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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Big Bore Rifles
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Empire375
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Reged: 18/08/09
Posts: 239
Loc: Victoria, Australia
CZ 550 in 505 Gibbs
      #177857 - 29/03/11 07:28 PM

Hi Folks

I was wondering if anybody has one of these rifles and their thoughts on quality etc

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500grains
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Re: CZ 550 in 505 Gibbs [Re: Empire375]
      #177859 - 29/03/11 09:08 PM

A good friend of mine has one. The .505 Gibbs is beyond the design parameters of the CZ550. The rim is too big for the bolt body diameter, but it still works. Quality is fine. Personally I would not buy one. A CZ550 in .458 Lott would be a better route, or a larger action in the 505 Gibbs.

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FATBOY404
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Re: CZ 550 in 505 Gibbs [Re: 500grains]
      #177865 - 29/03/11 09:26 PM

450Ackley will come in I think.
He was saying unless you used max loads they had trouble fire forming cases in the CZ as it was so long throated(I think).

Hello Dave ???.

--------------------
"WHATEVER BLOWS YOUR HAIR BACK"

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mauserand9mm
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Reged: 03/09/09
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Re: CZ 550 in 505 Gibbs [Re: FATBOY404]
      #177868 - 29/03/11 10:15 PM

The CZ550 in this calibre is only available in the "Custom" version and is much more expensive. I've emailed Winchester/Olin here in Aussie to see what custom options it comes with - we get what they supply and generally can't select our options. I was thinking (still - for the last couple of years) about one in 500 Jeffery (also the "Custom" version) for BGR Group 3.

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450_Ackley
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Reged: 06/02/03
Posts: 583
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Re: CZ 550 in 505 Gibbs [Re: mauserand9mm]
      #177893 - 30/03/11 07:33 AM

The one I "had been asked about" was a CZ in 500 Jeffery, the owner kept having hangfires with his reloads. the chamber and throat was cast and the throat was long enough that a 600 grain Woodleigh, touching the lands, had a gap of around 1/4" between the base of the bullet and the mouth of the case. the theory was that his loads were not "hot" enough to properly get the bullet going before gas started escaping back around the case, and nor were they warm enough to create a proper seal of the case either.
On asking Winchester (I heard this from the owner, not direct from Winchester) they told him all CZ 500 J's were throated the same. To Winchesters credit, they bought him a box of Norma factory ammo that worked fine. Also, winchester supplied him a load of 130 grains of Win 760 with a 535 Woodleigh, that worked fine as well.
I don't know what the 505's are like at all, other than being expensive.

Regards,
David.

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FATBOY404
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Re: CZ 550 in 505 Gibbs [Re: 450_Ackley]
      #177894 - 30/03/11 07:39 AM

I knew I would "cock it up".

Thanks Dave.

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"WHATEVER BLOWS YOUR HAIR BACK"

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450_Ackley
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Re: CZ 550 in 505 Gibbs [Re: FATBOY404]
      #177897 - 30/03/11 08:19 AM

Nah, nothing about "cocking it up". Both big calibres, both kick!!

DC

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Empire375
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Reged: 18/08/09
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Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: CZ 550 in 505 Gibbs [Re: 450_Ackley]
      #177904 - 30/03/11 10:26 AM

Wow theres a wealth of info on this forum. Thanks heaps fellas !!
It has also been suggested to me that the 500 Jeffery is more versatile than the 505 Gibbs and that it certainly should be considered a viable alternative.
The core use of this rifle will be punching holes in paper so stopping power debates etc dosnt really matter to me. I would be surprised if the rifle ever left Melbourne !!

That being said we can dream cant we ?

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500Nitro
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Reged: 06/01/03
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Re: CZ 550 in 505 Gibbs [Re: Empire375]
      #177905 - 30/03/11 10:32 AM


Why do you say more versatile ?

The only benefit I see is the 500 Jeffrey the gun doesn't need a Magnum Mauser action to run it and it can use any .510 bullet which means you can download it for plinking and / or shooting roo's, pigs etc.

Apart from that, I doubt any animal would notice.

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Empire375
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Reged: 18/08/09
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Re: CZ 550 in 505 Gibbs [Re: 500Nitro]
      #177906 - 30/03/11 10:57 AM

I was told versatile for the very reasons you mention 500 Nitro (almost word for word)
I believe I'll go for the Jeffery !

