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xausa
.400 member


Reged: 07/03/07
Posts: 2037
Loc: Tennessee, USA
Smithson scope mount
      #172121 - 26/11/10 01:44 PM

I'm having a .505 Gibbs built on a Granite Mountain action and am considering using a Smithson scope
mount (http://www.smithson-gunmaker.com/mounts.htm) with it.

I would be interested in anyone's experiences with this mount, good, bad or indifferent. I understand it is available in medium height only. Is this a problem?


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CHAPUISARMES
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Reged: 16/01/08
Posts: 2908
Loc: DUBBO, NSW, AUSTRALIA
Re: Smithson scope mount [Re: xausa]
      #172131 - 26/11/10 07:31 PM


Hi Xausa,

That is the first time that I have seen them but it appears to be quality. As for the "Medium" height, it would depend on what size scope your intending to use. Why not ask if you have already decided on a scope but it looks like a 50mm scope should be Ok.

Cheers,

Jeff Gray

.


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Mike_Bailey
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Reged: 26/02/07
Posts: 2289
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Re: Smithson scope mount [Re: CHAPUISARMES]
      #172132 - 26/11/10 08:15 PM

Looks superb, cheers, Mike

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xausa
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Reged: 07/03/07
Posts: 2037
Loc: Tennessee, USA
Re: Smithson scope mount [Re: CHAPUISARMES]
      #172138 - 27/11/10 01:14 AM

My concern with the height of the rings is that I don't want to have the line of sight through the scope substantially different from that of the iron sights. Having to lift my cheek off the stock of a .505 to see through the scope is just asking to be slapped in the face with recoil. For that reason, I would like the scope mounted as low as the bolt handle allows. Conversely, I don't want to have to press my face into the stock to use the iron sights, which would be the case if the comb of the stock were raised to accomodate the scope.

Moreover, I want to be looking straight through the scope when I bring the rifle to my shoulder. The scope I have in mind is a Leupold Vari-X III 1.5-5X or something of the same nature (straight tube, relatively long eye relief).

What particularly appeals to me about the Smithson setup is the uncluttered appearance of the receiver top with the scope dismounted, plus the option of the aperture receiver sight which can be fitted to the rear mount base.

I never had a scope mounted on my wildcat .505 and never found that I needed one, but I can imagine that the situation might arise which dictated the use of a scope, and I would rather have it and not need it than need it and not have it, as one of my former clients remarked when charged with unlawfully carrying a concealed weapon.


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kuduae
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Reged: 13/01/10
Posts: 1756
Loc: middle of Germany
Re: Smithson scope mount [Re: xausa]
      #172147 - 27/11/10 09:06 AM

Several old German mounting system, for instance by Schüler, used the idea to use form-fitting dovetails combined with a push-button or lever to lock it against lengthwise movement. This idea was discarded long ago, because any such merely form-fit without a clamping effect will develop "play" when sujected to frequent recoil or after some detaching/reattaching. FI such a system was used in WW2 on sniper 98Ks with the "Kurze Seitenmontage". In the course of time an rather ungainly clamping screw was added to these mounts still in sevice to take up the developing looseness. For new sniper rifles it was soon replaced by other mounting systems. I would deeply mistrust such a mount on a heavy recoilig rifle, no matter how well made!

--------------------
German foresters: We like sustainability! For merely 300 years by 2013.


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eagle27
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Reged: 24/01/09
Posts: 1109
Loc: Nelson, New Zealand
Re: Smithson scope mount [Re: kuduae]
      #172163 - 27/11/10 03:45 PM

Xausa

Don't discount Weaver bases and rings to get you the lowest mounting possible for your scope. I too detest high mounted scopes on a rifle where the need, or wish, to use the iron sights is a consideration and I also don't like iron sights raised up like Mt. Everest to get a sight picture over fancy but impractical scope bases. The original Oberndorf Mausers have relatively low iron sights and while my first thought was to not alter the bolt handle on mine but still have a scope option, I did manage to achieve all this as shown below. The head position for scope use is almost the same as for the iron sights when the Leupold 2x EER scope is removed.



