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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Paradox and Bore Guns
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jaz
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J & W Tolley Ubique
      #173325 - 18/12/10 11:09 AM

I bought a 12 bore boxlock Ubique along with a 10 bore underlever hammer Ubique, without much info. Does anyone know what type of rifling is used in these guns?? The 12 was built in 1897 and the 10 a bit earlier.
Thx
John

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gatsby
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Re: J & W Tolley Ubique [Re: jaz]
      #173329 - 18/12/10 11:40 AM

You know the post is near worthless without a photo and specs!

--------------------
"Recoil is insignificant when there is a tiger on the head of your elephant" The Maharaja of Cooch Behar



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tinkerModerator
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Re: J & W Tolley Ubique [Re: gatsby]
      #173331 - 18/12/10 11:57 AM

Tolley Ubique!!??


NICE!


John, they should have invisible rifling.
I'll dig up some images of vintage Tolley ads detailing the Ubique.
Might be a day, might be tonight.



Cheers
Tinker



PS
Get some photos up for us!!

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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tinkerModerator
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Re: J & W Tolley Ubique [Re: tinker]
      #173332 - 18/12/10 12:06 PM

Right-click on images then click "view image" to see them bigger.




















Cheers
Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

Edited by CptCurl (20/12/10 11:24 AM)

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gatsby
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Re: J & W Tolley Ubique [Re: tinker]
      #173337 - 18/12/10 12:41 PM

The ad indicates the guns could be bought with rifled chokes and claims accuracy to 300yds! Just another company puffing the attributes of the rifled choke gun?

--------------------
"Recoil is insignificant when there is a tiger on the head of your elephant" The Maharaja of Cooch Behar



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tinkerModerator
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Re: J & W Tolley Ubique [Re: gatsby]
      #173341 - 18/12/10 01:51 PM

Yup.

Been a while since I've looked at these images.
I'm sure there were numerous iterations of the Ubique line of guns.
I can't wait to see how these two guns look!!






Cheers
Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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jaz
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Reged: 21/10/05
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Re: J & W Tolley Ubique [Re: tinker]
      #173349 - 18/12/10 03:23 PM

Tinker
You da man!!
Thx for the info
Here is a bit more dats:





Lot No: 247S2

A 12-bore 'Ubique' boxlock non-ejector gun by J. & W. Tolley, no. 8330
The sides of the treble-grip action-body naïvely engraved depicting pointers in pursuit of game-birds, figured stock (broken and repaired at hand) inset with a silver plaque on the right side, inscribed Presented to the Rev'd. C. Price M.A. by the Parishioners of Alcester, Feb. 28th 1897, and with wood extension, the barrels with game-rib, engraved J. & W. Tolley, Makers, St. Mary's Square, Birmingham & London, folding leaf-sight sighted for 50 yards and bead-foresight
Weight 6lb. 11oz., 14 5/8in. pull (14in. stock), 30in. barrels, both approx. cyl., 2½in. chambers, Birmingham nitro reproof



Sold for £1,800 inclusive of Buyer's Premium

Footnote:
Literature:
Cyril Johnson, 'The Curate's Shotgun', Local Past, Volume 3, Number 8, December 2006, pp. 16-17

Reverend Cyril Price was curate of Alcester between 1892 and 1897, when he left to take up the post of Chaplain to Her Majesty's Forces in India. This gun appears to have been presented to him upon his leaving to take up the new post.

The Smooth-Bore "Ubique" was marketed in J. & W. Tolley's 1910 catalogue as ...shooting shot equal to a first-class Shot Gun, and firing Bullets with the accuracy of a Rifle, the highest grade of which retailed for 50 guineas

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tinkerModerator
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Re: J & W Tolley Ubique [Re: jaz]
      #173350 - 18/12/10 03:43 PM

NICE!





--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

Edited by CptCurl (20/12/10 11:26 AM)

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jaz
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Reged: 21/10/05
Posts: 188
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Re: J & W Tolley Ubique [Re: tinker]
      #173358 - 18/12/10 10:22 PM

Tinker
Thanks again.
Apparantly this 12 was bought to go to India with the Curate as a going away present. There appears to be 2 models made, a smooth bore as well as a Fosberry gun. This one is the smooth bore. It looks like round balls will be its diet from the catalog. 4 Drams is a bit stout for a 7 pound gun! I do especially like the 30" barrels.
One more for you to post, if you would be so king, Holts auction, #757, the 10 bore.
Thx
JZ

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DarylS
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Re: J & W Tolley Ubique [Re: jaz]
      #173367 - 19/12/10 02:30 AM

This would be a perfect gun to try patched balls in. I did this in my rifle/shotgun combo 13/16 bore Husky. The fired patches showed they worked perfectly. If lubed with an oil or grease that works well with BP fouling, they will ensure clean shooting.
The patched, undersized balls shot better than the larger, slightly over bore sized balls.