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500Nitro
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Re: CZ 550 in 505 Gibbs [Re: Empire375]
      #177907 - 30/03/11 11:09 AM


I'd call it more flexible - the fact that you have more bullet choices.

Good choice, I have both.

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mauserand9mm
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Posts: 1040
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Re: CZ 550 in 505 Gibbs [Re: 500Nitro]
      #177911 - 30/03/11 11:48 AM

The hangfires in the Jeffery sound like they were possibly underloaded (they were mentioned as being reloads). Large cases with too much unoccupied space can do this - I had these dramas with reduced cast loads in my 458. There is also a risk of pressure excursions if this happens with a slow burning powder. The pressure wave bounces up and down the case and adds to itself at the ends and can put "rings" in the steel of the chamber or possibly even blow apart the rifle (haven't heard of local cases of the latter though). This pressure increase effect is well known in the gas industry and is known as "pressure piling", and there are standard measures generally employed to prevent it occurring.

I also found out a bit more about the CZ Custom Magnum model. The difference from the standard Safari Magnum are – they have a barrel band sling mount, #1 Fancy Grade (?) American Walnut timber and are glass-bedded. The Jeffery and Gibbs also have mercury recoil reducers fitted. This equates to the extra $1,500, or thereabouts, that they cost over the standard magnum.

I was interested in the Jeffery as it is lower in power than the Gibbs. A 500NE would meet the requirements for BGR group 3 and the Jeffery is next closest for a bolt gun.

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500Nitro
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Re: CZ 550 in 505 Gibbs [Re: mauserand9mm]
      #177912 - 30/03/11 11:51 AM


I agree re underloaded. Sounds like it.

I was going to ask how having a long throat would cause the problem ?

.

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: CZ 550 in 505 Gibbs [Re: 500Nitro]
      #177913 - 30/03/11 12:10 PM

Re the "hangfiring" rounds, was a filler used to take up any excess space in the cases?

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John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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450_Ackley
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Reged: 06/02/03
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Re: CZ 550 in 505 Gibbs [Re: NitroX]
      #177914 - 30/03/11 12:27 PM

All,
The original load the guy tried was 100 grains of AR 2208, which should have given him about 2150-2200 fps, not that underloaded, but not a heavy load either. No fillers were used at all, that I'm aware of.
I've personally seen the chamber cast, and the throat is ridiculously long, we are only theorising that the long throat had something to do with it as well. (Also Bertram cases were used in the original loading, not that that should have a bearing either)
It was quite a surprise when the 600 grn Woodleigh could be dropped into the throat, a sized case chambered and no resistance felt at all. This is where the short neck on a 500 J is a downside, whereas the much nicer neck on a 505 might have permitted him to seat the bullet out to be just shy of the lands.
My own 500 J was built using a Clymer reamer that Pro-Cal had at the time, it has a much shorter throat, I can seat a 535 out to touch the lands if I needed to.

DC

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500Nitro
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Re: CZ 550 in 505 Gibbs [Re: 450_Ackley]
      #177916 - 30/03/11 12:31 PM


Why do you want it just shy of the lands ?
What difference is it going to make and to what ?

We aren't talking tack holers here.

I am genuinely interested to know.

.

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FATBOY404
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Reged: 14/11/09
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Re: CZ 550 in 505 Gibbs [Re: 500Nitro]
      #177917 - 30/03/11 12:39 PM

You dont know 450Ackly. It's either a "tack holer" or it goes.

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"WHATEVER BLOWS YOUR HAIR BACK"

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mauserand9mm
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Re: CZ 550 in 505 Gibbs [Re: 450_Ackley]
      #177918 - 30/03/11 12:40 PM

I agree that the long throat will add to the hangfire problem. All of the CZ magnums have long throats. My earlier reduced cast load attempts with my 458 CZ resulted in the powder being "blown out" while the projectile transversed the vast expanse to the start of the rifling (it also got stuck in the rifling). Weird thing too - I'd used a filler but it wasn't blown out of the case at all and you could see where some of the powder underneath it had tried to light (it was pale in colour and clumped together). I was using magnum primers too.

2208 is relatively fast but 100gns is alot to try and fire up.