Edited by CptCurl (27/11/10 10:56 PM)


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xausa
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Reged: 07/03/07
Posts: 2037
Loc: Tennessee, USA
Re: Smithson scope mount [Re: kuduae]
      #172171 - 28/11/10 01:05 AM

Axel,

Thanks for your input. However, should I decide on using this system, the scope would be the auxiliary sighting alternative, not the receiver sight. I never had a use for a scope on my wildcat .505 and I can't imagine a situation where one would be needed with this one, but as a lawyer, I always wear both a belt and suspenders, just in case.

I am more or less sure that as long as this rifle is in my possession the iron sights will be the ones which stay on it and the scope will be carefully stored in a nice leather case, should the occasion for using it arrive.


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sirrocco
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Reged: 10/12/06
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Loc: New Zealand, Italy
Re: Smithson scope mount [Re: xausa]
      #172184 - 28/11/10 03:46 AM

I saw a set of Smithsons being mounted to a Mauser the other week and here's another couple of considerations re this mounting system for your application. When the scope is removed the "internal dovetails" (that the rings fit into) are a perfect recess to catch dirt and crud, which is why these rings are supplied with blanking plates to be inserted when the rings aren't in place. The fit between the ring and base is very fine and should the internal dovetail have any degree of dirt in it I think you might find there is a potential battle getting the scope attached quickly. So if you are predominantly going to rely on your irons and then attach the scope for a long shot, then you have to decide whether you want carry the rifle with or without the blanking plates inserted or not, and weigh up the obvious disadvantages of either option. The other thing you may or may not be aware of is that you either need 3 hands or be sitting down to remove the scope as the Smithson rings require both release buttons to be depressed simultaneously, (one on each ring) to disengage the dentent to enable the scope/rings to be slid to the rear to detach from the dovetailed base. Something- 3 rd hand, knees or a vise needs to be holding the rife while this is done. They are beautifully machined, the workmanship is faultless but the concept may not be quite so perfect. I think for someone who is going to carry his rifle in the bush relying on irons and occasionally attaching their scope an external dovetail is superior for the obvious reasons, they are easy to clean.
For the money you cant beat Talley QD's, which is why they are the most specified and used QD ring on custom rifles today. They are reliable, repeatable, look good and are as cheap as chips for what they do/are. If of course your rifle is not ever going to be exposed to any dirt or need the scope to be removed quickly to take on a wounded buff in the jesse, then then you might enjoy the quality of manufacture of the Smithsons afford. Hope this helps with your thinking.


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xausa
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Re: Smithson scope mount [Re: sirrocco]
      #172224 - 28/11/10 05:31 PM

Quote:

If of course your rifle is not ever going to be exposed to any dirt ....




You could say the same thing about any double rifle. They. too, have a "very fine" fit between barrels and action, so I suppose they shouldn't be taken into a situation where they could be exposed to dirt and refuse to close.

Seriously, you make an interesting point, but I don't anticipate pulling out a scope and trying to mount it in the midst of a stalk. Range is not the consideration for using a scope. I am perfectly capable of hitting a small target at 300 yards with iron sights. Light conditions would be the determining factor, and that can be anticipated well before the fact, and the change in sighting equipment made at leisure, under controlled circumstances.

Incidentally, if the threat of contamination bothers you, never think of using claw mounts, which have the additional disadvantage of moving parts enclosed in the bases to get clogged up with dirt and grit.


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sirrocco
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Reged: 10/12/06
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Re: Smithson scope mount [Re: xausa]
      #172226 - 28/11/10 06:19 PM

Quote:

You could say the same thing about any double rifle. They. too, have a "very fine" fit between barrels and action, so I suppose they shouldn't be taken into a situation where they could be exposed to dirt and refuse to close.




