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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Rifles
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vegard_dino
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Reged: 05/03/09
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6.5X54R, how good is it?
      #173426 - 20/12/10 02:22 AM



Hi all.

Got my eyes on a nice Austrian cape gun, 16 gauge with 6.5X54R (Steyr).
The gun looks nice, but not so sure about the rifle caliber.

Hope some can give me some information.
The idea is to use the gun when stalking for roe deer, wild boar and maybe a bird or two will cross my path.

--------------------
Cheers all, Vegard_dino

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baileybradshaw
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Re: 6.5X54R, how good is it? [Re: vegard_dino]
      #173427 - 20/12/10 02:59 AM

I only know what I have read on it, but like most 6.5 calibers, it kills beyond what it's size would indicate. Seems it was most effective with heavy bullets.

--------------------
www.bradshawgunandrifle.com

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lancaster
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Re: 6.5X54R, how good is it? [Re: baileybradshaw]
      #173428 - 20/12/10 03:08 AM

I would say its a 6,5x53R Mannlicher(Rumanian and Dutch military round) the rimmed predecessor of the well know 6,5x54 MS, same ballistic

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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vegard_dino
.333 member


Reged: 05/03/09
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Re: 6.5X54R, how good is it? [Re: lancaster]
      #173429 - 20/12/10 03:35 AM



Thanks for the information.
Yes, the small 6.5 calibers are great. They have more "power/killing potential" than one imagine.

How is it with brass for these old 6.5?

--------------------
Cheers all, Vegard_dino

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tinker
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Re: 6.5X54R, how good is it? [Re: vegard_dino]
      #173431 - 20/12/10 04:12 AM

VDino-



I have a 6.5x53r rifle. It's light and handy, and the cartridge is easy to load.
I use Winchester .303british brass (tried others, the WW brass works best because of base-diameter) and a 6.5x54ms die set (because I already had the MS dies) with a shell holder for .303
For load recipes I look at 6.5x54ms data and work from there, I'm using the Hornady 160gr soft nose round nose (SNRN) bullets.

One thing to consider - you should do a quick look at this gun that you want, to make sure of the cartridge chamber.
There are other rimmed 6.5mm cartridges that it could have been built for, which might not be as elegant for use with available brass.
I once passed on a 16/6.5mm cape gun that was so very special in many ways (cartridge trap, peepsight in the tang, set trigger, pretty wood and engraving etc) but it was built around a long 'pencil-thin' cartridge for which I could not get proper brass or even a 'parent case' from which to form the brass.

If it is indeed a 6.5x53r chamber, grab it and love it!









Cheers
Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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vegard_dino
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Reged: 05/03/09
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Re: 6.5X54R, how good is it? [Re: tinker]
      #173432 - 20/12/10 04:32 AM



Thanks for the information.

Well, Tinker, I will ask some more questions and try my best to find out more about the gun and the caliber.
But, IF it is that caliber, it sounds easy to find brass.

What kind of rifle do you have in the caliber? You hunt with it?

--------------------
Cheers all, Vegard_dino

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tinker
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Re: 6.5X54R, how good is it? [Re: vegard_dino]
      #173434 - 20/12/10 04:56 AM

First things first, identify the cartridge.
That is most important.

The information below was posted by Pete over on the DoubleGunShop site. (also, here is the thread.)
Pete is super-great guy and a great enthusiast.
Here are the Sauer cartridges...


6.5x48R Sauer : (GSP17)
6.5x58R Sauer : (GSP18)
6.5x65R Sauer : (GSP19)
8x48R Sauer : (GSP21)
6.5x70R Sauer : (GSP20)
8x58R Sauer : (GSP22)
9x58R Sauer : (GSP24)
9.3x72R Sauer : (GSP25)
10x50R Sauer : (GSP26)





You need to know for double damn sure what the gun is chambered for.
The price is much too high if you have to guess.

Email the guy and find out what makes him think it's the 6.5x48r
Have him send you a complete set of proof-mark photographs.

My rifle in 6.5x53r is a sweet little Jeffery Mannlicher sporter. I haven't hunted with it much yet besides coyote here on the ranch.




Cheers
Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

Edited by CptCurl (21/12/10 09:44 AM)

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tinker
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Reged: 12/03/05
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Re: 6.5X54R, how good is it? [Re: tinker]
      #173435 - 20/12/10 05:04 AM

By The Way...



If it is the 6.5x48r, you may be able to find brass from which to make this cartridge - I found this discussion where one fellow says 'The Handloader's Manual' shows 303Savage as the parent case.

CH4D can likely make your reloading dies for relatively low cost if you can't find them elsewhere.





Cheers
Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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lancaster
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Re: 6.5X54R, how good is it? [Re: tinker]
      #173438 - 20/12/10 06:23 AM

Quote:

VDino-

I once passed on a 16/6.5mm cape gun that was so very special in many ways (cartridge trap, peepsight in the tang, set trigger, pretty wood and engraving etc) but it was built around a long 'pencil-thin' cartridge for which I could not get proper brass or even a 'parent case' from which to form the brass.



Cheers
Tinker



no doubt it was the 6,5x70R, the "Bleistiftpatrone" or pencil cartridge
brass is available form Horneber like any other obsolete german case if you have time to wait. I look for such a cape gun here for a while now because of the strange Bleistiftpatrone. there is no case you can use but the its the mother case of the new 6x70R Norma so you can probably resize this .