One other comment - cases with pronounced shoulders are easier to light up the powder and less likely to hangfire as easily. The shoulder acts as a restriction to powder forward movement and is also a pressure reflection point to keep the flame where it is meant to be. In a straight walled case with reduced loads I'd imagine the flame must run forward and go out if there's no powder at the end of the path.

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: CZ 550 in 505 Gibbs [Re: 500Nitro]
      #177925 - 30/03/11 01:32 PM

Quote:


Why do you want it just shy of the lands ?
What difference is it going to make and to what ?

We aren't talking tack holers here.

I am genuinely interested to know.

.



Everyone to their own, but I don't like the chance of getting a bullet stuck in the rifling in any big bore, if ejecting a loaded round. Had it happen with a .30-06 which I used to load just touching the lands. Not again. Especially when in a big bore and if hunting elephant or buffalo or similar, would rather the rounds cycle with less chance of a mishap.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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500Nitro
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Re: CZ 550 in 505 Gibbs [Re: NitroX]
      #177926 - 30/03/11 01:36 PM



Agree John, agree.

I can't see the bullet touching the lands making any difference to accuracy - both of my guns (50J and 505Gibbs) will tac hole just fine if the nutt behind the butt does his part !!!

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450_Ackley
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Re: CZ 550 in 505 Gibbs [Re: 500Nitro]
      #177928 - 30/03/11 01:55 PM

Nigel,
I think the point I'm trying to make is that the rifle in question had a long throat, the reference to "just shy of the lands" was to emphasise just how long that throat is.
In my 500 J, seated to the cannelure and lightly crimped, a 535 Woodleigh is "just shy of the lands", that is more of a reamer design I would think.
We are from different backgrounds here, you are predominately a hunter, I am a target shooter first and foremost, because I never seem to get time to hunt. If I was a hunter mostly, then I would not want my ammunition to touch the lands either, we can both agree on that.
But, in my situation, I need and want every advantage on paper I can get, and for me, that is without question, having bullets seated to within 10 thou of touching the lands "just shy" if you will. I load for calibres from 222 Rem to 500 J, and I use exactly the same loading principles for every calibre, and it's what works for me. I'm not saying every should do what I do, I'm not that up myself, just saying what works for me, nothing more than that.
Everyone's idea of what a "Tack hole" is is different as well. With exception of my 416 Ruger (at the moment), every rifle I own will shoot 3 or 5 shot groups under an inch at 100 yards, even the 500. That is acceptable to me, 2 inch groups are not acceptable to me.

Hope that clears up where I'm coming from.

Regards,
David.

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500Nitro
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Re: CZ 550 in 505 Gibbs [Re: 450_Ackley]
      #177929 - 30/03/11 02:05 PM


Yep.

My 505 Gibbs is like that, a good shooter. I would love to put it in a Vice type set up one day and see just what it is capable of.

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450_Ackley
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Re: CZ 550 in 505 Gibbs [Re: 500Nitro]
      #177931 - 30/03/11 03:15 PM

Nigel,
My personal opinion is that most big (40 plus) calibres are very accurate in their own right, most of them, if not all, are capable of shooting better than the "nut behind the bolt". I believe calibres get more contankerous (sp?) the faster they get, rifles around the 2000-3000 fps mark just seem to be easier to get to shoot.

Just my thoughts though FWIW.

David.

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500Nitro
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Re: CZ 550 in 505 Gibbs [Re: 450_Ackley]
      #177934 - 30/03/11 03:44 PM


David

I agree. As I learnt to shoot big bores better / well, I started to notice that. I had / have a tack holer 375H&H (a couple of them actually), a tack holer 458WM and a couple of 500's the same.

And then seeing them in the field on game, I see where I put 2 bullets next to each other - or in the case of the 505 Gibbs, 3 in a row SxS at a Buff on the run.

Speed kills groups !!! LOL

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: CZ 550 in 505 Gibbs [Re: 500Nitro]
      #177935 - 30/03/11 04:07 PM

My Whitworth .375 is capable of around a 1/3 MOA 3 shot groups if shot carefully and slowly. Normally I a,m too impatient.

I had some 300 gr Kegelspitz RWS ammo, pretty useless stuff, but these were both very fast and very accurate ie 1/3 MOA.

My Valmet 9.3 seems also very accurate, ie each barrel is accurste, not necessary the combination of two barrels, which is still OK.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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