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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Single Shots & Combination Guns
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ALAN_MCKENZIE
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Reged: 24/03/04
Posts: 1214
Loc: Western Australia
??? MARTINI ???
      #17642 - 06/08/04 10:22 PM

I was given a very interesting martini firearm today and need some help to identify calibre, bore ect.
Martini action simular to 577/450 or 303.
Barrel length is 37 inches.
Rifling is a very slow twist of about 1 in 36.
A 20 gauge shotgun cartrige fits into the breech..
A 577 case is a very sloppy fit
No brand or makers name.
Barrel stamped :-WR H T , BR 20 WD.
Serial number under sight is 1032 R.
Brass butt plate and nose cap.
No bayonet fittings....
Any help would be appreciated..
Alan

--------------------
"Dogs always bark at their master"
Sir Seretse Khama.25th June 1949

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Marrakai
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Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 3596
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Re: ??? MARTINI ??? [Re: ALAN_MCKENZIE]
      #17672 - 07/08/04 01:53 PM

Sounds like it may be chambered for the 20-bore brass case, I'll try hitting the books tonight for more info.
Very long barrel for a 20-bore rifle, a target-rifle perhaps? What type of rear sight?

Just curious, are the proof-marks Brit or Belgian?
Are there any?? ...should be on the side of the barrel close to the breech if British.

A bit cliche', but it could be worth trying the Martini web-sites/forums, though I'm sure someone here will have more info.

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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ALAN_MCKENZIE
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Reged: 24/03/04
Posts: 1214
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Re: ??? MARTINI ??? [Re: Marrakai]
      #17681 - 07/08/04 11:12 PM

Thanks for reply mate.
I cant find any proof marks.Only the numbers and letters previously posted.
Rear sight is a Snider military as described in Skenertons Treatise on the British Military Martini.Pge 39
I've already checked out the martini sights without any luck.
I believe a 2 1/2 inch 600 nitro case will fit in the chamber,( a loaded 3 inch is to long )
I was going to post some pics however HUNT 101 is on the blink tonight..
Al

--------------------
"Dogs always bark at their master"
Sir Seretse Khama.25th June 1949

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DoubleD
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Reged: 23/11/03
Posts: 2437
Loc: Retired in Oklahoma
Re: ??? MARTINI ??? [Re: ALAN_MCKENZIE]
      #17685 - 08/08/04 01:21 AM

You need Volume three of the Treatise for markings found on Martini

In reply to:

:-WR H T , BR 20 WD



BR 20 WD is Birmingham repair section War department. But it would be more correct BR over 20 over <- over WD there also should be a crown over the BR

Could :-WR be <- over WD

Can you post picture of the rifle and markings?



--------------------
DD, Ret.

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470Rigby
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Reged: 23/02/04
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Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Re: ??? MARTINI ??? [Re: ALAN_MCKENZIE]
      #17694 - 08/08/04 11:13 AM

Alan

This rifle just gets curiouser and curiouser!

Apart from Westley Richards' 20 bore Faunetas and other "Ball and Shot" variants, fully rifled 20 bores are rare commodities. Hoyem does not even list a cartridge! But it does seem to have been the genesis of Jeffery's .600 NE development; Jeffery's usual modus operandi being to take an existing cartridge and either move the neck, or apply a thicker rim so that the new round would not chamber in older black powder rifles.

Not that I am suggesting that this rifle is a .600NE, but there was two case lengths; 3.0" and 2.8", so it's chamber length seems to offer little prospect of giving clues to it's origins.

That 20 Bore rifles existed is certain, I once saw a Cape Gun that chambered .600NE and 20 bore Shotgun cartridges in the rifled barrel. It was English in origin.

I suspect that the "War Dept" markings, the lack of proof marks and the 37 inch barrel length are the vital clues, the former two suggesting a military purpose. The latter???

The Military have traditionally gotten up to all sorts of things, for example the "chain shot" guns and cartridges designed by Holland and Holland for shooting down Zeppelins in WW1. Holland's also made large calibre express rifles (nicknamed "Elephant Guns") during WW1 to pierce armour plate.

I will stay tuned!

