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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Big Bore Rifles

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hcroveda
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Reged: 19/04/04
Posts: 23
Loc: San Martín de los Andes, Neuqu...

.500 - 3" double P. Webley & Son
#17317 - 28/07/04 07:28 AM

I'm owner of a double P. WEBLEY & SON (St. James - London)in .500 - 3" without the nitro proof. Does anyone know how to research P. Webley & Son's records to see when this gun was made?
Thanks in advance.
Héctor

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mickey
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Reged: 05/01/03
Posts: 4647
Loc: Pend Oreille Valley, Idaho

Re: .500 - 3" double P. Webley & Son [Re: hcroveda]
#17328 - 28/07/04 09:52 AM

Hector

First welcome to the Forum. You have found the right place to discuss Doubles.

If your rifle is a Nitro Rifle it was made before 1904, that is when the Nitro Proof Marks were introduced. Most, if not all 3" cartidges were Nitro rifles.

What are the Proof Marks and what is the loading?

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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470Rigby
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Reged: 23/02/04
Posts: 328
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Re: .500 - 3" double P. Webley & Son [Re: hcroveda]
#17415 - 30/07/04 12:35 AM

P.Webly & Son merged with W.& C. Scott & Son to become Webley & Scott Revolver and Arms Co. on 21 October, 1897.

AFIK, no more guns (as opposed to Revolvers) were made under the P.Webley name after that. If so, that would put your rifle in a time-frame before that.

However, as Mickey noted, the provision for Nitro proof was not available until 1904, but it was not mandatory until 1925.

Accordingly, it is possible to encounter double rifles built to handle full nitro loads, but were only blackpowder proved in the intervening years. Must have been to save costs, but I have seen such rifles. The barrel contour and wall thicknesses will tell you whether it is for Nitro or BP.

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webley
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Reged: 16/02/04
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Re: .500 - 3" double P. Webley & Son [Re: hcroveda]
#17458 - 30/07/04 05:21 PM

The name of P. Webley was still used for several years after the merger of the companies on certain ranges of gun (as was the name of W&C Scott).

Here's a link to a list of Scott and Webley & Scott serial numbers. Beware though - there were other short serial number ranges that may not be part of the table on the link - I'll check later to see if I've got more information.

http://gunshop.com/dgsnos5.htm

The actual sales records for the rifles were lost or destroyed, only the records for most of the shotguns remain.

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hcroveda
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Reged: 19/04/04
Posts: 23
Loc: San Martín de los Andes, Neuqu...

Re: .500 - 3" double P. Webley & Son [Re: 470Rigby]
#17527 - 02/08/04 10:03 PM

Thanks Mickey and all.
How is possible to send a photo of my double in this forum?
Previously, I send a mail to "Contac Us" with this cuestón but d'not answer yet.
Both the barrels and the receiver are solid and big, but only the photos wil be speak by self.
My idea is make the reproof in England but, how?
Sorry for my bud English.
Thanks in advance.
Hector

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mbogo375
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Reged: 09/02/04
Posts: 68
Loc: southeastern Georgia

Re: .500 - 3" double P. Webley & Son [Re: webley]
#17560 - 04/08/04 04:50 AM

In reply to:

The name of P. Webley was still used for several years after the merger of the companies on certain ranges of gun (as was the name of W&C Scott).

webley,

I have a nice old top lever hammerless P.Webley&Son marked double chambered for 450x3.25 BPE. It is engraved, and falls in the 10XXX serial number range, plus it has the W&S winged bullet markings on the bottom of the barrels just in front of the flats. I assume that this rifle was made after the merger from this marking, but haven't found the exact date of manufacture yet. If you can shed any light on the possible manufacture date I would appreciate the information.

Jim

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bpesteve
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Reged: 18/11/03
Posts: 106
Loc: Sunset side up

Re: .500 - 3" double P. Webley & Son [Re: hcroveda]
#17566 - 04/08/04 10:06 AM

Hello Hector,
Before you can post a picture here, it must be loaded onto a web host somewhere. You cannot just send a picture directly from your computer to this bulletin board.

