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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Big Bore Rifles
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Igorrock
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9,3x70 DWM
      #170497 - 29/10/10 01:57 AM

Has anybody info of that old german caliber ?

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rigbymauser
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Re: 9,3x70 DWM [Re: Igorrock]
      #170556 - 30/10/10 01:53 AM

Its a very powerfull caliber made to Hermann Göring back in the 30`s.

There was 3 loads from DWM, and I remember from an artical the 292grain bullet did some 852 m/sek.
I have one of these cartridges in my collection somewhere. It measures 89mm C.O.L, and is loaded by EXPERT. Modern loads also comes with woodleighs 320grain @ 820 M/sek.
The casevolume should be 15% larger than the .375H&H

DWM-Klassiker: 9,3x70

Die 9,3 x 70 - weitgehend unbekannt und doch bestens geeignet für weite Schüsse auf schweres Wild

Hansgeorg Arndt



Von Roland Zeitler
Während die Patronen 9,3x62, 9,3x64 und 9,3x74R allseits bekannt sind, können die wenigsten Jäger etwas mit der Kaliberbezeichnung 9,3x70 anfangen. Die DWM-Patronenfabrik in Karlsruhe beschäftigte sich in den 20er Jahren mit Patronenentwicklungen auf Basis der .404 Jeffery-Hülse (alias 10,75x73). Aus der Grundhülse wurden Kaliber wie 7,65x70, 7,65x77, 8x73 und eben auch die 9,3x70 entwickelt.

Von den genannten Patronen ist wohl nur die 9,3x70 in Serienfertigung gegangen. Die Patrone mit Rille, 70-Millimeter-Hülse und 30-Grad-Schulter wurde seit Ende der 20er Jahre von DWM gefertigt und mit Geschossen von 15,0 bis 18,59 Gramm ausgestattet. Obwohl sich mit Kunstgriffen die Patrone noch in Standard-98er-Systeme unterbringen läßt, ist es ein typisches Kaliber für das Mauser-Magnumsystem.

Wiederbelebt wurde dieses alte Kaliber von Harald Wolff (Belgien) und Günter Frères. Johannsen bietet fünf Laborierungen (davon eine Vollmantel) an, versehen mit Geschossen von 250, 285, 300 und 320 Grains. Zwölf Patronen kosten zwischen 122 und 134 Mark. Die Laborierung mit dem 300 Grains Swift-A-Frame-Geschoß erbrachte aus der Testwaffe eine V5 von 825 Meter/Sekunde, was rechnerisch eine Energie von 6616 Joule ergibt. Je nach verladenem Geschoß reichen die Energiewerte von rund 6500 bis knapp 7000 Joule an der Mündung. Zum Vergleich schafft die 9,3x64 etwa 5800 Joule.
Die 9,3x70 eignet sich für weite Schüsse auf schweres Wild. Sie ist ideal für Bären, Wapiti, Elch, Löwe und Plains Game. Aber auch für Rot- und Schwarzwild stellt sie eine gute Wahl dar.

Hansgeorg Arndt





Edited by rigbymauser (30/10/10 02:38 AM)

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HuntingSchneider
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Re: 9,3x70 DWM [Re: Igorrock]
      #170561 - 30/10/10 03:32 AM

Quote:

Has anybody info of that old german caliber ?




Hatari times had an article on it in one of the first couple of editions. I'll see if I can find it.

I was/am also interested in one, but have had some trouble with a set of dies. The ones I purchased cracked and I was informed by the importer that the brass I was using was too hard ?????????????????



.

--------------------
Liberals, stealing firearms since '96.
Steal one firearm, you're a thief. Steal a million, you're a Prime Minister.

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Igorrock
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Re: 9,3x70 DWM [Re: HuntingSchneider]
      #170568 - 30/10/10 05:32 AM

Thanks for your posting. Is it possible to have any fotos of that "monster"?

I have an idea to shorten .404 case so much that it fits to .30-06 -lenght action and then maybe neck it down to 9,3 bullet. Thats why I like .404`s small shoulder angle, long neck and case without any belt.

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Yochanan
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Re: 9,3x70 DWM [Re: Igorrock]
      #170569 - 30/10/10 06:02 AM

I got the article on file.

Let me know where to send it.

Cheers
Johan

--------------------
© "I have never been able to appreciate 'shock' as applied to killing big game. It seems to me that you cannot kill an elephant weighing six tons by ´shock´unless you advocate the use of a field gun." - W.D.M. Bell: Wanderings of an Elephant Hunter.

