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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Big Bore Rifles
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Handloader52
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How popular is the 416 Taylor? (MD)
      #171979 - 24/11/10 08:26 AM

How popular is the 416 Taylor among serious shooters and should it be built on a Mark X Mauser with a McMillan stock? Looking for candid feedback.

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pablo_mauser_66
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Re: How popular is the 416 Taylor? (MD) [Re: Handloader52]
      #171981 - 24/11/10 09:09 AM

I would have said it wasn't that popular at all but in the last 2-3 years I have seen quite a few custom guns get built in OZ, it doesn't have the history of a 404J but its an easy build on a standard length action.

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gryphon
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Re: How popular is the 416 Taylor? (MD) [Re: pablo_mauser_66]
      #171982 - 24/11/10 09:39 AM

one of the sambar deer hunters here I know of has one built on a commercial 98 and swears by its hammer factor and accuracy

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FATBOY404
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Re: How popular is the 416 Taylor? (MD) [Re: gryphon]
      #171988 - 24/11/10 12:15 PM

PM 450 Ackley he has one.
I am sure he gets 2400 fps out of 400 grain Woodleigh's.
Very practical in my opinion and if I didn't like the history of the 404j it is what I would have built.

--------------------
"WHATEVER BLOWS YOUR HAIR BACK"

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tophet1
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Re: How popular is the 416 Taylor? (MD) [Re: FATBOY404]
      #171992 - 24/11/10 12:51 PM

I had a couple of shots from one earlier this year. It was Mauser 98 in a Boyds Stock. I don't know if the stock design had anything to do with it but the recoil was savage and vile. The classic slap not a push.

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DarylS
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Re: How popular is the 416 Taylor? (MD) [Re: tophet1]
      #171994 - 24/11/10 01:48 PM

It's ballistics mirror, or rather can mirror .416 Rigby or .416 Reminton & therefore I feel the weight of the rifle should be in the 9 to 9 1/2 pound category with iron sights - IF full power loads are going to be used. Loaded down to just over .450/400 levels, the rifle could be a bit lighter, of course.

Whatever stock and barrel contour that needs to be used to make weight, use it - imho, of course.

Anymore, heavy kickers are not fun for me to shoot - I really like my 9.3x57.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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DoubleD
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Re: How popular is the 416 Taylor? (MD) [Re: DarylS]
      #172002 - 24/11/10 03:36 PM

I have a 404 Express made by Barnes before he connected with Johnson. Late 40's early 50's? The rifle is a .416 caliber...don't ask me why 404 Express. It predates the Chatfield Taylor. The only difference between this chambering and the Chatfield-Taylor, is the Taylor has a slightly smaller shoulder diameter. I mean slight perhaps .010.



The interest in this cartridge configuration goes way back....I think at one time the Taylor was being looked at to become a commercial loading....some else might be able to shed some light on that.

I have only used it on deer using Barnes 300 grain bullet. It is extremely accurate and pleasant to shoot.

It is built on a 98 Mauser.

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DD, Ret.

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ozhunter
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Re: How popular is the 416 Taylor? (MD) [Re: DoubleD]
      #172012 - 24/11/10 07:37 PM

A very good round, but with the new 416Ruger, it will lose even more future users .

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Homer
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Re: How popular is the 416 Taylor? (MD) [Re: ozhunter]
      #172014 - 24/11/10 08:09 PM

G'Day Fella's,

Handloader 52, The whole reason for the .416 Chatfield-Taylor coming into being, was it's ability to operate in a .30-06 length magazine/action.
As Oz Hunter mentioned, now that the .416 Ruger is available, there really is no practical use for the .416 C-T.

Hope this helps

Doh!
Homer

--------------------
"Beware the Lolly Pop of Mediocrity,
Lick it Once and You Will Suck Forever"

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Dr_Deer
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Re: How popular is the 416 Taylor? (MD) [Re: Homer]
      #172019 - 24/11/10 10:07 PM

Given the options for parent brass to neck up or down to .416 C-T are varied whilst the Ruger relies on only Hornady .416 or .375 Ruger brass at this stage, I'd say the .416 C-T will be around for a while yet

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Dr_Deer
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Re: How popular is the 416 Taylor? (MD) [Re: DoubleD]
      #172020 - 24/11/10 10:11 PM

Quote:

The interest in this cartridge configuration goes way back....I think at one time the Taylor was being looked at to become a commercial loading....some else might be able to shed some light on that.