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ALAN_MCKENZIE
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Re: ??? MARTINI ??? [Re: DoubleD]
      #17708 - 08/08/04 09:27 PM

The top of the barrel is marked as follows;-

something over BR over 20 over WD

Underside of barrel near breech ;-

WRH beside small capital T followed by some sort of symbol followed by the number 1 laying horizontal

Al

--------------------
"Dogs always bark at their master"
Sir Seretse Khama.25th June 1949

Edited by ALAN_MCKENZIE (08/08/04 10:21 PM)

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DoubleD
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Re: ??? MARTINI ??? [Re: ALAN_MCKENZIE]
      #17731 - 09/08/04 07:31 PM

Here are the key pictures of Alan's gun,


This looks like a Greener pattern Martini without the Greener Safety lever.


These marks are on the bottom of the barrel The lower mark appears to be an Interim first proof mark from the London area.


These marks on the top of the barrel appear to conflict with the previous marks.By manipulating the colorI can just make out the center portion a crown over BR over 26 or 28 over a very faint broad arrow over WD. These appear to be Inspectors view marks from Birmingham Repair Section. Below that is an older almost polished off previous Inspectors view marks from Birmingham Repair Section.

At least that is my opinion based on my limited resources and experience. I used Skennertons Treatise on the Military Martini as reference for the Marks.

I would like to see a picture of the entire gun , then any marks on the iinternal part and the extractor.

Alan, does a 12 guage shotgun shell fit in that chamber?



--------------------
DD, Ret.

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ALAN_MCKENZIE
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Re: ??? MARTINI ??? [Re: DoubleD]
      #17734 - 09/08/04 09:26 PM

No mate a 12 gauge shell will not fit.
Overall length is aprox 54 inches.
Have sent you a photo or two.
Al

--------------------
"Dogs always bark at their master"
Sir Seretse Khama.25th June 1949

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DoubleD
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Reged: 23/11/03
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Re: ??? MARTINI ??? [Re: ALAN_MCKENZIE]
      #17829 - 11/08/04 08:15 AM

Bore diameter at muzzle is .587 to .597? That is 577 NE range.

Pictures sure look like a military pattern rifle.

Very interesting indeed.

I still think your answer will come from Contact with Greener.

Have you made a chamber cast?







--------------------
DD, Ret.

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ALAN_MCKENZIE
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Re: ??? MARTINI ??? [Re: DoubleD]
      #118815 - 13/11/08 11:23 PM

Thought I would drag this to the top to see if anybody has any fresh idea's.
Al

--------------------
"Dogs always bark at their master"
Sir Seretse Khama.25th June 1949

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DoubleD
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Re: ??? MARTINI ??? [Re: ALAN_MCKENZIE]
      #118817 - 14/11/08 01:08 AM

Alan,

Send the rifle up to me and I'll check it over and write it up for the book and put the gun in the archives. I'll send you back a free autographed copy of the book, if I ever publish it.

Seriously, did you do a chamber cast yet? A chamber cast will show the chamber shape and give you something to measure from.

I wonder if that could be a Snider or P53 barrel someone screwed on that action. Was the Snider or P53 barrel that long? Look at the extractor and extractor cuts, are they rough or crude?

I need to get a copy of Skennerton's Broad Arrow and check the marks again.

Have you shot it yet?

--------------------
DD, Ret.

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ChrisPer
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Loc: Australia
Re: ??? MARTINI ??? [Re: DoubleD]
      #118818 - 14/11/08 01:43 AM

Alan, I have my Cerrosafe to do the chamber cast if you want.
Send me a pm with address and phone - I am in Perth.

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ChrisPer
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Re: ??? MARTINI ??? [Re: ChrisPer]
      #118916 - 15/11/08 07:49 PM

I don't have any references on it but I wonder if this is a prisons gun. There were some Martini prison guard guns/rifles (not sure) made with a cartridge not available in civilian life, so there was no resupply if prisoners escaped with a guard's gun.

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DoubleD
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Re: ??? MARTINI ??? [Re: ChrisPer]
      #118925 - 16/11/08 12:32 AM

Chris,

I believe you are thinking of the 13/14 guage three prong firing pin model Greener EG shot gun, and this gun is not one of those.

--------------------
DD, Ret.

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ChrisPer
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Re: ??? MARTINI ??? [Re: DoubleD]
      #118955 - 16/11/08 11:04 AM

Ah, thanks DD.
Is there an illustration of that Greener anywhere on the Web?

