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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Big Bore Rifles
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bigjedd
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Reged: 23/02/10
Posts: 37
Loc: Gippsland,Victoria,Australia
416 ruger popping primers
      #174006 - 24/01/11 08:35 PM

I have a Ruger Alaskan in 416 ruger. On the weekend I was out in an old quarry with my friend doing some load developement for a couple of varmint rifles we have. In between groupings we were firing the 416Ruger using up some Hornady 400gr factory ammo to get the cases for reloading and just having fun. We had fired around 55 factory rounds between us over a period of a couple of hours when suddenly the factory ammo started popping primers. We stopped using the rifle and when I got home I did a search on the internet for any similar problems.

There was a big bore user who said he had a similar problem with a big bore rifle and suggested it was caused by the build up of copper in the lead causing the pressure to rise to the point where the primers pop and he also suggested that the rifle should be cleaned more regularly.

As the rifle wouldnt under normal hunting situation have this many rounds fired continuously I wonder if he was correct. I have since cleaned the barrel and there was alot of copper in there. Since then I have fired another 10 rounds and no further problem .

My question is Has anyone else experienced this and is it normal for big bores or just this cartridge?

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450_Ackley
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Reged: 06/02/03
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Loc: Darling Downs, Qld Australia
Re: 416 ruger popping primers [Re: bigjedd]
      #174030 - 25/01/11 06:10 AM

Bigjedd,

Yes, heard of the same problem up here as well, I have a 416 Ruger, but made up on a P14 action, I haven't personally shot factory ammunition myself, but I have had problems getting any velocity from it, about 2150-2200 fps is about all I can get. I also have a 416 Taylor, and can get better velocities from it, which I suppose speaks something of it's efficiency. I'm assuming the Hornady factory ammunition is loaded to the hilt, with non-canister propellants.
I have just got my copy of the #8 Hornady manual and even Hornady only list 1 load that makes 2350 fps, the majority of loads sit in the 2150-2250 fps range.

The gunsmith that made my rifle has also made a couple of Browning BLR's in 416 Ruger, and I know one of them has had serious pressure problems using factory ammunition, same thing as yours, when he opens the lever, the primers are falling out of the cases. The other rifle has just been handloaded.

I shoot some cast bullets in mine as well, and noticed early on that the throat length seems very short indeed, and I'm starting to wonder if that's no part of the problem.
My gunsmith is ordering a 416 throating reamer, I'm going to get mine taken out a little, mainly for the cast bullets, but I'm going to chronogrpah a few loads before and after to see what, if any difference that makes.

I'm also looking heavily at trying Reloder 17, as it seems to be a good one, but that's according to Quickload.
In any case, a 400 grain bullet at 2150-2200 will pretty much knock anything over I would ever intend shooting with it.

Regards,
David.

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tophet1
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Reged: 15/09/07
Posts: 1873
Loc: NSW, Australia
Re: 416 ruger popping primers [Re: bigjedd]
      #174031 - 25/01/11 06:20 AM

With 50 rounds through it without a clean, I would suggest the answer has already been given to you. Had the same problem with a .243 barrel which I was not cleaning properly. (It also had other 'issues').

The only way to check is to clean it and shoot again. Did accuracy fall off as well ? My .243 didn't, it just blew out the head of the case.

Edit: The only other possibility is a head space issue with a different batch of brass/ammo. Was it all the same batch ?

460 Ackley. I was considering a wildcat 9.3mm Ruger but with velocity results like yours I may shelve the idea.

Edited by tophet1 (25/01/11 06:28 AM)

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500Nitro
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Re: 416 ruger popping primers [Re: tophet1]
      #174032 - 25/01/11 06:28 AM


Doesn't sound good.

I've fired more than 50 rounds on cull hunts so I would get it looked at if once you shoot it again with a clean barrel it still does it.

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450_Ackley
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Reged: 06/02/03
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Re: 416 ruger popping primers [Re: 500Nitro]
      #174034 - 25/01/11 06:42 AM

Tophet,
your 9.3 Ruger might be OK, because I believe the 375 Ruger does not show the same problems, apparently it is a very good cartridge, but I have not played with one myself.
Wouldn't a 9.3 x 64 do about the same thing though?

DC

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bigjedd
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Reged: 23/02/10
Posts: 37
Loc: Gippsland,Victoria,Australia
Re: 416 ruger popping primers [Re: 450_Ackley]
      #174038 - 25/01/11 07:08 AM

The rifle only did it with the hornady 400 gr factory ammo.
My reloads using the same cases and 340gr woodleighs never gave a problem.Over five shots they are chronagraphed at an average of 2570FPS

Once I cleaned the barrel I never had any other problems Nor did I have problems with the 340gr loads.