Hmmm , you probably dont want to say that too loudly on this forum as there seems to be a few double gunophiles that frequent this forum and you might end up shattering some dreams of DG perfection. But hey we're in the Mauser den now. Perhaps to negate the potential difficulty in closing issue you've got to carry the double closed with the safety on and hope like hell it aint too hot? But in all reality, say in South or East Africa the only real threat would be twigs getting jammed in somewhere and then breaking off to cause a potential fit / closing problem. (Certainly in many areas of Zimbabwe or Zambia that has potential to be a real threat.)

Yes after I wrote my reply I was pondering the claw mount situation and thought they would really be no different to the Smithsons in the face of foreign matter. I guess its one of the good things about reading and contemplating issues that arise in these Q&A forums, it can clarify your thinking on the potential problems, or the pros and cons of something as simple as a scope mount option. And as we know, if anything is going to go wrong the chances of such happening are exponentially greater in the heat of a tense moment than they are at a leisurely pace at the range. The consequences can also be a little more drastic too.
I was interested in looking at claw mounts as an option but this is now a no go for me. I just dont like running the risk of a drama if there are other options that negate such problems. What's the down side of using Talleys on a DG rifle?

By the way have you ever had a peep through a Swarovski Z6 1-6. They have got a hell of a FOV and eye relief and cant imagine why you'd ever have take one off a resort to irons. Probably a little better than the Leupy in low light as well. Only mentioned it cos the GMA's and Smithsons arent budget items. Talleys and a Swaroski might be an alternative worth exploring.... Probably similarish total coin as the Leupy Smithson combo. Or Talleys and S&B 1.1-4x. Just a thought.

Its really impossible to stock a rifle to be perfect for both open sights and a scope, the line of sight of each is just too far apart to enable perfection for both, unless you are happy with a grappling hook for a foresight and say a high mounted peep at the rear. And one very real advantage (for me anyway, I know others will dispute this and I dont want to start a war) of having a scope sighted rifle is that the comb ends up being nice and high and straight which significantly reduces felt recoil and the risk of being beaten up by the consequences of Newtons 3rd law. Having it nice and straight means there will be way less stock rotation under recoil minimising lift and facial beatings. If you stock a rifle for irons the opposite is true and in addition you get no "cheek plant" when using a scope. You end up with the infamous and ludicrous German "chin on comb sighting position", which should stay in Germany for the rest of the worlds sake.



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xausa
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Reged: 07/03/07
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Re: Smithson scope mount [Re: sirrocco]
      #172271 - 29/11/10 04:30 AM

Quote:

Its really impossible to stock a rifle to be perfect for both open sights and a scope, the line of sight of each is just too far apart to enable perfection for both, unless you are happy with a grappling hook for a foresight and say a high mounted peep at the rear.




It may be impossible, but my Griffin & Howe rifles with G&H side mounts come pretty close to it. The beauty of the G&H mount to me is that the scope rings are virtually touching the receiver, when used with a straight tube scope.

As an old Marine Corps team shooter, I had the importance of a "spot weld" drilled into me and that consideration is always on my mind when mounting a scope. Having said that, most of my lighter rifles (.505 and below) have scopes as the sighting instrument of choice, and a Lyman 48 purely as a backup.

Unfortunately, I am too computer illiterate to post photos, but if you will PM me your email address, I'll send you a couple of photos of my G&H Model 70 in 7X57, which illustrates what I said above. It is obvious in the picture, that the bottom of the 22mm scope tube is virtually touching the open sight on the barrel.

Mr. Smithson tells me that his rings allow scopes to be mounted as low as the Granite Mountain bolt handle will allow, which sounds about perfect to me.

I like Talley mounts, and have several on various BRNO rifles, whose integral dovetail bases make for a really sturdy mounting system. However, they are not the most esthetically pleasing mounts in the world, and moreover I am loath to desecrate the Granite Mountain action by having dovetail slots cut in the side of the square bridges.


