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JUSTIN270
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Loc: Tasmania ,Australia
DWM Brazilian 1908 , Is it soft ???
      #177224 - 16/03/11 04:50 PM

I have a Brazilian 1908 action.
Is this action considered soft?
I want to build a high dollar custom on it in 7X57.
I will use modern high pressure loads in this rifle & shoot it very often.
Would I get shoulder set back with it? I have read that a .270 winchester caused shoulder set back after a couple of boxes of factory amunition with a 1908 action.

Should i look for a latter made action from Mauser or Brno?

--------------------
A Rifleman Knows How To Shoot, But A Hunter Knows When To Shoot

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500Nitro
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Re: DWM Brazilian 1908 , Is it soft ??? [Re: JUSTIN270]
      #177225 - 16/03/11 05:00 PM


I am no Mauser expert but I thought pre war guns were good
and that it was later one's that weren't so good.


Re the problems with a 270, 2 things I have learn't over the years, 1. You don't always know what has been done to an action if it's not in it's original condition and 2. 270 is a high pressure cartridge.

Just my HO.

.

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kamilaroi
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Re: DWM Brazilian 1908 , Is it soft ??? [Re: 500Nitro]
      #177229 - 16/03/11 06:36 PM

After so many years give it a close shave and form your own opinion.

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JUSTIN270
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Re: DWM Brazilian 1908 , Is it soft ??? [Re: kamilaroi]
      #177230 - 16/03/11 07:24 PM

The action is barreled and is in new condition. all matching numbers. I scored it a few years ago .
Its only a barreled action, no stock.
I have a Shilon match barrel i want to fit. I will be getting fully engraved and making a 1930s style stalking rifle ,so i dont want to spend money on it and a few years latter find it is to no good.

--------------------
A Rifleman Knows How To Shoot, But A Hunter Knows When To Shoot

Edited by JUSTIN270 (16/03/11 07:27 PM)

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Mike_Bailey
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Re: DWM Brazilian 1908 , Is it soft ??? [Re: JUSTIN270]
      #177231 - 16/03/11 08:57 PM

Justin, donīt know if this helps, in the blue book 2008, Brazil Mausers 1908, two configs, short rifle and rifle between $650-$1000 depending on condition (these prices from 95% condition up) which is inline with the german mausers price wise of same era but some rare exceptions. I donīt see why it should be soft !? Prices above are for complete rifles, best, Mike

Edited by Mike_Bailey (16/03/11 09:52 PM)

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500Nitro
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Re: DWM Brazilian 1908 , Is it soft ??? [Re: Mike_Bailey]
      #177232 - 16/03/11 09:13 PM


I could think of worse Mauser's to build your gun on.

At least it has the original barrel - less likely to have been stuffed with IMHO.

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500grains
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Re: DWM Brazilian 1908 , Is it soft ??? [Re: 500Nitro]
      #177237 - 17/03/11 01:24 AM

The DWM is fine for 7x57 at traditional velocities. But don't handload it up to high pressures.

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VonGruff
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Re: DWM Brazilian 1908 , Is it soft ??? [Re: 500grains]
      #177245 - 17/03/11 05:33 AM

I built my own 7x57 on a 1908 DWM and GS said it was one of the tightest and smoothest 98 action he had worked on. He said that loading to modern levels was of no concern and I do so.

On another note can anyone date a 1908 by the serial number.

Von Gruff.

--------------------
Von Gruff.

Exodus 20:1-17

Acts 4:10-12

Edited by VonGruff (17/03/11 05:38 AM)

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JUSTIN270
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Re: DWM Brazilian 1908 , Is it soft ??? [Re: 500grains]
      #177255 - 17/03/11 11:06 AM

Quote:

The DWM is fine for 7x57 at traditional velocities. But don't handload it up to high pressures.



Yes that is what i was thinking. Do you have any more information as why i cant use high pressure loads up to 50,000 psi?????
I think these recevers are soft compared to a 1930s action.