Tophet
The 416 Ruger is only made by one manufacturer. All the factory loads had the same batch number on the packets.

Like 450 Ackley said I think it has to do with the length of the lead in the throat combined with a build up of copper at the start of the rifling. I suspect the projectile may still be in the case neck when it arrives at the lead and this is causing the extra pressure.

I will do a measurement and check this out.

Thanks for your replies.

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tophet1
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Re: 416 ruger popping primers [Re: 450_Ackley]
      #174040 - 25/01/11 07:14 AM

http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=174039&page=0&vc=#Post174039

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DoubleD
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Reged: 23/11/03
Posts: 2399
Loc: Retired in Oklahoma
Re: 416 ruger popping primers [Re: tophet1]
      #174110 - 26/01/11 01:57 AM

There is another possible cause for this. What was the air temperature the day you were shooting?

When shooting quantities of high performance rounds or load using certain powders when the air temperature it high it is not uncommon for pressure to increase and primers to pierce.

My 22-250 best load is with H380. Fire more the 10 or 15 round in temperatures above 85F and bolt lift gets hard, primers pierce, and heads start extruding. Ruined a North Texas prairie dog hunt one time because of it.

Something to consider.

--------------------
DD, Ret.

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450_Ackley
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Re: 416 ruger popping primers [Re: DoubleD]
      #174130 - 26/01/11 06:36 AM

I'm not sold on the copper build up issue, as one of the 416 Rugers I know of did it with the very first 3 shots out of the brand new barrel, certainly wouldn't have been copper fouled.
Double D's theory on the air temp might be plausible, but if the factory ammunition is loaded THAT hot, enough to expand primer pockets to the point of a new primer not even being able to be re-seated, then in my humble opinion, the ammunition here is the issue.
I'd say Hornady wanted to break the magic 2400 fps figure, and kept going until they did, marketing hype and all that.

I'm currently waiting on chamber reamer prints from PTG, it is their reamer my gunsmith used to do the 3 rifles around here, wanting to see what amount of leade they set.

DC

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FATBOY404
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Reged: 14/11/09
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Re: 416 ruger popping primers [Re: 450_Ackley]
      #174132 - 26/01/11 07:26 AM

While it is not ideal to fire 50 plus rounds without a clean it shouldn't build pressures that much to blow primers.

My 9.3x62 would have fired that many at the momment as my cleaning gear is at my house that I cant get to with the floods.

When roo shooting I would fire 80-100 rounds a night from a 220 swift,22-250 and 223 without problems.

My Father doesn't know what a cleaning rod is and would have fired hundreds upon hundreds of 338 win mags without cleaning it.

My money is on Hornady loading their ammo to within an inch of its life ( and yours) .

--------------------
"WHATEVER BLOWS YOUR HAIR BACK"

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bigjedd
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Reged: 23/02/10
Posts: 37
Loc: Gippsland,Victoria,Australia
Re: 416 ruger popping primers [Re: FATBOY404]
      #174133 - 26/01/11 07:44 AM

I did think it may have been the Factory ammo and have sent an email twice now to Hornady on this issue but so far no answer. Maybe I will try A third email.

What puzzle me is we had fired at least 2 packets of factory ammo from the same batch and no problem then half way through the third packet the problem showed up. All 3 packets have lot number 3082057 all 3 packets are Hornady 400gr DGX factory ammo. Once the barrel was cleaned it was ok.

The weather on that day was overcast with temperature around the 25 degree mark all day. If it is factory ammo then I can only conclude it is due to poor quality control not ideal when you should be able to buy this ammo of the shelf and hunt Africa - one of the hottest continents on earth - with it.

All the cases that popped the primers are useless now as the new primer just falls out of the pocket.

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bigjedd
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Reged: 23/02/10
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Loc: Gippsland,Victoria,Australia
Re: 416 ruger popping primers [Re: bigjedd]
      #174272 - 27/01/11 11:42 PM

Received this respons from Ruger today.
There may have been an issue with your ammo. You could check with the ammunition manufacturer to see if they have had any problems with that batch. If the problem occurs again, you can contact our Australian distributor and they can inspect your rifle:

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm????????

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450_Ackley
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Reged: 06/02/03
Posts: 583
Loc: Darling Downs, Qld Australia
Re: 416 ruger popping primers [Re: bigjedd]
      #174285 - 28/01/11 06:03 AM

Given that there is only one ammunition manufacturer at this point in time, and it was the first item they mentioned in your response, I'd say it's a fair bet they have had the same problems before, but aren't prepared to point the finger at anyone.

