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NitroXAdministrator
.700 member


Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 39259
Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...
GSP training advice
      #174091 - 25/01/11 07:09 PM

My GSP in now three years old.

A couple of problems which I would like to train him out of.

1. When playing fetch or during training sessions, he loves to be cheeky and run past me, instead of coming straight to me. And hold onto whatever he has a bit longer.

I think he should be coming straight to me, sit down and then present the toy or whatever straight to me.

I know about the training techniques such as running backwards so the dog follows/chases you instead.

He is excellent in behaviour on the sit command. Used to be great on the "come" command, but needs a bit of reinforcing on that one currently, generally good.

With a toy he will "give" it up a little reluctantly, but holds it lightly and will release it reasonably well. See 2.

2. When retrieving a toy, when he sits near me, usually a step or two too far away, he again is cheeky and turns his head away. If I reach around his head and grab the toy, he will release it pretty well.

But IMO he should be presenting the toy to me, not turning his head away.

3. More seriously, when he has say a rabbit in his mouth, he has developed a hard mouth, actually death's tight grip on the rabbit. He doesn't want to give it up. I usually need to pry it out of his mouth.

Of concern the last rabbit, he did this, and when it was removed, tried to bite my hand. He never bites hard, but it was definite aggression. Rightly or wrongly, my reaction to any dog that growls seriously or tries to bite his master, he gets a quick whack around the head, and a yelling at.

A problem is that as a farm dog he has a lot of freedom and can self hunt a lot.

4. As such he has learned to love CHASING rabbits instead of pointing them. With a dog having his freedom, not sure how to handle this other than have a puppy having much limited freedom from an early age?


Constructive advice, tips and training methods please. Thanks.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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450_EXPRESS
.333 member


Reged: 04/01/09
Posts: 341
Loc: S.C.Montana
Re: GSP training advice [Re: NitroX]
      #174109 - 26/01/11 01:53 AM

A couple of tools I've found very helpful are a check cord, some of that 1/4" nylon rope about 30' long works well, and a whistle. The check cord gives you a longer handle to be able to catch and control the dog (low tech shock collar) and the whistle becomes like the voice of God, ignore and the hand of doom will descend.

For #1, This is where check cord is handy. Just clip it to his collar and let it drag behind him. When he runs past you just step on the cord, grab it, repeat the command come and reel him in at the same time.

I like to work in the whistle too. I give one sharp short blast as a STOP command. With the checkcord in hand, let him be walking around give the whistle blast and stop him. Just repeat till he gets the idea. When he understands, then give it more distance. It seems when they get cheeky, they'll keep just enough distance so you can't grag em, but you can get the cord. Same with using the whistle for the "come here" command. A series of quick rapid short bursts works good. This can be helpful for #4. An electric shock collar may be helpful too. I tried one once but the dog was so hard headed and tough that the check cord and hand of DOOM (when needed) got through better.


Richard Wolters has a series of books that I like. They're out of print, I think, but you can find copies on places like ebay.

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gatsby
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Reged: 05/09/05
Posts: 862
Loc: inland valley CA USA
Re: GSP training advice [Re: NitroX]
      #174118 - 26/01/11 05:10 AM

There is a progression in training a pointing dog. Your dog has a high prey drive and sounds strong willed. I would go back and reinforce basic obedience,come whoa,... then move forward with holding point, steady to wing and steady to shot. Make him earn everything, treats, food, etc. Can you get pen raised birds for training? Has your dog been on wild birds and will he point them? Why don't you take a look at www.shorthairs.net good ideas and differing opinions for GSP owners on that site. Definitely need a check cord but I wouldn't use a shock collar till the dog knows what you want from each command.

--------------------
"Recoil is insignificant when there is a tiger on the head of your elephant" The Maharaja of Cooch Behar



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zephyr
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Reged: 20/09/05
Posts: 51
Re: GSP training advice [Re: NitroX]
      #174645 - 01/02/11 11:28 PM

Good advice by all, going back to basics seems to be a good start, 15 mins a day is all you need and and finishing on a good note is always important. Use the check cord and when he retrieves gentle reel him into you praising him all the way if you want him to sit then make him sit. Don't be in a hurry to take what ever is in his mouth with a young dog it is a "MINE!!" thing and he will want to keep it...;praise him pet him tell him he is the greatest dog ever and you will notice that he will gradually lower his head and relax.....take your thumb and roll his lower lip over his lower teeth and gentle pinch them together if he wont give and ask him to give....Hard mouths are a tough one and I think you have two options; lots of reps and patience or teaching your dog to force fetch which can be brutal and may be best done by a proffessional, but when done right will solve your problem.... best of luck,

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gryphon
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Reged: 01/01/03
Posts: 5487
Loc: Sambar ground/Victoria/Austral...
Re: GSP training advice [Re: zephyr]
      #174655 - 02/02/11 04:00 AM

Making the dummy a real bastard to bite in a hard manner IE perhaps a wrap or two of b/wire. The dog will only grab as hard as necessary to retrieve.The dog will not hurt itself either as it is in command of the bite pressure.