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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vegard_dino
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Reged: 05/03/09
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Re: 6.5X54R, how good is it? [Re: lancaster]
      #173499 - 21/12/10 02:36 AM



It is good to have Horneber around, to keep these old German`s alive.
What are the ballistics on the Bleistiftpatrone?

--------------------
Cheers all, Vegard_dino

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JabaliHunter
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Re: 6.5X54R, how good is it? [Re: lancaster]
      #173509 - 21/12/10 04:52 AM

Quote:

I would say its a 6,5x53R Mannlicher(Rumanian and Dutch military round) the rimmed predecessor of the well know 6,5x54 MS, same ballistic


Interesting rifle - lovely cartridge! From the Mannlicher Collectors Assoc website:
Quote:

The original 6.5mm examples are interesting because of the difference and compatibility of the same. The 6.5x53.5mm Rimmed and the 6.5x54mm are the only example of a rimmed and rimless cartridge being loaded to the same performance level, something that probably explains the use of the 6.5mm Rimmed by explorers such as Charles Sheldon well into the twentieth century, when the more modern rimless 6.5x54mm was already well established. Somehow, I don’t believe that modern power or design ever entered into Sheldon’s mind. He wanted performance and CHEAP, and the 6.5x53.5mm rimmed gave both to him, there is no accounting for taste!
On the other side of the coin, the 6.5x54mm was widely accepted by the hunting establishment when they discovered the potency of the long nosed 160 grain FMJ bullets when used upon dangerous game.



From Kynoch, 140g SN, 26" barrel, 17.5 tons/sq.in, 2700fps

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Kiwi_bloke
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Re: 6.5X54R, how good is it? [Re: JabaliHunter]
      #174175 - 26/01/11 07:57 PM

6,5x54R Mannlicher was one of the early smokeless rounds so won quick popularity over older, heavier, slower rifles. The early 6,5x54R was rimmed to be used in clip-loading rifles, loaded in a packet (a steel clip with rounds inside), like the US Garrand. Until around 1903 the Austrians supplied bare actions in 6,5x54R for others to build up as custiom sporting rifles. Being rimmed it was equally suitable for break-open rifles such as Drillings. After that date, they supplied their own sporting rifle with a new rotary magazine designed by Otto Schoenauer. Note that this newer rotary magazine round is properly called the 6,5x54 Mannlicher-Schoenauer and it is rimless. So it is not correct to call the rimmed round or the rifles built for them "Mannlicher-Schoenauer" but just "Mannlicher". This subtle difference is lost on some later writers.

There are break-open rifles chambered for the 6,5x54R Mannlicher but, as has been noted, there are a whole variety of other 6,5mm rimmed rounds or similar length and a bore casting is good insurrance. The proof marks, depending on the year, the rifles origin, etc, may say something like 6,5mm/54. You might also try loading an empty 6,5x54R case into the breech and closing the action. None of these things prove you have a 6,5x54R Mannlicher, but if it doesn't fit, it sure points to it being something else such as a 6,5x58R Sauer, for instance.

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Kiwi_bloke
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Re: 6.5X54R, how good is it? [Re: Kiwi_bloke]
      #174361 - 29/01/11 05:23 AM

Know that I think about it, the rimless was 6,5x54 Mannlicher-Schoenauer but the rimless was actually called the 6,5x53R Mannlicher, note the '3". The proof marks might show 6,7mm or the like which is just a land/groove thing, it doesn't mean (in itself) that you have an odd bullet diameter.

You asked how good the caliber was/is; when I visited Holland and Holland nearly 25 years ago, they had several old Mannlicher-Schoenauers for sale. They said they expected to have a lot more for sale shortly as the British government was about to introduce new "minimum energy" requirements for cartridges and, for red deer, the 6,5 Mannlicher fell short. However, as H&H staff pointed out, that along with the .303 British, the 6,5 Mannlicher had been an extremely popular cartridge and had probably accounted for more red deer in history than any other cartridge made. And that's not to mention all the countless African game it killed, including a great many elephants. So it was a nonsense law.

Because of the very long pencil-like 159-grain bullet, the standard for this caliber, it has great sectional density and for large game this makes up for any perceived problems on paper with lower energy. RWS still make this bullet and still load the 6,5x54 M-S with it but, if you reload, the 160-grain Hornady and 140-grain Nosler as well as 125-grain (? brand) bullets are all accurate in my 6,5x54 M-S carbine. Considering the distance the smaller bullets have to jump to the lands, this comes as a surprise. There's no reason why you can't use smaller bullet weights either, especially if these regulate better in the cape gun to the original sights.

The proof marks may also indicate the bullet weight the rifle was originally regulated for. Sometimes, you can narrow down what the rifle is probably chambered for, using this information. I was shown a 6,5 break-open "Tell" rifle that I was told was "probably" a 6,5 Mannlcher although brass cases didn't fit it's chamber. How they came to that conclusion then, beats me. After looking at the proof marks, I dropped a 6,5x58R Sauer into the chamber and the action closed perfectly on it.

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Mike_Bailey
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Re: 6.5X54R, how good is it? [Re: Kiwi_bloke]
      #174363 - 29/01/11 05:43 AM

Pat Murphy, head of Hollands gun room and someone I like to think of as a friend.... quote "my favourite rifle calibre ever"

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