but being new in an old traditional niche.

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.


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DarylS
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Re: Is the 500/416 dead? [Re: mickey]
      #178274 - 03/04/11 10:31 AM

It should have caught on with the 'lowest presssure at any cost' crowd, but didn't.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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mickey
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Re: Is the 500/416 dead? [Re: DarylS]
      #178276 - 03/04/11 10:53 AM

Daryl

It didn't matter what the pressure was as it was only available in new rifles. Krieghoff mostly. I doubt if anyone buying this cartridge in a Krieghoff had any notion what pressure means in a Double rifle, or cared.

A gimmick cartridge, like so many of the new ones being flocked to shooters nowadays that offer marginal improvement at the cost of buying a new rifle..

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.


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AkMike
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Re: Is the 500/416 dead? [Re: mickey]
      #178277 - 03/04/11 10:56 AM

Quote:

And good riddance. A cartridge that offered nothing but being new in an old traditional niche.




Very much like the current crop of "New and Improved" short mags,375's and 416's. I call them the Magnum of the Month. Just made for someone that just has to have the latest and greatest touted by the gun rag writers.

--------------------
"When you see that in order to produce, you need to obtain permission from men who produce nothing; when you see that money is flowing to those who deal not in goods, but in favors; you may know that your society is doomed." Ayn Rand


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500Nitro
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Re: Is the 500/416 dead? [Re: mickey]
      #178278 - 03/04/11 10:58 AM


Mickey

I agree with your thought "like so many of the new ones being flocked to shooters nowadays that offer marginal improvement at the cost of buying a new rifle.. "


It seemed to come out at the time 416 in anything was all the rage. Although only a small part of it, I must admit for reloading both a bolt and a DR, having them both in 416 may help in some countries (some people seem to try to squeeze every little bit of saving out of everything !!!)

But as you say and as I have seen in the field, a little bit of extra this or that either way makes eff all difference to the animal if the bullet is put in the right place. A bit like 300 H&H versus 300 Win Mag argument !!!


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500Nitro
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Re: Is the 500/416 dead? [Re: AkMike]
      #178279 - 03/04/11 10:59 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Just made for someone that just has to have the latest and greatest touted by the gun rag writers.




Who seem to spend an inordinate amount of time writing and not shooting - or they shoot a couple of animals for the story.


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AkMike
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Re: Is the 500/416 dead? [Re: 500Nitro]
      #178285 - 03/04/11 12:00 PM

I understand that their job depends on selling the articles and they need new things to write about that's fresh. BUT why not work up a comparison based on hunting and if the animals are actually any deadder with a 375 Ruger,H&H or what ever.

I can't understand the mindset of the general public that believes 'verbatum' everything shown in print of from the `nets rumor mills.

--------------------
"When you see that in order to produce, you need to obtain permission from men who produce nothing; when you see that money is flowing to those who deal not in goods, but in favors; you may know that your society is doomed." Ayn Rand


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Is the 500/416 dead? [Re: AkMike]
      #178325 - 03/04/11 08:50 PM

It would have been more successful but the reintroduction of the two .450/400 chamberings effectively removed the need for it.

I looked seriously at it, for one day when it was possible. But comparing the recoil of a .500/416 to a .450/400 shows it recoils similar to a .450 or .470, for only a small smount of extra velocity. And probably a heavier rifle than in a .450/400.

So the choice would be for a .450/400 or a .500/416, heavier and recoiling more, for a 400 gr. Or a .470 / .450 with 500 gr bullets compared to a .500/416 with 400 gr bullet with the .416 being less effective.

So my future ambitions steered more to the traditional .450/400 chambering in hopefully a slightly more handy rifle.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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4seventy
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Re: Is the 500/416 dead? [Re: DarylS]
      #178353 - 04/04/11 07:31 AM

Quote:

It should have caught on with the 'lowest presssure at any cost' crowd, but didn't.




