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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Big Bore Rifles
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450_Ackley
.375 member


Reged: 06/02/03
Posts: 583
Loc: Darling Downs, Qld Australia
WARNING - Barnes 375 H&H load data
      #173943 - 24/01/11 06:31 AM

A little while ago I was asked to put a 375 H&H load through Quickload to see what the predicted velocity and pressure was, this load was 2 grains under max from the Barnes number 4 manual (1st printing) using a 270 Grain TSX.
The powder in question was Winchester 748. The results predicted a velocity of around 2600 fps, but more frighteningly (is that a word?) a pressure of 89 000 psi.
Fatboy404 and I put our collective heads together and had a think about this, after looking up all the other Barnes manuals it was noted that the number 4 manual is the first one they used 748 in the 375 H&H, all the others use Win 760 (along with all the usual powders).
I e-mailed Barnes to ask the question, thinking maybe a typo, should have been 760 instead of 748.
Below is the actual reply I received from Barnes.

David

We pulled the Win. 748 data after the second printing of the number four manual, because as you noticed it was giving too much pressure. Please disregard any data that uses Win. 748 in the 375 H&H Magnum.





Thanks,

Ryan Farr | Consumer Services
Barnes Bullets, LLC

38 North Frontage Road, PO Box 620, Mona, UT 84645
Phone 435-856-1000 | Fax 435-856-1040 | ryanf@barnesbullets.com
Freedom Group Family of Companies: Remington | Marlin | Bushmaster Firearms | DPMS / Panther Arms | H&R | Barnes Bullets | Advanced Armament Corp | Mountain Khakis | EOTAC | Dakota Arms | Parker Gun


I'm posting this here, not to give Barnes a hard time, but just to alert any other fellow shooter around the world to the mistake and please DO NOT use Winchester 748 load data from the 1st printing of the Barnes #4 manual.

Regards,
David.

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CHAPUISARMES
.416 member


Reged: 16/01/08
Posts: 2908
Loc: DUBBO, NSW, AUSTRALIA
Re: WARNING - Barnes 375 H&H load data [Re: 450_Ackley]
      #173960 - 24/01/11 08:47 AM

Ouch, that could have been very nasty... Glad you both picked it up....

.

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Rule303
.450 member


Reged: 05/07/09
Posts: 5063
Loc: Woodford Qld
Re: WARNING - Barnes 375 H&H load data [Re: 450_Ackley]
      #174735 - 02/02/11 08:32 PM

Just saw this post. Thanks David. I have just gone and scrub the 748 info out of my Barnes manual.

Cheers

Greg

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bigdog
.375 member


Reged: 05/02/06
Posts: 559
Loc: Southern Illinois
Re: WARNING - Barnes 375 H&H load data [Re: Rule303]
      #175703 - 17/02/11 05:11 PM

Sounds like a law suit waiting to happen. They should recall all of those early books with the incorrect data.

--------------------
Kyle, I love you buddy, Dad

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GroovyMike
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Reged: 07/04/09
Posts: 229
Loc: NY
Re: WARNING - Barnes 375 H&H load data [Re: bigdog]
      #175725 - 18/02/11 12:37 AM

Thanks for teh warning!

--------------------
Delight yourself in the Lord and He will give you the desires of your heart. Psalm 37:4

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CptCurlAdministrator
.450 member


Reged: 01/05/04
Posts: 5284
Loc: Fincastle, Botetourt County, V...
Re: WARNING - Barnes 375 H&H load data [Re: GroovyMike]
      #175755 - 18/02/11 09:42 PM

Yeah, just like they should recall all the "X" bullets that have screwed up the barrels of some fine double rifles. "There's not a problem."

Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 27006
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: WARNING - Barnes 375 H&H load data [Re: CptCurl]
      #175760 - 19/02/11 01:40 AM

Not sure how to 'take' your post, Curl.

Every powder company has at one time, screwed up in a loading manual - ever hear - "Don't use data for old Speer Manuals?" Well, it's true if you go back to the 70's stuff. I still have one, only hot in some guns. Nowadays, they seem to run the other direction.