Commercially loaded by A Square, along with a few other obscurities
http://a-squareco.com/Ammunition.html

Whilst I've never heard of the ammo being available here, we can get the appropriately headstamped brass

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DarylS
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Re: How popular is the 416 Taylor? (MD) [Re: Dr_Deer]
      #172030 - 25/11/10 02:23 AM

Ken Waters wrote that he had a Ruger factory chambered Ruger M77 in .416 Taylor in his possession - the gun he used for the artical and load developement, of course. Ruger failed to go ahead with those plans on the .416 Taylor - obviously.

Waters was also able to achieve 2,400fps with 400gr. bullets. This is quite remarkable, as Ken has always been quite conservative in his loads. He did note he had to use the slower burning IMR4320, compared to "Charlie's"( think it was C. Askin's) IMR3031.

John Whooters is one more hunter who used a .416 Taylor for Cape Buffalo. His loads were 2,400fps using IMR420 with the Colorado Custom(early Barnes, were't they?) pure lead cored, copper tubing jacketed 400's - spun closed for solids and rounded lead tipped for softs - all in .049" jacketes. At that time, you could get either .032" or .049" jackets for every bullet diameter made. Today, all the 'original' Barnes have only .032" jackets.

This is all IIRC. Sometimes the memory works well, sometimes it doesn't.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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szihn
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Re: How popular is the 416 Taylor? (MD) [Re: DarylS]
      #172038 - 25/11/10 03:21 AM

I have built quite a few 416s in the last 25 years and in my opinion, the .416 Taylor is the very best of the .416s for an all around rifle one can get. It has no faults at all.

In the world of custom guns, the Taylor will give you excellent ballistics that are exactly equal to the original .416 Rigby load, in a standard GEW length 98 Mauser action.

What that means to the buyer is that for any given budget (let's say $2500) you will get a far less expensive action and far less expensive brass to start out with. So in the $2500amount, you will get more gunsmithing and/or better wood, and have more money to spend on other features than you would if you wanted to make a .416 bore rifle on a longer and more expensive action.
Anyone that thinks that a .416 bullet of 400 grains at 2350 FPS is “just not enough” has either never used one, or should step up to a larger bore size. The Old Rigby is never condemned by anyone that has used it, or even seen it used, and the Taylor is identical in its ballistics.

In short, at a given budget, you will get a nicer 416 caliber rifle in the Taylor then you will in about any other .416, and you give up absolutely nothing in doing it.

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hunter_angler
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Re: How popular is the 416 Taylor? (MD) [Re: szihn]
      #172043 - 25/11/10 06:03 AM

I have always been more of a rimmed cartridge (double/single/lever) guy (just old school I guess), but I have always been intrigued by the .416 Taylor.

First, just the fact that the much-maligned .458 WIN was improved by necking the case down to create a winner in .416 caliber, as Mr. Zihn has pointed out, matching the ballistics of one of the best all around African cartridges of all time, the Rigby, in a round that can fit in a shorter, handier action.

Second, being a lever aficionado, I would love some day to have a custom Browning BLR built in .416 Taylor or maybe the new .416 Ruger. That would be a modern levergun I would scope and use on virtually anything, anywhere on the planet.

Enough velocity to shoot relatively flat out to 200 yards, and enough power for dangerous game in a gun you can confidently and fully cycle without it ever leaving your shoulder.

Edited by hunter_angler (25/11/10 10:46 AM)

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450_Ackley
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Re: How popular is the 416 Taylor? (MD) [Re: hunter_angler]
      #172046 - 25/11/10 06:57 AM

I've got both a 416 Taylor and a 416 Ruger.
They both have the same make of barrel, the same specs, twist, length etc. The barrels are even consecutively serial numbered, one is stainless (Taylor) and the Ruger barrel is Chrome-moly. I can get near enough to 2400 in the Taylor using RE 15, but can't get anywhere near 2400 in the Ruger without flattening primers. Apparently the makers CM barrels are not lapped, whereas the stainless ones are, which would make me think that the stainless barrel is very slightly larger and smoother, allowing a greater velocity.
I built both to compare them against one another, have'nt had the Ruger long enough to form a solid opinion yet, but it will have to be good to beat a 416 Taylor in my humble opinion.

