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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Double Rifles
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Prewar70
.224 member


Reged: 10/08/04
Posts: 7
Rigby 450 Nitro Double For Sale
      #17776 - 10/08/04 01:39 PM

A friend of mine is selling a 1902 Rigby, serial #16889, 450 Nitro Express, boxlock, 28" barrels in very good condition, some cordite pitting in the throat, extractors, lop 15", includes another recoil pad for a lop of 14.5", a very nice extra stock too for a lefty, lop 13 7/8", shoots app. 2.5" at 50 yards, reloading data available. Oak and leather trunk by Marvin Huey using Cape buffalo hide. Includes cleaning rod, two turn screws, brass striker box, two brass snap caps, and original J. Rigby oil bottle. Case has proper period trade label with the street address of 72 St. James Street, London, which is how the barrels are engraved. I am not a double expert at all, but I do have some pictures that I can email to you. I will also answer any questions as best I can. Asking price is $19,250 but would consider any reasonable offers.









Edited by NitroX (11/08/04 11:42 PM)

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NitroXAdministrator
.700 member


Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 39248
Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...
Re: Rigby 450 Nitro Double For Sale [Re: Prewar70]
      #17860 - 11/08/04 11:43 PM

Photos added.


--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
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bonanza50
.224 member


Reged: 07/05/04
Posts: 23
Loc: South Carolina, USA
Re: Rigby 450 Nitro Double For Sale [Re: Prewar70]
      #17867 - 12/08/04 01:10 AM

I have a 1992 Mercedes SL500 I'll trade for it.

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Prewar70
.224 member


Reged: 10/08/04
Posts: 7
Re: Rigby 450 Nitro Double For Sale [Re: bonanza50]
      #17874 - 12/08/04 03:31 AM

That's good, I'll keep it in mind although I think the 450 Nitro has more knock-down power!

James

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Prewar70
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Reged: 10/08/04
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Re: Rigby 450 Nitro Double For Sale [Re: Prewar70]
      #18400 - 24/08/04 02:00 PM

Price has been reduced to $18,000 if anyone is interested.

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SaHunter
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Reged: 12/09/04
Posts: 29
Loc: South Australia, Australia
Re: Rigby 450 Nitro Double For Sale [Re: Prewar70]
      #19194 - 14/09/04 02:54 AM

Thats one nice shooting stick!

I wish i could afford one of those babys!



--------------------
Acquiring a milsurp rifle is a lot like dating. If the appearance is pleasing, you pick it up. Upon further examination, if you like the feel and smell of it, you take it home.

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nitro476
.300 member


Reged: 21/10/04
Posts: 120
Re: Rigby 450 Nitro Double For Sale [Re: Prewar70]
      #19902 - 21/10/04 12:22 PM

Although the rifle is nice and the caliber is fine, the price is a little steep. I had a "D" grade Rigby in 470 that I had totally restored to the tune of $5,000 and I sold it for 11,000. The Huey case is beautiful but the rifle is still not chambered in the most popular caliber.If the price was around 15,000 it would probably sell. The 28" barrels are also not a great selling point as well.

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bonanza
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Reged: 17/05/04
Posts: 2335
Loc: South Carolina
Re: Rigby 450 Nitro Double For Sale [Re: Prewar70]
      #19909 - 21/10/04 10:57 PM

Where is it located?

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500Nitro
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Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: Rigby 450 Nitro Double For Sale [Re: nitro476]
      #19933 - 22/10/04 03:21 PM


Nitro476

"The 28" barrels are also not a great selling point as well"

Could you explain your comment above. I would be interested in
your reasoning.

500 Nitro

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NitroXAdministrator
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Reged: 25/12/02
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Re: Rigby 450 Nitro Double For Sale [Re: nitro476]
      #19949 - 23/10/04 01:21 PM

In reply to:

but the rifle is still not chambered in the most popular caliber.



I think a .450 NE makes a fine calibre for a double rifle and considering this one is vintage 1902, a very fine match of rifle and cartridge.

.470 NE's are available in most modern double rifles but this isn't a rifle off the shelf.

JMO but then I AM biased using a .450 myself.



--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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nitro476
.300 member


Reged: 21/10/04
Posts: 120
Re: Rigby 450 Nitro Double For Sale [Re: 500Nitro]
      #19972 - 24/10/04 05:58 AM

In dealing with double rifles for the past 15 years i can honestly say that " The bulk of buyers prefer shorter barrels on doubles". I had a 470 Rigby with 28's and I could have sold much quicker if it would have been built with 24 inch tubes. I also prefer short barrels when hunting with a double.