By double rifle standards, the 500-416 is really not one of the "lowest pressure" cartridges.
The 500-416 is rated at almost as much max pressure as the .416 Rigby.
46,000 psi for the 500-416, and 47,000 psi for the .416 Rigby.


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Dr_Deer
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Re: Is the 500/416 dead? [Re: 4seventy]
      #178371 - 04/04/11 05:50 PM

Given the Manufacturers who chamber it, I'd say it still serves it's function; giving buyers a reason to order an extra set of interchangeable barrels when the order their .500NE double

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DarylS
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Re: Is the 500/416 dead? [Re: 4seventy]
      #178390 - 05/04/11 12:06 AM

Quote:

Quote:

It should have caught on with the 'lowest presssure at any cost' crowd, but didn't.




By double rifle standards, the 500-416 is really not one of the "lowest pressure" cartridges.
The 500-416 is rated at almost as much max pressure as the .416 Rigby.
46,000 psi for the 500-416, and 47,000 psi for the .416 Rigby.




I was consider 46,000psi as being low pressure. The high pressure crowd, the 55,000psi to 63,000psi would include the 'other' .416's and .375's.

Of course, the pressure generated is what you load it to. The person making the ammo has the final say.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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4seventy
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Re: Is the 500/416 dead? [Re: DarylS]
      #178426 - 05/04/11 01:10 PM

Quote:

I was consider 46,000psi as being low pressure. The high pressure crowd, the 55,000psi to 63,000psi would include the 'other' .416's and .375's.





Daryl,
When talking about large bore big game cartridges of .400 cal and larger, 55,000psi to 63,000psi are bolt gun or single shot pressures, not double rifle pressures.
We are dealing with the 500-416 NE here, which is a flanged cartridge designed for use in double rifles, and intended to produce similar performance to the .416 Rigby.
Once you get into the large bore double rifle NE cartridges, pressures of 55,000psi to 63,000psi are unheard of. They just don't exist, and for good reason.
With large bore Flanged NE cartridges, here is an idea what you are dealing with.

450-400 3" NE.....41,000psi
450-400 3.25 NE...43,000psi
450 NE 3.25.......44,000psi
450 No2 NE........41,000psi
500-465 NE........36,000psi
470 NE............39,000psi
475 No2 NE........40,000psi
500 3" NE.........41,000psi
577 3" NE.........36,000psi

Notice that none of those cartridges are rated at anywhere near 55,000psi to 63,000psi.
You can also see that none of those cartridges are rated as high as the 46,000psi of the 500-416.
The 500-416 NE is a double rifle cartridge, and is definately not one of the lowest pressure big bore flanged NE cartridges which were designed for use in DR's.
It is actually one of the highest.

Please note that I am not saying that there is anything "wrong" with the 500-416.


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Rolf
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Re: Is the 500/416 dead? [Re: 4seventy]
      #178657 - 10/04/11 06:03 AM

I think Krieghoff is still offering their double rifle line in 500/416 and are also providing ammunition.

best regards
Rolf


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DarylS
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Re: Is the 500/416 dead? [Re: 4seventy]
      #178670 - 10/04/11 10:23 AM

470 - I am very much aware of the difference in pressure generated between the old, virtually obsolete DR rounds and the more modern bolt action rounds. Have been since 1968 when I started loading and making a study of rifle and ctg. ballistics.

My point was the .500/416 is a low pressure round designed for the old school DR shooter - and as such, it is surprising it didn't become more popular than it has - amongst the low pressure DR crowd, that is. Seems to me, that's pretty much what my first post said initially.

High pressure rounds rare in a DR? - yes, I guess, but still there somtimes - seems to me I've seen Rigby's or maybe W.Richards DR's for sale, chambered for the .375H&H (not the low pressure flanged version). Now, the .375H&H a 60,000psi range ctg. with a .532" rim and the .458 Win Mag. same rim diameter, but lower pressure, but still a firm 55,000psi round, I think.