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sirrocco
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Re: Smithson scope mount [Re: xausa]
      #172275 - 29/11/10 05:48 AM

I guess we've all got different tastes which is just as well otherwise we'd all be trying to marry the same woman. I prefer the aesthetics (English spelling) of the Talleys and find the Smithsons a little too blocky or chunky in appearance, to the extent that I had my Harre 49 action slotted for Talleys. I am no expert in these matters but arent the double square bridges there to enable gunmakers to custom fit any ring to such "integral base blocks" that maybe desired? Given that they are a German thing? and knowing the German bent for logic in their gunmaking, it must be so.

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xausa
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Reged: 07/03/07
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Loc: Tennessee, USA
Re: Smithson scope mount [Re: sirrocco]
      #172285 - 29/11/10 10:39 AM

De gustibus non disputandum est.

The square bridges were designed to facilitate scope mounting, but in some cases that meant avoiding the questionable practice of dovetailing the receiver ring for a claw mount base by making the protuberance available for that purpose, or for machining the claw mount bases directly into the receiver.

Nowadays we see pivot mount bases installed the same way, but the Germans are not too fond of Aufschubmontagen (mounts by which the rings are secured to the bases by a dove tail arrangement, like the Talley) and I have never seen a German double square bridge Mauser fitted with such a mount, as opposed to the Czech BRNO/CZ rifles, with their integral dovetail bases, which were obviously designed with that sort of ring arrangement in mind.


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sirrocco
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Reged: 10/12/06
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Re: Smithson scope mount [Re: xausa]
      #172356 - 30/11/10 07:54 AM

Yes, unless of course they look like Weavers and then I think a suit could be filed at the local court house. They have definitely been hit with the ugly stick.

I guess those Germans must subject their rifles to some fairly rough experiences while sitting in their Hochsitz for the dovetail ring systems to fail. I have used them for years in a wide variety of fairly rugged, if not abusive environments, and so far so good.


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kuduae
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Re: Smithson scope mount [Re: sirrocco]
      #172364 - 30/11/10 09:39 AM

I think we are going full circle here! The early experience with merely form fitted,like the Smithson, without a clamping arrangement to take up slack like Weavers, Talleys or Warnes left the Germans with a deep mistrust. Dovetail "Aufschubmontagen" = slide on mounts were only regarded as suitable for low-recoil rifles like .22lr to .222 Rem as maximum. On such rifles simple clamp-on mounts are sufficient, so the importance of a recoil shoulder like FI the Weaver cross bar was forgotten. As any country gunsmith was trained to fit a claw-mount and as up to about 1960 the mounting was not charged if you bought rifle and/or scope from your local gunsmith, all other mounting systems were forgotten. When I made my Jägerprüfung = hunters course and test in 1964 only two scope mounts were taught: the slide-on for smallbores and the claw mounts for real hunting rifles.Only when the cost of handwork was climbing up in the 1970s, other mounts were thought about. OK, companies like EAW also made satisfactory dovetail-base top- and side-mounts, these were mainly made for export, rspecially to Scandinavian countries and Britain. So you see EAW side mounts more often on rifles imported from there then on domestic guns. I still remember when side-swing mounts, first by Triebel (not to be confused with the pre-war Suhl Triebel claw mounts!), then by EAW and Steyr, were regarded as radical novelties. You often encounter Brno ZKK rifles in Germany with dovetailed square bridges and peepsight milled through to accomodate claw-mount bases, and I have yet to see a 1960s Mannlicher-Schoenauer with the swing mount Steyr offered, these are invariably mounted with three-legged claw mounts. Nowadays swing mounts are the German standard, I myself am regarded as somehow exotic using dovetail Warne rings even on my .416 Rigby.

--------------------
German foresters: We like sustainability! For merely 300 years by 2013.


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