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470Rigby
.333 member


Reged: 23/02/04
Posts: 328
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Re: Rigby 450 Nitro Double For Sale [Re: nitro476]
      #19980 - 24/10/04 12:49 PM

476

Curious about your .470 Rigby with 28" bbls?

A lot of .450's (usually 28's) were re-bored to .470 after the .450 ban came into force, . Some were even re-bored before they left the factory - obviously "work in progress" and as such, the factory records would not neccessarily reveal that they were re-bores.

Rigby wasn't the only maker guilty of doing this, but one has to wonder about the residual strength left in the chamber/barrel walls, since steel technology pre-WW1 was a bit "iffY"?

Do you have a Serial Number range??? Also, What type of top-bolting?? If a sidelock, did it have a the Rigby & Bissell "rising bite"??? Webley Screw Grip or PHV1 if a boxlock? Was there much "taper" in the barrel profile near the breech?? This might shed some light on it's origins.

Could it be that the buyer resistance was more related to the possibility that it might have been a re-bore??

Edited by 470Rigby (24/10/04 01:23 PM)

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500Nitro
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Re: Rigby 450 Nitro Double For Sale [Re: 470Rigby]
      #20008 - 25/10/04 02:25 PM


nitro476

I understand where you are coming from - most "shooters/hunters" "say" they prefer shorter barrels on doubles
and most do - those that have had the experience, especially in the stopping calibres (450+).
However IMHO, I think people forget the reason for the 28" barrels on Rigby's. In the change from BP to Nitro,
Rigby came out with the 450 (THE 450 IMHO) and the barrels were a carry over from BP days (to burn the powder)
plus required to burn the cordite.

I find mine (450 Rigby) quite good and very well balanced - if it had shorter barrels, all well and good
but as an example of the 1st big Nitro Calibre by the first maker, it is fine. I wouldn't necessarily take it
into REALLY thick scrub / jungle after DG due to it's barrel length, however if I had it in my hands, you
would accomodate it.

470Rigby - can you send me a PM to confirm ident ?

"Rigby wasn't the only maker guilty of doing this, but one has to wonder about the residual strength left in
the chamber/barrel walls, since steel technology pre-WW1 was a bit "iffY"?"

Why do you say "GUILTY" - I would call it an obvious thing to do.

Also, remember that ALL english guns still have to pass proof.

Why do you say "steel technology pre-WW1 was a bit "iffY"?"

I would say Steel technology was fine - and a damn sight better than Steel during WWII and just after
and Gun Manufacturing quality in the 70's and 80's where as Boddington says "cheap, cheap, cheap"

"Webley Screw Grip or PHV1 if a boxlock" - After Rigby finished making guns on the Rigby & Bissell rising
third bite", the Rigby Sidelocks were made on Webley Screw Grip actions (and maybe PHV1 actions but I can't
confirm this as I have never seen one).

"Could it be that the buyer resistance was more related to the possibility that it
might have been a re-bore??" IMHO, I don't think the market has enough of an
undertsanding of the English gun making trade 1900 - 1930 to think along those lines
and the difference between a 450 and a 470 in minimal.

Just my thoughts into the melting pot for comment.

500 Nitro

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470Rigby
.333 member


Reged: 23/02/04
Posts: 328
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Re: Rigby 450 Nitro Double For Sale [Re: 500Nitro]
      #20011 - 25/10/04 04:17 PM

500N

In reply to:

Why do you say "GUILTY" - I would call it an obvious thing to do



Rechambering a .450 NE to .470 will reduce chamber wall thickness by about .014" - not much you might say - but that is equal the the total wall thickness in some shotguns. Going from a chamber pressure of 17 tpsi for the .450 to 14 tpsi for the .470, combined may mitigate the consequences of reducing wall thickness, but in my observations, .470's usually had a more pronounced taper just forward of the breech, whereas .450's usually have less taper - presumably this was done for a reason.

Remember, British Proof is not an ultimate test of burst pressure - and says nothing about strength reserves.

In reply to:

Why do you say "steel technology pre-WW1 was a bit "iffY"?"



Technology transfer from the military arms industries, particularly from Germany after WW1 was rapid, and steel quality, both for barrels and actions of sporting rifles and guns did improve.