I wonder about a cordite round that produced 40,000
psi 'at home' then fired in rifle which was originally regulated in Merry old damp England, but after being carried in "the front of a shirt pocket" or ctg. loop was then thrust into a blued/blacked rifle that had been carried in the 120F heat under a blazing sun, barrels so hot they couldn't be touched, let alone held.

How much pressure did that cordite loaded round produce?

Did anything happen to the regulation, so painstakenly adjusted for bullet weight, pressure, velocity and recoil at 60F - maybe 70F or perhaps 55F or even colder - what time of year were the barrels regulated? - how did that round so carefully regulated shoot, after being bounced up in pressure an incredible amount by the heat of the sun and sitting in the tubes (or even freshout of the pocket - almost instantly taking on the temp of the tubes) - how did it shoot, accuracy wise?

Care to guess how much pressure those guns are actually handling or have handled, shot after shot?

We all know why those old ctgs. were loaded a low a pressure. It was because of African heat & cordite.

What about using modern powders that are not heat sensitive at all - or at least very much less senstive.

Thus, the .375H&H and .458's become viable DR ctgs. as they did or have.

Incidently, the Hodgdon Extreme (ADI) powders, perhaps the least heat/cold sensitive that are avilable, are fairly recent additions to those available, yet the .375H&H and .458 mags pre-date those 'best' powders. This says modern DR's can be chambered easily for more efficient rounds, that develope slightly better ballistics than the old ones - is all- which of course, has nothing to do with this thread.

edited to correct this spelling mistake:(not the low pressure flanged version).

Edited by Daryl_S (11/04/11 01:59 AM)


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4seventy
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Re: Is the 500/416 dead? [Re: DarylS]
      #178824 - 11/04/11 07:43 PM

Daryl,
I know you have a wealth of experience in many types of firearms, reloading, shooting, hunting, gunsmithing etc, and I do have a lot of respect for your exp and knowledge in those fields, but out of interest, can I ask how much experience you have regarding loading Flanged Nitro Express cartridges, and shooting /hunting with them in Nitro Express Double Rifles?


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Is the 500/416 dead? [Re: DarylS]
      #178826 - 11/04/11 07:47 PM

Quote:

470 - I am very much aware of the difference in pressure generated between the old, virtually obsolete DR rounds and the more modern bolt action rounds.




Why are the DR rounds "virtually obsolete"?

If anything experiencing a resurgence.

Just because manufacturers "create" "new" rounds with new branding doesn't make the older ones obsolete or less effective. Elephant and buffalo etc have not suddenly become armour plated needing a hundred or two more fps velocity.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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DUGABOY1
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Re: Is the 500/416 dead? [Re: DarylS]
      #178850 - 12/04/11 12:31 AM

………………………………...............................THEN AND NOW!

Quote:

470 - I am very much aware of the difference in pressure generated between the old, virtually obsolete DR rounds and the more modern bolt action rounds. Have been since 1968 when I started loading and making a study of rifle and ctg. ballistics.

My point was the .500/416 is a low pressure round designed for the old school DR shooter - and as such, it is surprising it didn't become more popular than it has - amongst the low pressure DR crowd, that is. Seems to me, that's pretty much what my first post said initially.




Daryl, I doubt most of the users of double rifles in the cordite days really understood the pressures generated in their rifles. IMO they certainly would have noticed that their rifle didn’t shoot as well when hot, or tended to make them hard to open on occasion. However since the only thing they had to go by was CORDITE vs Black powder. Today we know far more than the average big game hunter (read poacher in many, or most cases) who depended totally on factory ammo, and simply accepted the factory as sometimes not well loaded. They may have simply thought the ammo batch was bad
and not consistent.