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DoubleD
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Reged: 23/11/03
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Re: ??? MARTINI ??? [Re: ChrisPer]
      #118962 - 16/11/08 05:13 PM

Which Greener? GP, EG, Mk III?

If you mean the full stock Guard gun, I can probably come up with one.

--------------------
DD, Ret.

Edited by DoubleD (16/11/08 05:14 PM)

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ALAN_MCKENZIE
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Loc: Western Australia
Re: ??? MARTINI ??? UPDATED [Re: ALAN_MCKENZIE]
      #124761 - 22/01/09 12:44 AM

3 Groove rifling slugs at .585-----590

[image][/image]

So what calibre or bore is it??
Al

--------------------
"Dogs always bark at their master"
Sir Seretse Khama.25th June 1949

Edited by ALAN_MCKENZIE (22/01/09 12:58 AM)

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beleg2
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Reged: 15/08/07
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Loc: Bahía Blanca - Argentina
Re: ??? MARTINI ??? UPDATED [Re: ALAN_MCKENZIE]
      #124767 - 22/01/09 01:19 AM

Alan,
Is groove diameter .590 or 680?
Looks like it was rechambered by someone to accept 20Ga.
20Ga Chamber:
.752 Rim
.696 base
.685 mouth
2.57 lenght
from 1884 Kynoch catalog.

We see this from time to time here, done by guy thinking they are gunsmiths.
Martin

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ALAN_MCKENZIE
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Reged: 24/03/04
Posts: 1214
Loc: Western Australia
Re: ??? MARTINI ??? UPDATED [Re: beleg2]
      #124772 - 22/01/09 01:48 AM

beleg 2,the rifling is 3 groove and slugs out at585...590.
Because of the thickness of the rifling its hard to get a groove depth because the rifling is the same width as the groove.
Does that make sense?
Al

--------------------
"Dogs always bark at their master"
Sir Seretse Khama.25th June 1949

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beleg2
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Re: ??? MARTINI ??? UPDATED [Re: ALAN_MCKENZIE]
      #124810 - 22/01/09 06:28 AM

Alan,
I ask because in your draw you put .680" where I presume it is the begining of the rifling.
I do not see any way you can shot .590" bullets from this chamber.
JMHO
Martin

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ALAN_MCKENZIE
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Posts: 1214
Loc: Western Australia
Re: ??? MARTINI ??? UPDATED [Re: beleg2]
      #124846 - 22/01/09 01:06 PM

Martin,the measurements were taken of a cerosafe chamber casting.
Al

--------------------
"Dogs always bark at their master"
Sir Seretse Khama.25th June 1949

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Taylor416
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Reged: 25/11/04
Posts: 161
Loc: Central West, New South Wales....
Re: ??? MARTINI ??? UPDATED [Re: ALAN_MCKENZIE]
      #125914 - 05/02/09 08:57 PM

Did you ever find out what calibre this was mate??

cheers
Chris

--------------------
Love to hunt!

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ALAN_MCKENZIE
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Reged: 24/03/04
Posts: 1214
Loc: Western Australia
Re: ??? MARTINI ??? UPDATED [Re: Taylor416]
      #126013 - 06/02/09 11:07 PM

I've come to the conclusion that it is a 20 bore rifled martini.
I put a couple of packets of 20 bore slugs through it and it seems to shoot extremely well .
5 inch group at 100 yards.
Al

--------------------
"Dogs always bark at their master"
Sir Seretse Khama.25th June 1949

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faeroe
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Re: ??? MARTINI ??? [Re: ALAN_MCKENZIE]
      #127985 - 25/02/09 06:37 AM

There was the 20/.577. I believe it was an Alex.r Henry cartridge. Don't know the specs on it, however.

-Update: See the following link. Apparently the 20/.577 was .585.

australianhunting.net/AHN_Journal/library/oneoftheharderones.html

Edited by faeroe (25/02/09 06:43 AM)

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ALAN_MCKENZIE
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Re: ??? MARTINI ??? [Re: faeroe]
      #128044 - 25/02/09 11:06 PM

Faeroe,thanks for your input.
Tony,(MARRAKAI)and I have discussed this rifle over the phone on several occations.
Al

--------------------
"Dogs always bark at their master"
Sir Seretse Khama.25th June 1949

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