--------------------
A Rifleman Knows How To Shoot, But A Hunter Knows When To Shoot

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kamilaroi
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Re: DWM Brazilian 1908 , Is it soft ??? [Re: JUSTIN270]
      #177257 - 17/03/11 12:01 PM

Different steels and hardening processes used pre and post WW1. From memory Roy Dunlap had something to say on the matter.

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mauserand9mm
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Re: DWM Brazilian 1908 , Is it soft ??? [Re: kamilaroi]
      #177258 - 17/03/11 01:31 PM

DWM was a reknowned German company and used quality steels. One of the original Mauser brothers was involved with the company (I can't remember the details). I have a couple of Mausers in military form that were made my DWM:

- M1903 Turkish Mauser, likely an early G98made by DWM that was converted to 8x57 and M1903 configuration at the Ankara Turkish arsenal in 1935, all original stampings were removed at the same time.

- M1904/39 Portuguese Mauser (also called "Vergueiro"), made originally by DWM in 6.5 calibre and converted to 8x57 in 1939, all original stampings left intact - even the calibre designation. Small ring action that is a mix of Mauser 98 and Mannlicher - very smooth action. These used to be converted into sporting firearms. The steel is good but it is only a small ring action and it doesn't have the bolt shroud of the 98 (for deflecting gases away from the shooters face in the event of a case or primer failure). Better off left alone I reckon.

It's the Spanish actions that you have to worry about - Oviedo was the company I think, and they made M93/5 actions and rifles. Some were converted to 7.62 Nato and these are suspect in the strength of steel used. They suffer bolt lug setback with continued use with normal Nato strength loads.

I don't think that there were any crook M98 military actions made. Even towards the end of the war the steel was good. They did take shortcuts on stock metalwork and fittings though (stamped trigger guards, omitting bayonet lugs and even modified gas holes on the bolts).

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JUSTIN270
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Re: DWM Brazilian 1908 , Is it soft ??? [Re: mauserand9mm]
      #177268 - 17/03/11 05:06 PM

DWM owned Mauser in the early 1900s.
The spanish version of the 7.62 Nato was loaded at much lower pressure than the rest of the Nato countrys. That is why you cant shoot standard Nato rounds in the spanish version of the G3 automatic rifle. So convrted M93s and M98s were safe only with the Spanish made Nato round.
A bit of useless info for ya all.lol

--------------------
A Rifleman Knows How To Shoot, But A Hunter Knows When To Shoot

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500Nitro
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Re: DWM Brazilian 1908 , Is it soft ??? [Re: JUSTIN270]
      #177269 - 17/03/11 05:10 PM


Justin

Surely the G3 was made to one standard ?


Why can't you use St Nato rounds in the G3 ?
What is different ?

(I have only played with a couple of G3's here in Aus
so not something I am overly familiar with)

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JUSTIN270
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Re: DWM Brazilian 1908 , Is it soft ??? [Re: 500Nitro]
      #177270 - 17/03/11 05:56 PM

Well the G3 is realy a German (H&K) copy of the Spanish CEMTE (not sure of spelling) wich itself is a modernised version to the German WW2 STG-45 wich was experimental at the end of the war. The development was sent to spain before Germany surendered. The CEMTE can fire high pressure loads but the bolt head had to be replaced wich was done when Spain joined Nato.
So that makes the G-3 a Spanish(CEMTE) origonaly, not so much German.

So ,Yes you can fire standard Nato loads in the G-3 But not the Spanish rifle unless modified with a new bolt/breach block.

The reason for Spain to use a low pressure 7.62 was so it was contolable on full auto. The reason why the bigger standard rounds (3006, 7.9X57) were replaced in the fist place.