If you do not have a place to put your picture somewhere on the web, I would be glad to help. You can e-mail the picture to me and I will make it appear here. My email address is

bpesteve (at) yahoo.com

without the blank spaces.

You can arrange re-proof in England with a number of British gunmakers and gunsmiths like East Grinstead Guns ( http://www.egguns.demon.co.uk/index.htm ) or John Foster ( http://www.johnfostergunmaker.co.uk/ )

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webley
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Reged: 16/02/04
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Re: .500 - 3" double P. Webley & Son [Re: mbogo375]
#17573 - 04/08/04 04:46 PM

Jim,
If it's got the 'winged bullet then it certainly was made 'post-merger'.

Have you missed an 'x' off there? I ask because a gun in the 10xxx range would seem to be outside of the normal range of numbers (10xxxx would seem more likely)?

Unless of course the P. Webley numbering system was also used for a year or two after the merger, (later P. Webley branded guns did carry a serial numbers from the normal W&S range).

Regards
Webley

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mbogo375
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Reged: 09/02/04
Posts: 68
Loc: southeastern Georgia

Re: .500 - 3" double P. Webley & Son [Re: webley]
#17575 - 04/08/04 05:35 PM

In reply to:

Jim,
If it's got the 'winged bullet then it certainly was made 'post-merger'.

Have you missed an 'x' off there? I ask because a gun in the 10xxx range would seem to be outside of the normal range of numbers (10xxxx would seem more likely)?

Webley,

No, the serial number is in the range mentioned. I am attaching a photo of the barrels with the last two digits of the serial number obscured. You can clearly see the W&S symbol in front of the flats.

Aren't these old rifles fun

?

Jim

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470Rigby
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Reged: 23/02/04
Posts: 328
Loc: Melbourne, Australia

Re: .500 - 3" double P. Webley & Son [Re: mbogo375]
#17630 - 06/08/04 11:08 AM

Mbogo

The Proof marks on your rifle tell an interesting story. The "450EX" indicates that the rifle is pre-1904, since after that date the rifle would have carried the Powder charge and Bullet weight like ".450 EX 120 - 270".

Also interesting is the fact that the rifle was Black Powder proved at the London Proofhouse.

Prior to the merger with W&C Scott in 1897, P.Webley made mainly for the trade; about 90 percent of their production being sold under other names.

However, there was a brief period after 1893 when Webley opened a showroom in Shaftesbury Street, London, but it is unkown how long the merged company kept this retail business open.

The London proof marks and the "winged bullet" suggest that your rifle originates from the short period after the merger that this outlet was active; 1904 being the latest date possible given the proof marks.

The address given on your rifle would shed some light on this?

Although not helping with the dating it would be interesting to know what the action type is? T.W. Webley and T. Brain patented the "Screw Grip" as early as 1882, but this type of top extension has been wrongly attributed to Webley and Scott who certainly sang it's praises after they "aquired" it at the time of the merger.

A lot of "third party" guns and rifles with screw grips are IMO, wrongly attributed to Webley and Scott manufacture as a result?

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mbogo375
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Reged: 09/02/04
Posts: 68
Loc: southeastern Georgia

Re: .500 - 3" double P. Webley & Son [Re: 470Rigby]
#17636 - 06/08/04 02:16 PM

470Rigby,

Yes, this is an interesting old double. It does have the London address on the barrels, and I feel the same as you as to the probable range of manufacturing dates.

Not all the screw grip actions after the merger were marked Webley&Scott

.

Note the two screws on the rib in the photo. Any ideas as to purpose of these holes? I once saw an Evans that had an aperture sight mounted here, but have no idea if that was the case with this rifle.

Jim

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webley
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Re: .500 - 3" double P. Webley & Son [Re: mbogo375]
#17641 - 06/08/04 05:30 PM

Mbogo,
To add just a little more:

The W&C Scott serial number range started as you’d expect at ‘one’ in 1865 & by 1868 they’d got to about 1000
57000 took them up to 1896

Following the merger in 1897 it seems that the Scott serial number range became the dominant one for sporting guns (not revolvers/pistols) however several times between 1897 & 1940 blocks of numbers within that range were allocated just to ‘Scott’ branded guns. Generally speaking the post 1897 P. Webley branded guns used numbers from the normal number range. A friend has a P. Webley sidelock shotgun that was made around 1905 & has a serial number of just over 70000 (which is in the normal W&S range).