David.

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450_Ackley
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Re: How popular is the 416 Taylor? (MD) [Re: hunter_angler]
      #172047 - 25/11/10 07:03 AM

Quote:

Second, being a lever aficionado, I would love some day to have a custom Browning BLR built in .416 Taylor or maybe the new .416 Ruger. That would be a modern levergun I would scope and use on virtually anything, anywhere on the planet.



A gunsmith mate of mine has anready built 3 Browning BLR's in 416 Ruger, he starts with a 300 Win Mag and using the takedown feature, rebarrels to 416 Ruger, no other modifications at all. Feeds great, they shoot really well, other than recoil being a bit heavy.
He now has an engineering firm making the "locking recess" part to then have a number of barrels already chambered and headspaced, making it a true switch barrel affair.

David.

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hunter_angler
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Re: How popular is the 416 Taylor? (MD) [Re: 450_Ackley]
      #172050 - 25/11/10 07:21 AM

Thanks for the info, David.

I know some BLRs and even BARs have been built in .416 Taylor as well, again with the longer (relatively speaking) action in .300 WIN Mag as the starting point.

I am sure you would need to add a very good recoil pad, and maybe some extra weight and porting too as the BLR is a relatively light gun. Then again, the quick handling characteristics are part of the appeal.

It would be cool to have a takedown with a two barrel set in .300 + .416!

Just day dreamin' I guess...

Jeff.

--------------------
Semper Paratus

Edited by hunter_angler (25/11/10 07:27 AM)

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Dr_Deer
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Re: How popular is the 416 Taylor? (MD) [Re: 450_Ackley]
      #172063 - 25/11/10 11:57 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Second, being a lever aficionado, I would love some day to have a custom Browning BLR built in .416 Taylor or maybe the new .416 Ruger. That would be a modern levergun I would scope and use on virtually anything, anywhere on the planet.



A gunsmith mate of mine has anready built 3 Browning BLR's in 416 Ruger, he starts with a 300 Win Mag and using the takedown feature, rebarrels to 416 Ruger, no other modifications at all. Feeds great, they shoot really well, other than recoil being a bit heavy.
He now has an engineering firm making the "locking recess" part to then have a number of barrels already chambered and headspaced, making it a true switch barrel affair.

David.



David,

Good to know someone is cornering this market, any chance of naming the 'smith (by PM if you wish)?

It would also be interesting to know if they went the whole hog and are producing enlarged lever loops for "gloved hands" aka those with big hands who do not fancy having them crushed in the manner that Marlin .45/70's with full house loads are notorious for.

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hunter_angler
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Re: How popular is the 416 Taylor? (MD) [Re: Dr_Deer]
      #172065 - 25/11/10 01:05 PM

In the USA I believe Z-Hat has done the BLR conversions.

http://www.z-hat.com/

DoubleTap also loads .416 Taylor, including 450 grain Woodleighs at 2250 fps.

http://www.doubletapammo.com/php/catalog/index.php?cPath=21_61

Nice, huh?

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Semper Paratus

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450_Ackley
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Re: How popular is the 416 Taylor? (MD) [Re: hunter_angler]
      #172076 - 25/11/10 06:54 PM

Dr. Deer,
I'm happy to name the 'smith, he won't mind.
It's Jim Kent, Buffalo Gunsmithing in Toowoomba.
I won't put his phone number on here, but if anyone wants it, I'm happy to PM it to them.

The enlarged lever might be a bit harder on a BLR, from a trigger and manufacturing point of view I would expect.

Regards,
David.