Quote:

High pressure rounds rare in a DR? - yes, I guess, but still there sometimes - seems to me I've seen Rigby's or maybe W.Richards DR's for sale, chambered for the .375H&H (not the low pressure flanged version). Now, the .375H&H a 60,000psi range ctg. with a .532" rim and the .458 Win Mag. same rim diameter, but lower pressure, but still a firm 55,000psi round, I think. I wonder about a cordite round that produced 40,000
psi 'at home' then fired in rifle which was originally regulated in Merry old damp England, but after being carried in "the front of a shirt pocket" or ctg. loop was then thrust into a blued/blacked rifle that had been carried in the 120F heat under a blazing sun, barrels so hot they couldn't be touched, let alone held.

How much pressure did that cordite loaded round produce?




The above is true, but rarely, if ever chambered for those rounds before the ammo for the old double rifle ammo started getting hard to come by, and even though they were before the best powders we have today, the powders they did have were far less effected by temperature than cordite!

I could be wrong, but I don’t think you will find a double rifle chambered for the 375 H&H belated/rimless round before the classic double rifle became hard to come by, before that I would bet 99% if not 100% were chambered for the H&H 375 flanged. The 458 Win Mag wasn’t even introduced till the mid 1950s

I believe the main objection to the cartridges you mention today is, the lack of a flange, more than pressure. The rifles that are chambered for the 375H&H, and the 458 Win Mag were made strong enough to handle these chamberings. The cordite rounds that went through the roof in the heat and did some damage that showed up over time I’m quite sure. However what choices did the shooter of the day have?

Quote:

Did anything happen to the regulation, so painstakenly adjusted for bullet weight, pressure, velocity and recoil at 60F - maybe 70F or perhaps 55F or even colder - what time of year were the barrels regulated? - how did that round so carefully regulated shoot, after being bounced up in pressure an incredible amount by the heat of the sun and sitting in the tubes (or even freshout of the pocket - almost instantly taking on the temp of the tubes) - how did it shoot, accuracy wise?

Care to guess how much pressure those guns are actually handling or have handled, shot after shot?

We all know why those old ctgs. were loaded a low a pressure. It was because of African heat & cordite.

What about using modern powders that are not heat sensitive at all - or at least very much less senstive.

Thus, the .375H&H and .458's become viable DR ctgs. as they did or have.




Again as most will testify the main objection to those cartridges today is not pressure but the lack of a flanged case, and problems with most double rifles so chambered having to be loaded one barrel at a time, and/or worries about reliable extraction/ejection, more than pressure.

Quote:

Incidently, the Hodgdon Extreme (ADI) powders, perhaps the least heat/cold sensitive that are avilable, are fairly recent additions to those available, yet the .375H&H and .458 mags pre-date those 'best' powders. This says modern DR's can be chambered easily for more efficient rounds, that develope slightly better ballistics than the old ones - is all- which of course, has nothing to do with this thread.

edited to correct this spelling mistake:(not the low pressure flanged version).




The above is very true that balisticly these rounds may be more efficient, but they are not as reliable in other ways. These two cartridges are best kept in bolt action rifles! The worry is not if they will fail to extract/eject from a double rifle , but when they will fail!




Quote:

Daryl,
I know you have a wealth of experience in many types of firearms, reloading, shooting, hunting, gunsmithing etc, and I do have a lot of respect for your exp and knowledge in those fields, but out of interest, can I ask how much experience you have regarding loading Flanged Nitro Express cartridges, and shooting /hunting with them in Nitro Express Double Rifles?




I would like to know that as well! The fact is the 500/416 has never been chambered in an old rifle, and IMO the rifles it is chambered in are strong enough to handle them quite nicely. That being said it is the flange that makes it a proper double rifle round.

Again IMO, the .416 caliber has never been popular with double rifle people, and this cartridge even less so. The 500/416 K is alive but in serious danger of going the way of the DoDo!

--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"


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DarylS
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Re: Is the 500/416 dead? [Re: DUGABOY1]
      #178855 - 12/04/11 02:04 AM

Whether or not I have loaded for DR's and their ctgs. really has nothing to do with this thread or the credibiltiy of the statements made.