Your rifle as 470Rigby points out must have been made no later than 1904 due to the proof marks. If your rifle was a W&S made but P. Webley branded gun then it should really have a number between lets say 57000 & 68000 (1897 to 1904). Seeing that it’s only number 10000 I think it must have actually been made by P. Webley just prior to the merger & then ‘over-stamped’ by W&S at a later date.

I assume when the merger happened P. Webley had a quantity of guns in stock either finished or part finished (with P. Webley serial numbers), it would be natural for W&S to sell these with perhaps the addition of the new W&S trade mark stamped on them.

I wish I could remember where I’d seen the P. Webley serial numbers published – I’ll find it eventually when I’m looking for something else!

Regards
Webley

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bpesteve
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Reged: 18/11/03
Posts: 106
Loc: Sunset side up

Re: .500 - 3" double P. Webley & Son [Re: hcroveda]
#17821 - 11/08/04 05:00 AM

Here are several pictures of Hector's .500 P.Webley:

Nice rifle!!

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bpesteve
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Reged: 18/11/03
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Re: .500 - 3" double P. Webley & Son [Re: bpesteve]
#17822 - 11/08/04 05:16 AM

A couple of comments on this great rifle/shotgun combo: The style of the proof marks are definitely pre-1887 as the only indication of caliber is the '39' gauge mark. Also, since the action shows an Anson & Deeley patent use number that would date it to within 14 years after 1874. The odd thing, to me anyway, is the thickness of the rifle chamber walls; they are much thicker than the typical .500 BPE's I've seen and in combination with the Webley Screw Grip third fastener it makes for one very strong rifle.

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hcroveda
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Reged: 19/04/04
Posts: 23
Loc: San Martín de los Andes, Neuqu...

Re: .500 - 3" double P. Webley & Son [Re: bpesteve]
#17871 - 12/08/04 02:37 AM

Mickey, 470 Rigby, Webley:
Oppinions?
What do you think about the re-proof?
Thanks in advance.
Hector

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mickey
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Re: .500 - 3" double P. Webley & Son [Re: hcroveda]
#17899 - 12/08/04 02:34 PM

Hector et al

Is it possible this is a shotgun first with a set of later Rifle Barrels? It would answer the questions about when the original gun was made with the Rifle Barels made in the period shortly before 1904. It seems odd to me to make a rifle on the 12 gauge frame. A 20 or even a 16 but the 12 is very large as you can tell.

If it is I might be hesitant about a Nitro Proof. I would make sure a knowledgable person viewed the action and barrels before going ahead with it.

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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470Rigby
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Reged: 23/02/04
Posts: 328
Loc: Melbourne, Australia

Re: .500 - 3" double P. Webley & Son [Re: hcroveda]
#17933 - 13/08/04 09:03 AM

Hector

Those rifle barrels are massive, and would almost certainly handle the pressure of full nitro loads, but it is the action strength that would give me most concern if you were considering shooting full nitro loads.

Of course, you could do so without getting it reproved for full nitro? Remember, the British proof procedure is "semi-destructive" in nature, and IMO may permanently damage a gun, even if it passes - meaning not destroyed'!

The shape of action balls are suggestive of Webley Screw Grip shotgun action, but this is an early example, so that could be misleading.

What is the all-up weight with the rifle barrels fitted? If it is much under 11 pounds, it would be a brute to shoot, even if it did pass re-proof for full nitro loads without cracking the action.

In this context, I understand that the majority of shotguns that fail re-proof do so, because the action cracks, not because of any weaknesses in the barrel, and that is at shotgun proof pressures! So, if the action is originally for a shotgun, you would be taking a huge risk subjecting it to full .500 NE proof pressures. Remember that this is an early gun, and the steel technology is not as good as even that used on guns built after WW1 that utilsed a lot of the advances in steel technology made during that war.

IMO it may be best if you stick to "Nitro-for-Black" type loads, which BTW, are nothing to sneeze at.

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