JH you have a problem here in this case where the dog is actually of the opinion that he is the master and is or has been actually challenging you. I suspect that he has been allowed to get away with many small things that have accumulated over the years,hence the current situation of where he offered a bite of your hand. That to me is the ultimate "no no" and in my farming situation the dog would be on the DMW list.

I broke three dogs in all together with my last litter and used a training collar to reinforce my training and I will recommend the use of one in conjunction with decent training methods. These dogs do an average of 10 k`s a day as I do my rounds of fences,cattle and crops,they HAVE to be under my control espec in a farming situation

With a collar let the dog grab say a live chook and hit him with a tickle..he wont touch a chook again as "they bite" thus use the collar for any problems such as the simplification above. I reckon I would have him giving the rabbit up very obediently but it is of most importance to not over do any training as he wont touch the next one.

The collar hasnt been on a dog here for a very very long time unlike some that use them every time the dog accompanies them out into the field or wherever.

Training collars are of bugger all use to those that dont have the the fundamentals of training a dog already.

And to those that say they are a cruel item,I say go jump!

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BillA
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Reged: 18/04/11
Posts: 22
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: GSP training advice [Re: gryphon]
      #179505 - 20/04/11 02:59 PM

There are so many problems here.
What you need to do is go back to basicis IMO. That means formal obedience training.
I agree with gryphon in that e-collars can be a great tool for training a dog BUT, only when you know how to train a dog to start with.
No offense but many of the problems you describe I believe are due to your not knowing how to train this type of dog, or deal with these types of problems, correct?
If you then resort to using a collar as a substitute then I reckon you're starting down the road to disaster.
If you have problems with 'hard mouth' now, wait till you intorduce the collar.
The dog is a bit willful right?
He'll bite that bloody rabbit that bites him - have no doubt about that.
NO no no.
I have no objections to collars at all (in fact I use one occasionally to train my own dogs) but this behaviour wont be solved by an e-collar, at least not by you using one with this dog.
Mark my words you'll only make things far worse if you start using an e-collar on this dog.

These are not definitive answers, just suggestions.
There's no absolute right or wrong, just whatever works, BUT, these problems will take thinking from you. So THINK!

First of all - the coming in/running past problem.
Find OR CREATE a place where the dog cannot physically get past you.
I have made boards whcih stick into the ground that I can place so the dog can;'t get past.
Use fences (stand in a gate way). With pups use a hall way.
YOU are the engineer of your dog's success.
YOU have to create a physical situation whereby your dog can't get past.

Sitting away from you to keep the item.
Dont be in a hurry to take it from the dog but when you do make sure the dog knows it's yours.
Start with holding it yourself before giving it to the dog.
If he jumps the give him an open handed whack on the nose.
He must learn that what is in your hand is yours & he cannot take when it suits him.
Now, the sitting. Start without a dummy. Get him to come right in close to you to sit.
How, offer a treat at crotch level. he only get's it when he comes & sits close enough.
As he get's better start moving back.
I can tell my dogs to sit, move back, & have them shuffle toward me without taking their bum off the gound. In time the dog will leanr to come in close to sit.
Next - giving it up.
Ok, he's possessive. He wants to keep it. Fine.
Find something he wants more. What? - FOOD.
Food is a BIG talker.
Yes there comes a time were you dont want to dog dependent on receiving treats but for now give it a try. Dont worry if he drops the item as long as he lets go to receive his reward.
If he starts dropping on delivery it's an easy fix to then get any dog to hold.
This one would be as easy as pie to get to hold. he's already shown you he will.
With the rabbit I'd sit him down, put ahand under his mouth, then wave a piece of cooked sausage under his nose (in your fist so he cant grab at it). When he drops the rabbit praise him & let him have the food. He'll soon get the idea.

The chasing I'll go into a bit later. That's a whole nutha ball game.

--------------------
Bill Allen 'Windkael' Epagneuls Bretons. Melbourne Australia.

Edited by BillA (20/04/11 03:01 PM)

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