I'll answer your question though - Yes I have loaded Nitro Express ammo for DR's, unlike many people who've owned the rifles for many years. No, I've never owned one.

Seems to me, many people own them and don't load for them- know nothing about such a venture - all voodoo to them.

How many back in 1900 loaded their own ammo - NONE!, I don't own but I load - what's the point on this? There is none really - moot is the word for this - no credibiltiy to the point really, merely an attempt at bullying or something - I'm too old to bully - or something?

At the start of this thread, you or someone else jumped on me for saying the .416/500 was a low pressure round - which wrongly grew into a heated discussion on loading, pressures, etc. Not sure how that happened or why it did, but it did, unfortunately.

It is indeed a low pressure round compared to modern ie: post 1900 bolt actioned rounds. What's the problem? This is common knowledge. You then stated there were no high pressure rounds chambered in DR's - oops - you forgot about the .375H&H and .458WM - so what - we all make mistakes - memories with old age? - it happens.

The .416/500 is a 'modern, low pressure round of Nitro Express design. It was designed and is chambered in modern double rifles - it didn't become popular and is only chambered in one or perhaps 2 makes of DR's - what's the problem?

There are many modern bolt actioned rounds that never became popular - were only chamberd in one or 2 makes of rifles and never 'caught on'. They were good rounds that didn't make it. Oh well. If someone wants something badly enough, they can have it - the wonders of money - that's all it takes.

Need more coffee.

Edited to correct some mistakes mostly spelling - it happens & I probably missed some - oh well.

Oh yeah - why did I say they were obsolete? - not all are - BUT - how many or which ctgs. are not being loaded in modern made rifles DR's or whatever?

How much ammo is being sold for a .600 Nitro, .577 Nitro, .500/416 Nitro? The current 'laws' of what is declared obsolete or popular, relate almost entirely to the amount of ammo sold for a given round and how many new rifles today are being built for and chambered for those rounds. NUMBERS declare what is obsolete in today's society.

Whether a round is declared obsolete or not matters very little - if you have something you like and you load for it, then for you it isn't obsolete, is it.

Whether a ctg. is obsolete or not, as I noted, has nothing to do with it's capabilities or accemptance by an aging population of shooters - it has to do with #'s only. Don't fret the little stuff. It doesn't matter and it grows ulcers.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

Edited by Daryl_S (12/04/11 02:40 AM)


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Is the 500/416 dead? [Re: DarylS]
      #178862 - 12/04/11 03:13 AM

Quote:

Whether a round is declared obsolete or not matters very little - if you have something you like and you load for it, then for you it isn't obsolete, is it.

Whether a ctg. is obsolete or not, as I noted, has nothing to do with it's capabilities or accemptance by an aging population of shooters - it has to do with #'s only. Don't fret the little stuff. It doesn't matter and it grows ulcers.




Daryl

I would disagree with that definition ie the number of factory rounds sold or not, makes a cartridge/calibre obsolete.

I would instead say, if it no longer does the job it is intended for, or if there are far better alternatives available.

The NE rounds still are the best for what they were principally designed for. IMO rimmed rounds for large bore double rifles, and sometimes single shots. The magnum or rimless rounds might be more powerful but are not the best choice for a double rifle.

The large BORE cartridges are examples of obsolete rounds, superseded by the NE cartridges. IMO. Might be fun still though for an enthusiast.

Other examples would be any purely black powder cartridges that were never designed for Nitro loadings.

Some would say the .45/70 is another example of an obsolete round, except maybe in a big bore lever action. Even though there is probably more ammo sold for it than all the NE rounds combined.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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xausa
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Re: Is the 500/416 dead? [Re: NitroX]
      #178873 - 12/04/11 07:14 AM

In 1972 I began discussions with Heinz-Ulrich Krieghoff, then CEO of Krieghoff GmbH concerning the right to represent Krieghoff hunting guns in the USA. At the time, the K-32 competition shotgun was being marketed through Hal DuPont, who had been instrumental in reviving the pre-war Remington 32 shotgun by having it reproduced in Germany by Krieghoff.