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DarylS
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Re: 9,3x70 DWM [Re: Yochanan]
      #170579 - 30/10/10 06:37 AM

15% greater capacity than a .375H&H would be just about identical to the capacity of a .375H&H Ackley Improved, which is a couple gr. more than a .375 Weatherby.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Yochanan
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Re: 9,3x70 DWM [Re: DarylS]
      #170581 - 30/10/10 07:00 AM

Igorrock.
C.O.L - for 9,3x70 is 89mm. It will quite easily fit in a Brno ZG-47 action.

--------------------
© "I have never been able to appreciate 'shock' as applied to killing big game. It seems to me that you cannot kill an elephant weighing six tons by ´shock´unless you advocate the use of a field gun." - W.D.M. Bell: Wanderings of an Elephant Hunter.

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Rolf
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Re: 9,3x70 DWM [Re: Yochanan]
      #170849 - 02/11/10 11:00 PM

Gentlemen,

Johannsen in Germany makes custom rifles in this caliber.
(www.johannsen-jagd.de)

Cases are not listed in the Horneber standard catalogue (http://www.huelsen-horneber.de/frame.html) but he produces also cases for custom orders.
If we find enough people interested in this caliber, we can make a collect order...
I would step in with both feet! :-)

Energy level:
Assumed that the .375 H&H is equal to 9,3x64, then the 9,3x70 should be similar to the .375 Weatherby.

And now with the 320grs bullets in 9,3mm from Degol (or Woodleigh?) available!

best regards
Rolf

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kuduae
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Re: 9,3x70 DWM [Re: Rolf]
      #170921 - 05/11/10 11:23 AM

Here are the pages from the 1934 "Patrone und Schuss" DWM catalog, showing the original loads:



--------------------
German foresters: We like sustainability! For merely 300 years by 2013.

Edited by CptCurl (05/11/10 10:59 PM)

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reddy375
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Re: 9,3x70 DWM [Re: kuduae]
      #189900 - 14/09/11 12:42 PM

From what I have heard "it was Gorings favorite caliber" is a figment of Harold Wolfs imagination! Anyway it is a thumper, I have used it in Namibia. Belongs to a german PH friend who is passionate about guns. Shot a very nice 41"+ gemsbok and a good springbok with it last year. His gun is a new rifle made by Johansen in germany I believe. He reloads for it using 404 brass.





--------------------
Arjun Reddy
www.huntersnetworks.com
30 Ivy Hill Road
Brewster, NY 10509
Tel: 845 259 3628
Email:arjun@huntersnetworks.com

Edited by reddy375 (14/09/11 12:50 PM)

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rigbymauser
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Re: 9,3x70 DWM [Re: reddy375]
      #189927 - 15/09/11 04:30 AM


Great posting. It is rare to see game today shot with the 9.3x70.

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Bison
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Re: 9,3x70 DWM [Re: reddy375]
      #208524 - 18/05/12 08:37 AM

Do you have any load information...in English system, please... What velocity in fps with what bullet
weight was used.
Harold Wolf only said that that a Berlin gunmaker, Ludwig Schiwy had built a rifle in the 9.3x70 on special order for Herman Goring in his Hatari Times news. He did not ay that it was Herman Goring's
favorite as far as I can find.
Best Regards,

Tom

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Igorrock
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Re: 9,3x70 DWM [Re: Bison]
      #208544 - 18/05/12 05:19 PM

Maybe this helps ?

http://www.namibianhunter.de/Hunting/Hunting/Guns.html

First click "Reloading for African rifles", then choose caliber 9,3x70 and submit....
This machine is very usefull for other "african" calibers too.



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http://promaakari.wordpress.com/

Edited by Igorrock (18/05/12 05:20 PM)

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Bison
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Re: 9,3x70 DWM [Re: Igorrock]
      #208567 - 19/05/12 04:25 AM


Thanks, Yes it does help. I wanted to compare my 9.3x64 Newton cartridge with the 9.3x70 Mag.

My 9.3 Newton is more powerful'

Best Regards,

Tom email: bisonland1@optimum.net

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Igorrock
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Re: 9,3x70 DWM [Re: Bison]
      #208569 - 19/05/12 06:09 AM

Is 9,3x64 Newton a kind of Ackley Improved version of Brenneke one´s?

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Bison
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Re: 9,3x70 DWM [Re: Igorrock]
      #208610 - 20/05/12 01:47 AM


Hello Igorrock;

Glad you asked. Not really...I'll fill you in on the 9.3x64 Newton now:

The case does look similar to the 9.3x64 Brenneke. But the 9.3x64 Newton case has more volume, I have a 9.3x64 Brenneke case & its case volume I carefully measured of this RWS case as 84.0 gr. water. The 9.3 Newton has 89 gr. water. However, the larger volume & more powder at the top end loading makes a good difference in velocity.