Secondly, what's the Australian distributor going to do? Look at your rifle for 2 minutes and say "Yeh, it looks allright."

DC

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Ben
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Reged: 22/08/08
Posts: 1917
Loc: Northern Territory, Australia
Re: 416 ruger popping primers [Re: 450_Ackley]
      #174294 - 28/01/11 07:04 AM

Unreal. You don't need something that finicky, eh.

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Con
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Reged: 24/05/04
Posts: 261
Loc: Victoria
Re: 416 ruger popping primers [Re: 450_Ackley]
      #174357 - 29/01/11 03:44 AM

Quote:

Bigjedd,
The gunsmith that made my rifle has also made a couple of Browning BLR's in 416 Ruger, and I know one of them has had serious pressure problems using factory ammunition, same thing as yours, when he opens the lever, the primers are falling out of the cases. The other rifle has just been handloaded.



Get the gunsmith to slug the barrel for size.
Cheers...
Con

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bigjedd
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Reged: 23/02/10
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Loc: Gippsland,Victoria,Australia
Re: 416 ruger popping primers [Re: Con]
      #174379 - 29/01/11 10:28 AM

Con thanks for that information. Being as this is the standard factory Ruger Alaskan and not an aftermarket replacement barrel I would have thought the bore would have been ok but I will get it slugged just in Case. Biggest problem is trying to find a decent gunsmith close to Gippsland.
The only bloke that was any good dosen,t do that work anymore.

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Con
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Reged: 24/05/04
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Re: 416 ruger popping primers [Re: bigjedd]
      #174400 - 29/01/11 09:18 PM

bigjedd,
Response was more aimed towards 450 Ackley and the gunsmith that built the BLR's. If he used locally produced barrels, I'd suggest slugging the one that showed pressure signs as it wouldn't be the first local barrel to be grossly under sized.

In your case, I'd be interested to see whether you still have a problem now that you've cleaned the rifle and put some rounds through it. It'd be interesting to keep a log book and just keep shooting to see whether the issue arises at a similar round count as before.

Maybe chronograph the ammunition as well ... about a decade ago I had some Rem 45/70 loads that gave me a shot string that averaged at 1630fps when it should have been 1310fps.

Weird stuff happens...
Cheers...
Con

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450_Ackley
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Re: 416 ruger popping primers [Re: Con]
      #174417 - 30/01/11 06:53 AM

Con,
The 2 BLR's in question both have Pac-Nor barrels, so don't expect them to be undersize.
My P14 has a TSE C/M barrel, and I know it's tight, that's why I can't seem to get much grunt out of it, although after getting my copy of the Hornady 8th edition manual, my loads chronograph similar to the manual.
My 416 Taylor has a stainless TSE barrel, which is lapped by Tony, he does not lap C/M barrels unless you request it, and pay for it!
Oddly, I can get better velocities out of the Taylor, without pressure problems.
I'm starting to think the Taylor is about the most efficient of the 416's, grains of powder to velocity produced.

Not sold on the 416 Ruger by any stretch at this point in time.

David

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Con
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Reged: 24/05/04
Posts: 261
Loc: Victoria
Re: 416 ruger popping primers [Re: 450_Ackley]
      #174419 - 30/01/11 08:30 AM

David,
No problem ... it's not just a local maker thing though although the incidence seems higher ... stuff ups do slip through. A local gunsmith I now use has had both local and imported barrels with bloopers ... he got that nervous that he purchased a borescope and inspects ALL barrels and slugs them prior to touching them.

Slugging the factory Ruger barrel would be worthwhile just to rule out the possibility ... but I reckon its an ammunition issue rather than rifle.

I whole-heartedly agree on the 416Taylor ... which 'smith built the BLRs? I'm ordering a 416cal blank later in February/March. Dont know what I'll do with it yet ... but at $150 delivered ... it can sit in the cupboard.
Cheers...
Con

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450_Ackley
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Reged: 06/02/03
Posts: 583
Loc: Darling Downs, Qld Australia
Re: 416 ruger popping primers [Re: Con]
      #174421 - 30/01/11 09:42 AM

Con,
Jim Kent, Buffalo Gunsmithing in Toowoomba QLD is doing the BLR's. He's done a few now, starts with 300 Win Mag's, simple rebarrel. The ones he has done are the take-down ones, and he has someone making the adapters that Browning won't sell you to have a set of interchangable barrels if you wish in various calibres, with the complete take down feature, unscrew one barrel, screw the other one in and go shoot.