At the time, the Krieghoff hunting line included the Neptun and Trumpf drillings and the Ulm and Teck over and under double rifle, combination gun and double barrelled shotgun. The drillings were available in 12, 16, 20 and 20 gauge Magnum shot calibers and an assortment of European and American rifle calibers. The double guns were available in only 16, 20 and 20 gauge Magnum shot calibers and an assortment of German and American rifle calibers, including 7X65R, 8X57JRS, 8X68S, 9.3X74R, 9.3X64, .30-'06, .300 and .375 H&H Magnum, and .458 Winchester Magnum.

The year before, I had taken a Teck double rifle in .458 Winchester Magnum, with interchangeable barrels in .375 H&H Magnum and 20 gauge 3" Magnum on a five week safari in Kenya, and I was convinced of its suitabilty for African hunting.

As a result of the discussions with Herr Krieghoff, my company, Creighton & Warren, Inc., was given the distributorship for Krieghoff hunting weapons in the US, and an order was placed for a certain number of each of the models, the drillings in 12 gauge/.30-'06 and 20 gauge 3" magnum/.243, and the double rifles in .458 Winchester Magnum and .375 H&H. The weapons were all fitted with stocks similar to the one on my Krieghoff double rifle (straight comb, no cheek piece), but any type of stock was available on special order.

One of my main concerns at the time had to do with the lack of a cartridge really suited to a double rifle. Kynoch had ceased production of Nitro Express ammunition and existing stocks were dwindling. I saw the need for a rimmed cartridge which could duplicate the ballistics of the classic Nitro Express cartridges and at the same time reduce the pressure generated by the H&H and Winchester Magnums.

My idea was to use the existing .375 Flanged Magnum case and create a rimmed version of the .450 Watts, a cartridge I was thoroughly familiar with, which would duplicate the .458 Winchester Magnum ballistics at considerably lower pressure. The.375 case was chosen because the same equipment used to manufacture the .375 H&H Magnum could be used to manufacture it, and both Winchester and Remington offered the .375 H&H.

I obtained a quantity of Kynoch Berdan primed .375 Flanged Magnum brass, had a reamer made by Keith Francis, assembled a test platform in the shape of a Winchester High Wall single shot, in which I first fire formed the cases (with a significant loss of brass through splitting) and then tested loads until I had a reliable 2150 fps with the 500 grain Winchester solid.

I then shipped reamer and loads to Krieghoff and had a Teck double rifle made up with the new cartridge. Winchester agreed to turn out the empty cartridge cases, headstamped ".450 C&W Magnum" provided a large enough order was placed.

However, about that time disaster, in the form of the Arab oil embargo and the concomitant economic downturn, intervened, and other than for that one double rifle, the reamer was never used again.

Herr Krieghoff was what the Germans call a "passionerter Jäger" (a passionate hunter), but his interest lay in conventioal European and North American hunting. Africa had no appeal at all for him, and my suggestions that Krieghoff embark in a double rifle development program fell on deaf ears. Not until 1996 was my plea for a rimmed low pressure African cartridge and a side by side double rifle realized.

My DEVA handbook cites the maximum allowable pressure for the .500/.416 cartridge as 3150 bar, compared to 4300 bar for the .416 Remington Magnum. That translates roughly to 44,100 lbs/in2 versus 60,200 lbs/in2, so there is a significant difference.

My problem with the choice of a .416 projectile for a double rifle is that in my opinion the .416 is a mid-range caliber and short range calibers start with .458, so a .500/.450 would have made more sense to me.

Moreover, the revival of the .450/.400 has created the opportunity to employ a traditional British African .40 caliber cartridge with little loss in performance. I think Krieghoff was too hesitant and came in with both the cartridge and the double rifle, with its questionable hand cocking feature, too late to secure a reliable share of the market.