:

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

Edited by CptCurl (20/12/10 11:27 AM)

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tinkerModerator
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Re: J & W Tolley Ubique [Re: jaz]
      #173373 - 19/12/10 03:37 AM

Here you go!


Quote:

...
One more for you to post, if you would be so king, Holts auction, #757, the 10 bore...












Cheers
Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

Edited by CptCurl (20/12/10 11:27 AM)

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gatsby
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Re: J & W Tolley Ubique [Re: tinker]
      #173374 - 19/12/10 04:03 AM

What does the 10 weigh?

--------------------
"Recoil is insignificant when there is a tiger on the head of your elephant" The Maharaja of Cooch Behar



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tinkerModerator
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Re: J & W Tolley Ubique [Re: gatsby]
      #173377 - 19/12/10 04:48 AM

This is all Holt's had to say about the gun-




"J. & W. TOLLEY
A 10-BORE (2 5/8IN.) 'UBIQUE' DOUBLE-BARRELLED ROTARY-UNDERLEVER SHOT AND BALL HAMMERGUN, serial no. 6916,
32 1/4in. damascus barrels with broad rib engraved 'J. & W. TOLLEY. MAKERS. 1. CONDUIT STREET. ST. REGENT ST. LONDON. W.' and inscribed 'UBIQUE' in gothic script at the breech-end, bead fore-sight, rear-sight of two folding leaves calibrated up to 100 yards, Jones patent rotary-underlever, carved percussion fences, rebounding back-action locks, border engraving, locks retaining very slight traces of original colour-hardening and finish, the action body brushed bright, 14 1/2in. stock (cracked through at hand) with steel buttplate "






Cheers
Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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Sarg
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Re: J & W Tolley Ubique [Re: tinker]
      #173408 - 19/12/10 10:10 AM

Well done Jaz , Im glade you got what you were after ( I missed my Mannlicher 1900 by $14 Pounds) & welcome to the Tolley owners club !

I hope you enjoy them !

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jaz
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Reged: 21/10/05
Posts: 188
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Re: J & W Tolley Ubique [Re: Sarg]
      #173824 - 25/12/10 11:55 PM

As I read through the pages posted by Tinker, I am surprised to read the details of the type of rifling and ball used. On page 16, third paragraph from the bottom, by New York" Weeks Sport". They detail that Tolley made both the Fosberry choke gun, I am sure as soon as the patenet ran out, but also still manufactured the smooth bore. It is stated that the ball is oversize and that there is a small recess before the muzzle which helps with shot patterns.
Great info, Thanks again Tinker!

Merry Christmas!!
JZ

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gatsby
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Re: J & W Tolley Ubique [Re: jaz]
      #173847 - 26/12/10 06:19 AM

The "Ubique", a Shot and Ball gun, a Ball and Shot Gun or the Best of Both Worlds. Sounds like the title of a great article for an upcoming DGJ.

--------------------
"Recoil is insignificant when there is a tiger on the head of your elephant" The Maharaja of Cooch Behar



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tinkerModerator
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Re: J & W Tolley Ubique [Re: gatsby]
      #173848 - 26/12/10 06:25 AM

Merry Christmas to you too Jaz!



I have quite a few such old texts, and I pull them up from time to time.
I seem to recall having a discussion with someone over the past few years (or more, might have been my late dad...) who'd owned or handled Ubique guns that had lancaster-esque 'invisible' rifling.
With a slow enough twist and the right kind of slight choke at the muzzle, I'm sure they could do well with shot and ball.
As Daryl has noted so many times in the past, a cylinder bore with properly-fitting ball can be very very accurate at reasonable distances.

I'll look forward to seeing how you do with these guns as they arrive to your bench.
Keep us tuned!





Cheers
Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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TH44
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Re: J & W Tolley Ubique [Re: tinker]
      #174177 - 26/01/11 08:11 PM

I frequently go to the Holt's auctions but was working for that one, saw the pic, if I had thought more I should have bid and probably pushed you! but good luck with it and glad it went to an enthusiast and not a dealer

TH44

Edited by TH44 (26/01/11 08:13 PM)

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jaz
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Re: J & W Tolley Ubique [Re: TH44]
      #174591 - 01/02/11 09:54 AM

no worries, not a dealer

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jaz
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Re: J & W Tolley Ubique [Re: jaz]
      #175486 - 14/02/11 08:47 AM

I received my two Tolleys this week. They are a bit different.

The 10 is a hammer gun with 32" barrels, weighing 9 1/2 Lbs. It is cracked through the hand (already known). The action is buffed smooth. Damascus barrels. Two leaf sights, 50 and 100 yards.
The bore diameter are identical in both barrels (smooth), .756" to about 28", 2" of relief expanding to 760" then back to 756".
Questions - Should the round ball be sized a thousandth or so under .756"? How much powder?
Any way to take the shiny surface of the action to a more dull surface??