The 748 Data will not blow a .375 up - even if it did produce 89,000psi - the program usually reads high - apparently.

It also listed 85,000 for my .218Bee loads from 2 different guys with the programs - 6,500 of those loads through my rifle - never lost a case due to pressure problems. I am not saying the loads Barnes removed were not high in pressure - but that the computer program is prone to listing extravagent numbers at times. This is common knowledge over at Saubier's small bore forum.

Considering 748 is capable of producing loads to 2,600fps with IMR3031 & 270gr. bullet in the .375Mag, I'd think WW748 should be as well. Afterall, my IMP .30/06 case exceeds that by 100fps and more.

BTW- I see the new Hornady book has .375H&H producing over 2,900fps with Barnes 270gr. banded solids. That's quite a load.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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CptCurlAdministrator
.450 member


Reged: 01/05/04
Posts: 5284
Loc: Fincastle, Botetourt County, V...
Re: WARNING - Barnes 375 H&H load data [Re: DarylS]
      #175814 - 19/02/11 09:35 PM

Quote:

Not sure how to 'take' your post, Curl.



Daryl, it was an uncharacteristic snide comment. In my opinion Barnes has shown poor ethics in regard to the issue I mentioned. However, that's my opinion only. I certainly don't want to re-ignite the old debate. I shouldn't have made my comment.

I agree with you that loading manuals get it "wrong" at times. I remember, and still have, the Hornady 3rd Edition manual (1980). That book has some real fireworks in it.

It all goes back to the proposition that reloading carries individual responsibility. Anybody who thinks the injunction, "Begin at the listed starting load and carefully work up while watching for signs of pressure." is just for sissies is looking for a burned face and ruined gun. There have been many instances where I have reached scary pressure signs using published data well below the published maximum. I'm sure you have also. It's not unique to Barnes or Hornady or any other name.

Individual responsibility and a mind for safety is the touchstone.

Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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CptCurlAdministrator
.450 member


Reged: 01/05/04
Posts: 5284
Loc: Fincastle, Botetourt County, V...
Re: WARNING - Barnes 375 H&H load data [Re: CptCurl]
      #175815 - 19/02/11 09:41 PM

Daryl,

Another point to make on the heels of what I just said.

It's wrong-minded to think the object of reloading is a quest for superior ballistics or the "super max load." Every time I see a question about "What maximum pressures can be handled by a 'Yourbrand Mod. XYZ' rifle using 884 grain bullets?" I cringe.

That's just not what loading ammo is all about. I suspect you agree heartily. We crusty old farts have learned a few over the years.

Best,
Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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WeatherbyMan
.224 member


Reged: 28/09/10
Posts: 20
Loc: Norway
Re: WARNING - Barnes 375 H&H load data [Re: CptCurl]
      #175842 - 20/02/11 08:09 AM

Well, the first manual is a real rifle-killer!
A lot of the loads is HOT, so be careful!

--------------------

Weatherby, Symbol of Superiority!

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DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 27006
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: WARNING - Barnes 375 H&H load data [Re: WeatherbyMan]
      #175847 - 20/02/11 11:26 AM

I have come across a number of people who used to handload the old Barnes "X" and now load Barnes TSX and MRX bullets in their hunting ammo. When I ask these people how far off the lands they are seating their bullets, 4.5 out of 5 say - HUH?

Do you have a Barnes manual? - the odd one - "yup" - some of them "nope, didn't have any, I use my Hornady manual" -- the others just "nope".

Those that do have a Barnes manual, I asked Did you read the words? - only at my .243 --- .7mm08 ---7mm Rem Mag --- .308 --- .30/06 --- .300Win Mag. --- or.338 Mag.
their own ctgs. only!

Now THAT is scary.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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500grains
.416 member


Reged: 16/02/04
Posts: 4732
Loc: Salt Lake City, Utah USA
Re: WARNING - Barnes 375 H&H load data [Re: DarylS]
      #175850 - 20/02/11 11:44 AM

One or two editions back, Barnes printed 150 grain 30-06 data for 180 grain bullets. Same data, two different bullets weights. Oops. Pressure? I hope no one used that data with one of the brittle Springfields.

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