In reply to:

I don't think the market has enough of an
undertsanding of the English gun making trade 1900 - 1930 to think along those lines




Beg to differ. By way of explanation - an aquaintance, fairly new to the double rifle scene, took himself of to the US about 10 years back and bought a Purdey .470 from a high profile dealer over there, at what he thought to be something of a bargain price. The gun had been re-bored from .450, and had been sitting for some time on the dealers rack, unsold and unloved by what were obviously some fairly discriminating buyers over there.

As you would know, originality is an issue and even if modifications are technically sound, the lack of it will still be reflected in the price.

As for;
In reply to:

can you send me a PM to confirm ident ?

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500Nitro
.450 member


Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: Rigby 450 Nitro Double For Sale [Re: 470Rigby]
      #20013 - 25/10/04 08:52 PM

470 Rigby

"Remember, British Proof is not an ultimate test of burst pressure - and says nothing about strength reserves"

IMHO, at least the British proof all guns made with a severe over charge over what a normal shell / cartridge
would give.

What do you mean by "strength reserves" ?


Re "Technology transfer from the military arms industries, particularly from Germany after WW1 was rapid, and
steel quality, both for barrels and actions of sporting rifles and guns did improve"

Granted - however, the use of "iffy" is probably what I was refering to - if the steel pre WW1 was "iffy"
why are so many English guns still in use that were made pre WW1

I am still happy to shoot mypre WW1 doubles.

500 Nitro

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470Rigby
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Reged: 23/02/04
Posts: 328
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Re: Rigby 450 Nitro Double For Sale [Re: 500Nitro]
      #20014 - 25/10/04 10:03 PM

Nige
In reply to:

What do you mean by "strength reserves" ?




Simple - unless the steel has reached it's yield point (before the elastic limit)there will be no evidence after firing during proof testing of how close it came to fracture. That could be dictated by any residual incipient flaws present. In fact, the British Proof testing methodology could actually induce partial failure. Some would say that it is a form of Semi-Destructive Testing!

In other words - you have no idea of whether the pressure came withing 1% of failing, or 200%!

Even today, the British Proof Houses use proof pressures that are only 30% over the HMSP (Highest Mean Service Pressure) - not much of a margin given the vagaries of temperature, bore size and bullet hardness/diameter/bearing surface etc.

Metallurgy has moved on somewhat during the last 100 years, and today there are a number of Non-Destuctive Testing techniques that Materials Scientists use on say Pressure Vessels that ensure that once the computations of Hoop Stresses are done (basic Engineering!) , the part will not fail as a result of any flaws in the steel. It's a pity that the industry has not seen fit to adopt them!

Cheers!

470R

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500Nitro
.450 member


Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: Rigby 450 Nitro Double For Sale [Re: 470Rigby]
      #20027 - 26/10/04 06:30 AM

470Rigby

Thanks.

I would agree "that it is a form of Semi-Destructive Testing!" AND
"you have no idea of whether the pressure came withing 1% of failing, or 200%!"

However, I am still glad that the English proof the guns !!!

Re the 30% over the HMSP, I have heard it said that proof now is LESS severe than it was
in the early days.

"Not much of a margin given the vagaries of temperature, bore size and bullet hardness/diameter/bearing surface etc."

That is why I slug all of my bores before firing to make sure. I did a test on about 10 - 12 450/400's and only
found 1 that was a true .408, however in talking to others, .406 - .412 have been found.

Imagine IF someone put a .411 Monolithic in a .406 bore - probably a bit more than a 30% increase.
AT least Woodleigh Steel solids have some "give" in them !!!

Speak soon.


500 Nitro

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nitro476
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Reged: 21/10/04
Posts: 120
Re: Rigby 450 Nitro Double For Sale [Re: 470Rigby]
      #20077 - 28/10/04 12:59 AM

The 470 Rigby I owned was built in 1911. It had a lever release forend which would indicate an early gun. Paul Roberts, the previous owner of Rigby is an old friend and looked up the information on the gun for me. I will admit that the Rigby was the most accurate double I have ever owned and would place a bullet from right and left barrels touching at 60 yards. I used the rifle in Africa and took a great Cape buffalo and a Zebra with it. I really miss that rifle and wished that I still had it!

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nitro476
.300 member


Reged: 21/10/04
Posts: 120
Re: Rigby 450 Nitro Double For Sale [Re: 500Nitro]
      #20078 - 28/10/04 01:12 AM

The rifle was a "D" grade boxlock with a full rib that was file cut. It had the usual express sights with one standing, two folding. I had a flip-up night sight added as it helps blind guys like me shoot better!

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