David.

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Rule303
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Re: 416 ruger popping primers [Re: bigjedd]
      #174738 - 02/02/11 09:15 PM

These are just my thoughts on the issue, most have already been covered.

Ruger & Hornady where trying to get 416 Rigby, 24 or 26 inch barrel performance out of a 20 inch tube. The pressure, even with the special developed propellants has to be right on max. If this is the case any warming of the propellant- unless temp stabilised like the AR powders- is going to really be pushing the safety envelope.

The Hornady projectiles- DGS- in my 416 Rigby have a bit more push in them than my handloads with Bertram and Woodleigh pills but produce over 100fps less at the muzzle. These Hornady pills may have harder lead or jacket then the others.

The lead in the CZ550 Rigby is certainly long enough and it seems that in the Ruger it is short. This in itself is not good as far as reducing pressure.

Combine any or all of the above and problems are likely especially if the copper has really fouled an already tight barrel.

As some have not had any pressure problems with their 416 Rugers it is also possible that some barrels could be tighter or throats shorter. As con said it may pay to get the factory barrel slugged.

Another thought comes to mind. Did any of the first shots from magazine have the problem or only no2 onwards. Just thinking the projies might not of been crimped properly and have been forced back into the case and compressed the powder????

Cheers
Greg

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bigjedd
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Re: 416 ruger popping primers [Re: Rule303]
      #174780 - 03/02/11 08:27 PM

Greg
The Ruger only holds 3 in the mag and one up the spout which was how I had them loaded for the shooting we were doing. On reflection it has always been the third or 4th shot to play up.
As they were factory loads I was assuming the crimp would have been done at the factory and should have been ok.This would mean an under crimped load at the factory which would be possible as I wouldnt think they would trim all the cases to the same length.

Because the boot from the factory ammo was more noticable when they popped and felt like the pressure was high I am tending to think it may have been a combination of
A) The lead being a little short
B) The dirty Barrel- definately my fault here.
C) The recoil causing the bullet to move into the case.

I have had no problem with handloads using 340 gr woodleighs and I have shot nearly 2 packets of woodleighs through the rifle. Havent had any more trouble with the factory 400grs either since cleaning the bore.

Would it be possible that the heat from firing a lot of loads- 40 odd rounds over maybe 45 minutes through the rifle would cause the cartridge to heat up and then create higher pressure?

In hindsight I doubt you would fire that many rounds during a normal hunt and maybe this also added to the problem.

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Con
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Reged: 24/05/04
Posts: 261
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Re: 416 ruger popping primers [Re: bigjedd]
      #174800 - 04/02/11 06:06 AM

Quote:



Would it be possible that the heat from firing a lot of loads- 40 odd rounds over maybe 45 minutes through the rifle would cause the cartridge to heat up and then create higher pressure?



Not really ... most of the chemical components used in powders are not very good heat conductors eg the graphite coating. When talking temperature sensitivity, its important to remember its not ambient temperature but the temperature of the powder column itself (ie. conditioned temperature) and that takes awhile to come up to ambient temperatures or greater. It can happen though as when ammunition is left in a car etc... or allowed to sit for awhile in a hot chamber. But during the course of firing I doubt it'd matter.

Compression of the powder column due to a slipping crimp is a very real possibility. Mark and measure a loaded round and let it sit in the bottom of the magazine whilst shooting for say 10-20 rounds ... then compare it afterwards.
Cheers...
Con

Edited by Con (04/02/11 06:07 AM)

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bigjedd
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Reged: 23/02/10
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Re: 416 ruger popping primers [Re: Con]
      #174802 - 04/02/11 07:26 AM

Unfortunately or maybe its fortunately I dont have any more factory ammo left to try but I need to get another packet soon so will check it out then
As I said I am not having any problems with reloads so I am tending to think it may be related to the factory crimp

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FATBOY404
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Reged: 14/11/09
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Re: 416 ruger popping primers [Re: bigjedd]
      #174817 - 04/02/11 03:14 PM

Mark and measure a loaded round and let it sit in the bottom of the magazine whilst shooting for say 10-20 rounds ... then compare it afterwards.

Does this ever happen in real life ?.Most loads will jump the crimp with that many rounds.
Everyone I know rotates their bullets (bottom to top) ever chance they get between each volley and with a three shot mag it wouldn't happen too often that the bottom one stays in the mag for ten shots.

--------------------
"WHATEVER BLOWS YOUR HAIR BACK"

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