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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Double Rifles
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4seventy
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Why is the O/U inferior for DG
      #17250 - 27/07/04 06:11 AM

The SxS double rifle is the traditional dangerous game rifle as opposed to the O/U style.
Few, if any of the well known hunters used the O/U even though they were available by some of the well respected makers.
Why is this do you think?
Why is it that O/U double rifles are uncommon in the big dangerous game NE chamberings?
Why do many shooters consider the O/U ok for the smaller cartridges like 9.3x74 but no good for 470 NE?
I'd be interested to hear members comments and opinions on O/U rifles FOR DANGEROUS GAME regarding things like......
Barrel opening distance.
Chamber loading.
Sighting.
Scope fitting. (QD)
Ballance and handling.
Action size and strength.
Trigger/s
Anything you feel is either good or bad regarding the O/U Rifle.

But remember that this question really relates to using the O/U Rifle for Dangerous Game.

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Spring
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Re: Why is the O/U inferior for DG [Re: 4seventy]
      #17258 - 27/07/04 08:36 AM

From Morris Hallowell, IV, of Hallowell & Co, " Side-by-side barrels are better than over & under barrels because they have a broader and more quickly-acquired sighting plane. Although one should always concentrate on the target and not the gun, in field shooting, having subliminal consciousness of the position of the barrels is a real aid to throwing the shot towards a suddenly-appearing moving target. Although not as precise, it is quicker to find the broad crosshairs of a hunting telescopic sight than the fine crosshairs of a target scope. Side-by-side guns are easier to load than over & under guns because the barrels do not need to be opened to as wide an angle (gape) for cartridges to clear the standing breech. Side-by-side guns traditionally have been considered more elegant of line than over & under guns.

Most double rifles are used for dangerous game hunting in Africa. That is certainly the case with mine. The concept, or benefit, of a double rifle is the quick second shot in a close quarters and dangerous hunting situation. The need for potential quick reloads makes a side by side more desireable than an over and under in situations like this, as explained in the comments by Hallowell above.

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4seventy
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Re: Why is the O/U inferior for DG [Re: Spring]
      #17262 - 27/07/04 12:32 PM

Yes, they do indeed say....

" Side-by-side barrels are better than over & under barrels because they have a broader and more quickly-acquired sighting plane."

Interestingly though they also claim...


" O/U or Over and Under [barrels] - Over and under barrels are better than side-by-side barrels because they have a narrower sighting plane."

Bit of a turn around but in fairness I think in both cases they are really talking shotguns, (field in the case of the SxS and clay target in the case of O/U) rather than Double Rifles meant for use on Dangerous Game.

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unspellable
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Re: Why is the O/U inferior for DG [Re: 4seventy]
      #17280 - 27/07/04 10:10 PM

First, I like the SxS because of tradition and apperance. But that sort of thing is in the eye of the beholder.

The SxS is a tad easier to reload in a hurry. The OU is said to be a bit easier to regulate.

The largest caliber OU I have seen was in 9.3x74R. This rifle was so light I would have been afraid of the recoil. Put the lie to the theory that doubles are inherently heavier than magazine rifles. I have seen several OU's in the smaller calibers, including a Winchester. Up to that point I didn't know Winchester ever sold double rifles.

I have to think the sighting plane arguments apply to shotguns.

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Marrakai
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Re: Why is the O/U inferior for DG [Re: 4seventy]
      #17282 - 27/07/04 10:35 PM

4seventy:
Tradition would suggest that SxS shotguns are more suitable for game-shooting than U/O guns, and those of us who like our rifles to match our guns might therefore prefer SxS double rifles for the hunting field. These days, many gunners are starting life on clays, and taking their preference for U/O guns into the field. This is gradually changing the supremacy of SxS guns in the field, and may be expected to permeate double rifles in the future.

For me personally, I shoot with both eyes open on both shotguns and express-sighted doubles, and can't stand the left-eye peripheral view of the lower barrel on an U/O gun or rifle: it really distracts me.

Technically, I believe that U/O rifles have the dis-advantage of larger opening angle, which is NOT trivial for dangerous game. The large-head, rimmed cases needed for DG in an U/O rifle dictate opening angles approaching 70 degrees, which is much slower and gives more opportunity for things to go wrong, or the shooter to fumble under pressure.

The U/O design has one important advantage for DG though, in that the lower barrel produces significantly less barrel-rise from recoil, allowing a faster second shot. I don't think total weight or strength (in either design or materials) is an issue these days, though it may have been a significant disadvantage of U/O big-bores in the past.

...and since this is just my opinion, SxSs rule!