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4seventy
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Reged: 07/05/03
Posts: 2210
Loc: Queensland Australia
Re: Is the 500/416 dead? [Re: DarylS]
      #178875 - 12/04/11 07:52 AM

Quote:

You then stated there were no high pressure rounds chambered in DR's - oops - you forgot about the .375H&H and .458WM - so what - we all make mistakes - memories with old age? - it happens.





Daryl,
Please re-read what I actually said.
NOWHERE have I stated that "there were no high pressure rounds chambered in DR's".
What I did say was..........

>>>>> When talking about large bore big game cartridges of .400 cal and larger, 55,000psi to 63,000psi are bolt gun or single shot pressures, not double rifle pressures.....

Once you get into the large bore double rifle NE cartridges, pressures of 55,000psi to 63,000psi are unheard of. They just don't exist, and for good reason.
With large bore Flanged NE cartridges, here is an idea what you are dealing with. <<<<<



Please note that I was specifically talking about "large bore double rifle NE cartridges", which are, "large bore flanged NE cartridges".
The .458 Win mag and the 375 H&H belted magnum do NOT fall into that category. They are not flanged, and they were not designed specifically for double rifles.
Also the 375 mag does not fall into the "cartridges of .400 cal and larger" which I clearly mentioned in my post.

Why on earth would I ever suggest that " there were no high pressure rounds chambered in DR's", when one of my own most hunted with doubles is chambered for the 7x65R, which is a (CIP) 55,000psi cartridge?
That particular DR was also available in 270 Win, a cartridge rated at (CIP) 62,000psi!

The .375 and .458 belted magnums have certainly been chambered in DR's, but they are not, and never will be, "large bore Flanged NE cartridges".

My involvment with DR's goes back quite a while, about 30 years, and to suggest that I "oops forgot" that the 375 and 458 magnums have been chambered in DR's is pretty funny.


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DUGABOY1
.400 member


Reged: 02/02/03
Posts: 1340
Loc: TEXAS USA
Re: Is the 500/416 dead? [Re: DarylS]
      #178876 - 12/04/11 08:10 AM

Quote:

Whether or not I have loaded for DR's and their ctgs. really has nothing to do with this thread or the credibiltiy of the statements made.

I'll answer your question though - Yes I have loaded Nitro Express ammo for DR's, unlike many people who've owned the rifles for many years. No, I've never owned one.

Seems to me, many people own them and don't load for them- know nothing about such a venture - all voodoo to them. How many back in 1900 loaded their own ammo - NONE!, I don't own but I load - what's the point on this? There is none really - moot is the word for this - no credibiltiy to the point really, merely an attempt at bullying or something - I'm too old to bully - or something?




Daryl,Mac here! I suppose that was aimed at 4seventy, and me as well, and I plead guilty to asking but not to bullying, 4seventy can speak for himself! In my case it was simply a question. I don't bully, simply because I hate bullies on the Internet. As far as loading for double rifles today I think if you want a double rifle to act the way it is supposed to you will handload for it, and the fact that it cuts the very high cost is only a plus. I'm sure 4seventy loads for his, but I can tell you I have loaded for every firearm I have owned 9 the being almost ever type of rifle ever made except rim fire, since I was 17 yrs old, and I'm 74 today.


Quote:

At the start of this thread, you or someone else jumped on me for saying the .416/500 was a low pressure round - which wrongly grew into a heated discussion on loading, pressures, etc. Not sure how that happened or why it did, but it did, unfortunately. It is indeed a low pressure round compared to modern ie: post 1900 bolt actioned rounds. What's the problem? This is common knowledge. You then stated there were no high pressure rounds chambered in DR's - oops - you forgot about the .375H&H and .458WM - so what - we all make mistakes - memories with old age? - it happens.