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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: How popular is the 416 Taylor? (MD) [Re: 450_Ackley]
      #172089 - 25/11/10 10:35 PM

Quote:

I've got both a 416 Taylor and a 416 Ruger.
They both have the same make of barrel, the same specs, twist, length etc. The barrels are even consecutively serial numbered, one is stainless (Taylor) and the Ruger barrel is Chrome-moly. I can get near enough to 2400 in the Taylor using RE 15, but can't get anywhere near 2400 in the Ruger without flattening primers. Apparently the makers CM barrels are not lapped, whereas the stainless ones are, which would make me think that the stainless barrel is very slightly larger and smoother, allowing a greater velocity.
I built both to compare them against one another, have'nt had the Ruger long enough to form a solid opinion yet, but it will have to be good to beat a 416 Taylor in my humble opinion.

David.



David, it's interesting to hear your first-hand comparison of these two cartridges. Can you or anybody tell us how the case capacity compares between the .416 Taylor and the .416 Ruger? Also, in terms of loading one or the other, how do powder charges compare?

What actions are your two rifles on?

Thanks,
Curl

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YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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SharpsNitro
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Re: How popular is the 416 Taylor? (MD) [Re: CptCurl]
      #172098 - 26/11/10 03:10 AM

The case capacities on www.ammoguide.com list them as being 86.0gr water for the Taylor and 95.7gr water for the Ruger. This sounds reasonable given the larger body diameter of the Ruger.

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DarylS
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Re: How popular is the 416 Taylor? (MD) [Re: SharpsNitro]
      #172100 - 26/11/10 04:36 AM

Interesting - the Ruger Capacity is then virtually identical to my .450/.458 Alaskan. Of course, the .348 case is somewhat stronger.

I am also somewhat miffed as to why David's Ruger won't match the smaller cased Taylor.

Perhaps a different powder would work? It is possible that Re#15 is too fast burning for the Ruger's case, but shouldn't be that much too fast. The larger the capacity for any given bore size, the slower the powder that must be used.

I don't think the difference is whether it's polished or not - my .375/06 IMP has a fairly heavy taper 416 stainless, certainly not polished and rough'ern a cob inside - it copper fouls badly, but - does manage to beat chronographed factory .375H&H ballistics, so it's a 'fast' barrel. It also puts 270gr. TSX's into touching cloverleafs virtually every three shots - at 2,700fps.(2,770fps is max) 80gr., capacity to the top of the neck.

Some barrels are slow - - - some are fast. Then, there's everything in between.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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450_Ackley
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Re: How popular is the 416 Taylor? (MD) [Re: DarylS]
      #172107 - 26/11/10 08:02 AM

Curl,
My 416 Taylor is a Classic stainless Win M70 and the Ruger is an old P14, quite heavily modified.
At one stage I tried a load of AR 2208 (Varget) in the Ruger and got a bit closer, but still not up to Taylor velocities. I'm thinking of trying a bit slower powder again, maybe even AR 2209 (H 4350) but I think it will be too slow perhaps. I've also just got a tin of RE 17, it might be just what I need, also have some VV N540 as well.
The Ruger hasn't fired a lot yet, so it needs a lot more work. I've got the page of load data from Hornady, so need to have a better read of that to see what they found.
A fellow shooter at Dalby has a 338-06 with a Douglas barrel which is a really slow barrel, he has trouble getting to the 3000 ft lb limit for Group 1, mine has a Lilja barrel and gets a lot higher velocities, and Fatboy has one with a MADDCO barrel that seems quite a deal faster again. (Although his is built on a pipe gun!)

All very interesting.

Regards,
David.

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Dr_Deer
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Re: How popular is the 416 Taylor? (MD) [Re: 450_Ackley]
      #172120 - 26/11/10 01:30 PM

Quote:

Dr. Deer,
I'm happy to name the 'smith, he won't mind.
It's Jim Kent, Buffalo Gunsmithing in Toowoomba.
I won't put his phone number on here, but if anyone wants it, I'm happy to PM it to them.

The enlarged lever might be a bit harder on a BLR, from a trigger and manufacturing point of view I would expect.

Regards,
David.



Thanks mate.

With the integrated trigger in the lever it would be a complex exercise but a worthwhile one in my mind, as would be a drop box mag giving it a profile looking like a bastard son of a 1895 (which is what they are anyway )

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