--------------------
A Rifleman Knows How To Shoot, But A Hunter Knows When To Shoot

Edited by JUSTIN270 (17/03/11 07:30 PM)

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mauserand9mm
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Re: DWM Brazilian 1908 , Is it soft ??? [Re: JUSTIN270]
      #177329 - 18/03/11 08:43 AM

I don't think there was ever a pressure issue with the 98s that they converted to 7.62Nato (these rifles were designated "FR8"). This was done to serve the function as a training rifle for the CETME. The sights and front metalwork of the FR8 were identical to the CETME so they looked and felt about the same, and used the same bayonet. Once proficient (enough) with the FR8s they were let loose on the CETMEs.

FN made 7.62Nato and 30/06 98s in the 1950s for Columbia (and others?) and they were otherwise the same technology and materials as the previous 98s. Like I posted earlier, I'm not aware of any 98s that had pressure concerns.

The model 98 was "the" rifle action used by most military forces around the world for 50 years - that's pretty impressive I think. Makes for an interesting hobby - there are many variations to collect (I started too late, unfortunatley).

A must have would be Robert Ball's "Mauser Military Rifles of the World" - I have a copy but need to read it again. It gives the history and variations as well as experimental rifle versions. Still, beside the point for this thread really.

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JUSTIN270
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Re: DWM Brazilian 1908 , Is it soft ??? [Re: mauserand9mm]
      #177332 - 18/03/11 11:12 AM

Thanks every one for your input. I think i may scout around for a latter made action for a while & sleep on the Brazilian for a bit.

--------------------
A Rifleman Knows How To Shoot, But A Hunter Knows When To Shoot

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tophet1
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Re: DWM Brazilian 1908 , Is it soft ??? [Re: JUSTIN270]
      #177335 - 18/03/11 12:47 PM

Quote:

Thanks every one for your input. I think i may scout around for a latter made action for a while & sleep on the Brazilian for a bit.



Wouldn't we all :P .

There were some VZ's for sale some time ago at Cleavers in brisbane from one of the Qld wholesalers. They are a very nice action.

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rigbymauser
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Re: DWM Brazilian 1908 , Is it soft ??? [Re: 500Nitro]
      #177367 - 19/03/11 05:44 AM

Some of these old actions can be "soft"..However if you just shoot pre-WW1 classic non-magnum cartridges in it, you will never get to know if it was a "soft action" or not...7x57, 8x64 etc.

Edited by rigbymauser (19/03/11 05:46 AM)

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darwinmauser
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Re: DWM Brazilian 1908 , Is it soft ??? [Re: rigbymauser]
      #177433 - 20/03/11 08:07 AM

Quote:

Some of these old actions can be "soft"..However if you just shoot pre-WW1 classic non-magnum cartridges in it, you will never get to know if it was a "soft action" or not...7x57, 8x64 etc.



+1

If your not convinced by 100 years use , a lot of which was in military service, firing thousands of cartridges with no ill effect you can send it to me . This is the same action that routinely safely handles magnum cartridges with pressures well in excess of what your contemplating. You can always get it tested for hardness and remember that to hard is not a good thing either ,they were only case hardened .

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JUSTIN270
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Reged: 15/03/11
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Loc: Tasmania ,Australia
Re: DWM Brazilian 1908 , Is it soft ??? [Re: tophet1]
      #177443 - 20/03/11 12:06 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Thanks every one for your input. I think i may scout around for a latter made action for a while & sleep on the Brazilian for a bit.



Wouldn't we all :P .

There were some VZ's for sale some time ago at Cleavers in brisbane from one of the Qld wholesalers. They are a very nice action.



Thanks for the heads up. i give them a call. Cheers for that.