Daryl Mac again! You are correct it is low pressure compared to most bolt rifle cartridges, and "IS" a modern double rifle cartridge for modern double rifles. I never said otherwise. All I said it can't be compared to the cartridges or rifles that were made originally for Cordite ammo. I DID NOT forget the 375H&H & 458 Win Mag, so I have no idea who that accusation is aimed at. It seems you are posting to several people here, with a post that gives the idea that all this is pointed at me. That is the only reason I'm replying to your post here.

Quote:

The 416/500 is a 'modern, low pressure round of Nitro Express design. It was designed and is chambered in modern double rifles - it didn't become popular and is only chambered in one or perhaps 2 makes of DR's - what's the problem?

There are many modern bolt actioned rounds that never became popular - were only chamberd in one or 2 makes of rifles and never 'caught on'. They were good rounds that didn't make it. Oh well. If someone wants something badly enough, they can have it - the wonders of money - that's all it takes.

Need more coffee.




Again you are correct, there are many rounds over the years that were good designs that failed simply because it was not what folks wanted at the time. Unfortunately the 500/416K is one of them! I know a couple of double rifle owners who have rifles so chambered, and they love them. For me personally I simply do not particularly like any of the .416 cartridges be they for bolt or double rifle. That however is a personal thing.



Quote:

Edited to correct some mistakes mostly spelling - it happens & I probably missed some - oh well.

Oh yeah - why did I say they were obsolete? - not all are - BUT - how many or which ctgs. are not being loaded in modern made rifles DR's or whatever?




I have absolutely no idea who the above is aimed at! Anyone who has ever read more than ten sentences written by me can tell you I have no business telling anyone how to spell!


Quote:

How much ammo is being sold for a .600 Nitro, .577 Nitro, .500/416 Nitro? The current 'laws' of what is declared obsolete or popular, relate almost entirely to the amount of ammo sold for a given round and how many new rifles today are being built for and chambered for those rounds. NUMBERS declare what is obsolete in today's society.

Whether a round is declared obsolete or not matters very little - if you have something you like and you load for it, then for you it isn't obsolete, is it.

Whether a ctg. is obsolete or not, as I noted, has nothing to do with it's capabilities or accemptance by an aging population of shooters - it has to do with #'s only. Don't fret the little stuff. It doesn't matter and it grows ulcers.




The above has nothing to do with me! You are correct that many take numbers sold to declare something obsolete, but in today’s market where double rifles are concerned as long as components are readily available a cartridge is NOT obsolete. There are many however that are obsolete, that are still being shot, and hunted with every day. They are obsolete because the only way to shoot them is to MAKE CASES, and sometimes BULLETS for them because no factory components are available.

If I personally upset you then I apologize, I certainly did not mean to! I was simply clarifying some points that others seem to have missed.

--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"


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Ron_Vella
.333 member


Reged: 29/04/05
Posts: 432
Loc: Oshawa, Ontario, Canada
Re: Is the 500/416 dead? [Re: DUGABOY1]
      #178880 - 12/04/11 11:10 AM

In an attempt to get this thread back on track, I'd like to make a few personal observations. The .416 Rigby has long held a great reputation among seasoned African hands, read John Taylor for instance, for its' utility as both a short and long range cartridge. It has held that distinction virtually since its' introduction, which is aproaching its' centenary. I've wondered for about 30 years now why no one thought to design a rimmed version of it which would be suitable for both falling-block and double rifles.

Then lo and behold, Krieghoff introduced the .500-416 and I thought that this was "the answer to a maiden's prayers". Unfortunately their vehicle, the "safe-action" rifle, has not been a stellar performer, sales-wise. Also, as noted above, the standardization of the .450-400 by Hornady, has made available a 40 calibre classic nitro express cartridge at an affordable price.

However, none of the above, IMHO, takes anything away from the .500-416. I personally believe that it is a VERY fine cartridge and I hope that its' popularity will increase before it fades off into the mists of time. A 40 calibre, 400 grain bullet, with huge sectional density, launched at 2400 fps,is a wonderful long range performer and killer, regardless of the name of the cartridge which launches it.


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