The 12 is a boxlock, straight grip, 30" barrels, one flip up leaf sight. The bore is .722 (smooth) with the last 2" choked down to .719". The last two inches has invisible rifling. Again, what size round ball and how much powder.

Unfortunately, I just had rotator cuff surgery a few weeks ago and will not be shooting any time soon ( I can not even mount either gun!), but this will give me time to get the components together.

Your opinions are appreciated.
Thx
John

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tinkerModerator
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Re: J & W Tolley Ubique [Re: jaz]
      #175488 - 14/02/11 11:07 AM

How cool.., jug-choking!


I'd heard that jug-choked guns shot ball well, perhaps that's the Tolley Ubique secret after all.

Get more photos up for us, or just send me the one with the good wrist so I can get it running for you!







Cheers
Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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gatsby
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Re: J & W Tolley Ubique [Re: jaz]
      #175489 - 14/02/11 11:41 AM

Quote:

I received my two Tolleys this week. They are a bit different.

The 10 is a hammer gun with 32" barrels, weighing 9 1/2 Lbs. It is cracked through the hand (already known). The action is buffed smooth. Damascus barrels. Two leaf sights, 50 and 100 yards.
The bore diameter are identical in both barrels (smooth), .756" to about 28", 2" of relief expanding to 760" then back to 756".
Questions - Should the round ball be sized a thousandth or so under .756"? How much powder?
Any way to take the shiny surface of the action to a more dull surface??

The 12 is a boxlock, straight grip, 30" barrels, one flip up leaf sight. The bore is .722 (smooth) with the last 2" choked down to .719". The last two inches has invisible rifling. Again, what size round ball and how much powder.

Unfortunately, I just had rotator cuff surgery a few weeks ago and will not be shooting any time soon ( I can not even mount either gun!), but this will give me time to get the components together.

Your opinions are appreciated.
Thx
John


How far apart are these guns made time wise?

Reading threw the literature and from some experience with ball and shot guns I would want say the 10 bore would be a 6 dram gun based on the chamber size. I would start lower and work up with black 11/2 or 2F. Might try a conical. Daryl's patched balls might work good in this system.

The 12 being 2 1/2 inch chamber would be a standard paradox velocity/or a bit faster. Have to play with the projectile size. As always your fingers are your own, proceed cautiously.

--------------------
"Recoil is insignificant when there is a tiger on the head of your elephant" The Maharaja of Cooch Behar



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DarylS
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Re: J & W Tolley Ubique [Re: gatsby]
      #175517 - 15/02/11 03:44 AM

As to jug-choking - I once built a .44 cal. muzzleloading smoothbore that I lapped in a .004" jug-choke. It shot nicely even patterns with 1/2oz of 7 1/2's (10 straight on trap) and also would head-shoot bunnies at out to 50yards with patched round balls.

I would be inclined to try patched and undersized balls to start with. They will reduce pressure over full sized balls or slugs and will also eliminate any leading.

It is a place to start- perhaps overly cautious for the Paradox 12, maybe not.

Track of the Wolf . com - (all one work) sells balls of these sizes in packets of 25 balls and would be the least expensive & easiest place to start.

In the 10 bore (actually 11 bore), I'd be thinking of a .735" ball and .015" ticking or denim patch for a very tight bit to the bore. I would lube the patch with something like neetsfoot oil, or a black powder bullet lube softened with Vaseline or Neetsfoot Oil. Do not use Neetsfoot Oil compound, only pure Neestfoot Oil.

In the 12, the same idea with a .690" ball and same patch would also work.

The balls are quite light compared to paradox bullets, of course.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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rigbymauser
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Re: J & W Tolley Ubique [Re: DarylS]
      #175578 - 16/02/11 02:01 AM

Hey Tinker!!..

What year is that Tolley guncatalog from?.

Congratulations Jaz...I too had an eye on those two guns you now have:LOL

Jug-choking. never heard of that before..but again its the good thing on this forum besides all the gunporn..one actually learn something too.
I have contacted my gunmakers here today, to have them checking my Rigby S&B from 1905 to see if there are "secrets" in the muzzles...hahaha

Edited by rigbymauser (16/02/11 02:08 AM)

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tinkerModerator
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Re: J & W Tolley Ubique [Re: rigbymauser]
      #175834 - 20/02/11 03:34 AM

I don't recall what year those catalog pages are from, but I'll do some digging for you when I get a chance.
This weekend will be unpacking tools and (hopefully) finally setting up my machine shop here on the ranch.

Jug-choking is the 'old school' shot-column control, and it's been used as 'trade secret' for ages and ages, even up to modern 'race-gun' shotgun tuning by guys like Hans Vang.





Cheers
Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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