--------------------
A Rifleman Knows How To Shoot, But A Hunter Knows When To Shoot

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sirrocco
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Re: DWM Brazilian 1908 , Is it soft ??? [Re: JUSTIN270]
      #177507 - 21/03/11 04:58 PM

Hi Justin,
The 1908 Brazilian is a fine action and I wouldn't hesitate to build a 7x57 Mauser on one. They are beautifully finished and as slick as duck sh=t on ice. I have seen many 7mm Rem mags and .30 cal magnums built on them without issue. If you are concerned see if you can find via "Lord Google" any incidents of a 1908 Brazilian failures. I suspect you will fail.
Many years ago I had a 1909 Argentine that is supposedly a "soft" action. The front receiver was turned down to small ring specs, the chambering 280 rem, and I made a rather significant error with a reload. A 140 grn Barnes went thru the screens at 3450fps from a 22" barrel. Yes the lugs were set back a bit and I couldnt open the bolt at all, the barrel had to be pulled, but the action was completely fine. I suspect that there are too many intellectualisations made re the hardness and softness of various actions without much in the way of hard and fast data.

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JUSTIN270
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Re: DWM Brazilian 1908 , Is it soft ??? [Re: sirrocco]
      #177510 - 21/03/11 06:00 PM

Hi sirroco
Can you go in to a bit more depth what happened?
I take it the barrel was stuffed?
If the lugs set back in to the locking shoulder, woulnt the locking shoulder have to be remachined? or was it the bolt lugs that were damaged?
Yea the action and origonal barrel are near mint condition and she is super slick.

--------------------
A Rifleman Knows How To Shoot, But A Hunter Knows When To Shoot

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sirrocco
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Re: DWM Brazilian 1908 , Is it soft ??? [Re: JUSTIN270]
      #177556 - 23/03/11 09:37 AM

Well as best I can remember, (it was 15 years ago or so) I sent the rifle to Allen Carr, the smith that built it for me and he had to pull the barrel to get the action open. He then re-assembled after carefully checking the metal work for any visible damage. He then re-installed the barrel and checked the head space which was slightly larger indicating lug set-back. He then re- headpaced the barrel and test fired and returned to me. There were no further issues. I continued to use the rifle for many years without any probs.

The lugs being set back means that the lugs are compressed thus increasing the distance between the bolt face and the rear of the chamber, therefore increasing head-space. The barrel has to be then turned further in to correct this increase in dimension. Mausers have a very coarse thread so it means that not much of a turn is required.

I am no expert in these matters but have not seen any evidence of any 1908 or 1909 Mausers blowing up because they are "soft". I wouldn't hesitate to use one in original condition. If you are really worried why not send it in for heat treatment if you can find someone in Oz to do it. Or get really carried away and send it to Germany and have the whole receiver and bolt colour case hardened. That looks way cool and will alleviate any potential concerns. Good condition 1908's are beautifully slick actions and with new bottom metal are an excellent choice for a high end custom rifle.

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DarylS
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Re: DWM Brazilian 1908 , Is it soft ??? [Re: sirrocco]
      #177591 - 24/03/11 03:07 AM

I've been using 98 Mausers of every description for my own rifles, hunting and match, since 1973. They've been dateda bout everywhere from 1912 to 1952 (I skirted 1940 to 1947) & I've never had a lick of trouble with any of them.

I've chambered them up in standard rung-out calibres - varmint and .308 match to short .300magnums, again rung out pressure wise to safe maximum loads.

I've had a couple pressure excursions with what turned out to be inapproprate powders (for that case) in some wildcats when working up loads and was damn glad they were barreled and chambered up in a 98 Mauser action - poof, smoke all over the place, no damage otherwise).

It's exciting when you think you're getting there, good speeds, good measurements, good accuracy when you fire 3 rounds perfectly - no adverse expansion and the next one, an absolutely identical load, goes whammy! smoke coming out everywhere - snick, snick, bolt opens beautifully and extracts only a chunk of semi-molten brass. Shove your pinky up into the chamber and out comes the rest of the case.(love those Improved cases) No other damage - oh, split stock and mag well blown out - no biggie - change powders and try again, starting low and working upwards.

Sometimes, just a bit sticky at the higher pressures would have been nice, though.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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