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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atkinson6
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Re: Why is the O/U inferior for DG [Re: Marrakai]
      #17308 - 28/07/04 05:55 AM

The real answer to your question is the reloading of the lower barrel on a O/U has been the problem all along..It is hard to break open and get enough clearance in a stressed situation..It also has to take a wider arch to open and a concerted effort to open "all the way"....thus the over under has never gained popularity in the DGR field, and rightfully so...

It is however a suitable plainsgame rifle and surly is a nice shotgun alternative...

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NE450No2
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Re: Why is the O/U inferior for DG [Re: atkinson6]
      #17332 - 28/07/04 10:11 AM

The above posters have made some good points... However the main reason is... because my eyes go like this OO not like this 8.

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jgttechjunkie
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Re: Why is the O/U inferior for DG [Re: 4seventy]
      #17362 - 29/07/04 12:21 AM

At least one British maker has an overunder shotgun that opens to the side. If that were done with an OU rifle it might make loading with a scope installed easier. I strayed to OU shotguns but returned to SS, never liked the big gape.

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bonanza
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Re: Why is the O/U inferior for DG [Re: jgttechjunkie]
      #17367 - 29/07/04 05:24 AM

I find U/O shotgun supeior for skeet, but SxS better for hunting and trap. I've had a U/O .308 win. But prefer a SxS in double rifle. I disagree regarding the gape, My O/U shotgun is very easy to load in a hurry.

--------------------


"Speak Precisely" G. Gordon Liddy.

"Life is absurd, chaotic and we must define its purpose with our actions" Abert Camus

"I''m the dude playing a dude disguised as another dude."

"Yo! Mr. White"

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kos
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Re: Why is the O/U inferior for DG [Re: bonanza]
      #17372 - 29/07/04 06:55 AM

i saw a over/ under .470 that was owned by the president of France in a gunshop about 25 years ago .he shot two rhinos and 1 elephant with it, with no problem .then he gave it as a gift to the PH ,it was a Ferlach .

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4seventy
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Re: Why is the O/U inferior for DG [Re: NE450No2]
      #17376 - 29/07/04 08:09 AM

In reply to:

my eyes go like this OO


450#2, I think you have spending too much time looking at the photos in the something for the boys thread!

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4seventy
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Re: Why is the O/U inferior for DG [Re: 4seventy]
      #17377 - 29/07/04 08:15 AM

Some interesting stuff there boys but I really thought you would have been able to give the O/U for DG a far more serious kicking than that!
Where are all the other confirmed SxS doubles men and their opinions?

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470Rigby
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Re: Why is the O/U inferior for DG [Re: 4seventy]
      #17412 - 29/07/04 11:20 PM

Theoretically, an U/O double rifle should be easier to regulate since the vagaries of muzzle flip do not come into play - but so few U/O's have been made by Gunmakers that cared to spend the time to regulate them properly that it's hard to know whether this is true in practice.

Witness the Winchester 101 U/O's that were "jig regulated" - NONE of them shot and probably put most shooters that owned them off the concept for life!

Vic Pedersen, the Darwin gunsmith had a small sideline going in re-reguating them - when he finished with them they usually shot brilliantly.

Cost has got to be an issue - any Gunmaker making both configurations will alway list a "stackbarrel" at a premium over it's vertically challenged siblings.

Leaving aside the issues of gape and cost it really comes down to personal preference as it does for shotguns.

For example, a shooter that is seeing large slabs of barrel on an U/O with his left eye, could well have an eye dominance problem?

Comforting to know though that the U/O double rifle is held in such low regard, that if/when I come across my personal "grail"; a Boss O/U double rifle, preferably in .470NE, none of you blokes will want it!

P.S. For those that missed it - the Boss is the only true O/U - all the other "superposed" jobs are U/O's, since Boss held that only their action was strong enough to set them to shoot top barrel first!

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4seventy
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Re: Why is the O/U inferior for DG [Re: 4seventy]
      #17460 - 30/07/04 08:52 PM

Well I can only hold the O/U or U/O or whatever behind bars for a little while longer.
If you guys cannot come up with some hard evidence against it I'm afraid I'll have to uncuff it and release it!
The bigger gape causing slower and harder opening and reloading is IMO merely heresay evidence!
You'll all have to come up with something a lot better or we'll have to close the case and admit that the stackbarrel is just as good as the SxS for use on DG!


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ALAN_MCKENZIE
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Re: Why is the O/U inferior for DG [Re: 4seventy]
      #17461 - 30/07/04 10:08 PM

As far as I am concerned the OU or UO barrel configuration is a lot easyier to point and shoot than a SXS..
I've used both and prefer an L1A1 ,LOL

Seriously an OU or UO with double triggers is a treat to shoot.
Just my opinion and thoughts..
Al

--------------------
"Dogs always bark at their master"
Sir Seretse Khama.25th June 1949

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atkinson6
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Re: Why is the O/U inferior for DG [Re: ALAN_MCKENZIE]
      #17472 - 31/07/04 05:22 AM

That big gap opening the O/U is your choice, It can be hard to do sometimes IMO...but whoever decides to use a U/U rifle is fine with me, its all about choices and we all make our own and live with that decision, right or wrong...

I do have a problem with the quality of most of them and the way they shoot is terrible..I have yet to see one in Africa...but again that my personal opine..

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DUGABOY1
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Re: Why is the O/U inferior for DG [Re: 4seventy]
      #17473 - 31/07/04 05:28 AM

Well, I won't give an opinion on this question, I find it hard to make a stand on facts, with a man who's mind is made up!

--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"

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4seventy
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Re: Why is the O/U inferior for DG [Re: DUGABOY1]
      #17477 - 31/07/04 07:18 AM

In reply to:

Well, I won't give an opinion on this question, I find it hard to make a stand on facts, with a man who's mind is made up!



Mac,
As far as I'm concerned the jury is still out on this one.
The whole reason for this post is to get as many opinions as possible and yours and everyone elses is most welcome.
If you have some facts which could swing the case one way or another, I'm sure we would all like to hear them.

My mind is definately not made up on this subject,
but what about yours?

Actually "facts" are a bit thin on the ground with this.

I think that everyone would agree that it is a fact that the O/U configeration needs the barrels to open further than SxS.
Also it would be a fact that (all things being equal) this greater opening distance will take more time to achieve than the shorter travel of SxS barrels.

But all the rest, like harder to load, slower to load, narrow sighting plane, lower barrel sighting distraction, poor accuracy etc are at this point really only opinions IMO






Edited by 4seventy (31/07/04 11:19 AM)

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mickey
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Re: Why is the O/U inferior for DG [Re: 4seventy]
      #17482 - 31/07/04 10:08 AM

Alan, PLEASE don't tell us your new wunderweapon is an O/U. I have a mental image of a Biakal or a BRNO with .500NE inserts.

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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4seventy
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Re: Why is the O/U inferior for DG [Re: mickey]
      #17483 - 31/07/04 10:58 AM

In reply to:

Alan, PLEASE don't tell us your new wunderweapon is an O/U.



Ok I won't.


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mickey
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Re: Why is the O/U inferior for DG [Re: 4seventy]
      #17484 - 31/07/04 12:04 PM

In reply to:

Poster: 4seventy
Subject: Re: Why is the O/U inferior for DG


In reply to:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Alan, PLEASE don't tell us your new wunderweapon is an O/U.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Ok I won't.





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INSTEAD OF HORIZONTALLY

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Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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4seventy
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Re: Why is the O/U inferior for DG [Re: mickey]
      #17488 - 31/07/04 05:11 PM

Heh heh, well, you'll never never know if you never never go!

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mickey
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Re: Why is the O/U inferior for DG [Re: 4seventy]
      #17491 - 01/08/04 12:11 AM

I've have shot on O/U Browning in 30-06 that a friend in Aus owns a bit. Some 'Roos, some pigs, a few foxes. It is accurate enough, without scope, light and handy. The issue of loading the bottom barrel did not arise because of the relaxed nature of our shooting and the short size of the '06 cartridge.

I do think that the longer NE cartridges would be a problem if one were in a hurry as the rifle has to be broke open quite abit farther than a sxs.

I would like to have one of the combo sets with the 20 gauge barrels. A set in '06 or 270 with a QD scope would be pretty nice. I have looked around for a long time to find one that is used a bit and not in new condition but people around here don't seem interested in shooting them.



--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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mehulkamdar
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Re: Why is the O/U inferior for DG [Re: jgttechjunkie]
      #17537 - 03/08/04 07:39 AM

jgtechjunkie,

I have some old photographs of John Dickson's side opening O/U shotgun in Pollard's History of Firearms back in India but as far as I know they do not make them these days.

Are you aware of any other British gunmaker making these now? Please do check and let us know as this would be very interesting information for everyone here.

Good hunting!

--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

Mehul Kamdar

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jgttechjunkie
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Re: Why is the O/U inferior for DG [Re: mehulkamdar]
      #17542 - 03/08/04 12:10 PM

Mehulkamdar -
I saw a full page advertisement for a newly built side opening Engish OU shotgun in the Shooting Sportsman sometime in the last two years. They may even have had an article on it, but a casual search of the web did not turn up anything and unfortunately I don't remember the name of the company!
JGT

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