Here's how I made the 9.3x64 Newton. Its simply a .35 Newton case necked up to 9.3 caliber. The Newton cases are very good, a modern type case design with a big body, yet standard size length (.30-06 length).
However, even though .35 Newton cases are being made...they are too expensive! A better way is to just buy .375 Ruger brass, shorten the brass to 2.5 inches long & size it in the 9.3x64 Newton die.
You can also buy .375 Ruger "basic" brass that has no caliber headstamp, have it headstamped 9.3x 64 Newton, then size it.
Now...I have a .35 Newton chamber reamer...so my gunsmith used that on a 9.3 barrel, then a 9.3 neck reamer to make it the 9.3. I fired 3 cartridges, send the fired cartridges to Hornady and they made the custom 9.3x64 Newton dies for it. Since then, all I do is use .375 Ruger brass, shortened & sized
in the custom dies.
I corresponded with Harold Wolf as he made a 9.3x70 mag. rifle, and giving him my 9.3x64 Newton
ballistics, he said it was more than what he got from his 9.3x70 mag. and warned me about too high
pressures...but my pressure is OK.
If you put the 9.3x64 Brenneke next to the 9.3x64 Newton, you will notice that the Newton case has
a larger base, and shoulder diameter, and the shoulder angle on both cases look the same. The Newton
case neck is very slightly longer...but not much. Case lengths about the same. Its a better looking
case than the 9.3x64 Brenneke.I'm not sure if you know of Charles Newton, but he was the greatest
American case designer. I made the 9.3x64 Newton, a .416 Newton & a .450 (.458) Newton based on the
same parent Newton case...and they are all superior cartridges.
Best Regards,
Tom from Wyoming

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Bison
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Re: 9,3x70 DWM [Re: Bison]
      #208611 - 20/05/12 01:57 AM


Igorrock:

I can get 2900 fps with the 286 gr. bullet in my 9.3x64 Newton...the rifle was formerly a CZ 550
in 9.3x62 that I had my gunsmith convert to the more powerful 9.3x64 Newton as described above.
I have to do more "experimenting" with my loads...I only did some, then am handicapped as I had
shoulder surgery (rotator cuff) surgery & am still recovering & not strong yet to handle the weight
of rilfes...I have about 3 more months recovery period.
My .416 Newton was similarily made...using the .35 newton reamer for the case body, and a .416 neck
reamer for the .416 caliber. Performance & load data is similar to the .416 Taylor.
The .450 Newton(I chose the British ystem of caliber) is actually a .458. The performance of this
one really surprised me as it is as powerful .458 Lott! With a smaller case , and very slight
shoulder, the shoulder is minimal but it works fine! All cases are not belted, of course.

Best Regards,

Tom

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Igorrock
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Re: 9,3x70 DWM [Re: Bison]
      #208617 - 20/05/12 02:41 AM

OK, sounds like a bomb, Charles Newton was a kind of genius on his time. But I think just 9,3 mm Newton could be a better name for yours ammo. That´s because it has no relationship to 9,3x64 Brenneke, only same bullet diameter and the lenght of case. Brenneke has 7mm, 8mm, 9,3mm i.e. whole family of x64 ammos

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Bison
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Re: 9,3x70 DWM [Re: Igorrock]
      #208623 - 20/05/12 03:12 AM

Igorrock:

You are correct...but all the 9.3s used the length of the case in its designation, like there is
a 9.3x57, 9.3x62, 9.3x64, 9.3x72, 9.3x74...where the last number: 57, 62, 72, 74, etc. is the case length in mm. So...I used the "64" to indicate like the others...the case length of 64mm.
The 9.3 Newton case length is 64 mm.
The 9.3x70 magnum has a case length of 70mm....hence the 2nd number indicating case length...so is what I used to indicate the 9.3 Newton has a case length of 64mm.
I have a photo of the case comparison...but don't know how to post photos on this site?! or I'd post it for you to see the comparison...

Best regards,

Tom

ps. I used to have a Finnish/American friend...my sister used to correspond with a Finnish girl
in Helsinki

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Igorrock
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Re: 9,3x70 DWM [Re: Bison]
      #208626 - 20/05/12 04:38 AM

Yes, allmost all 9,3 mm caliber markings have the lenght of the case too. That´s because they all are european but 9,3 mm Newton is a wildcat and an US caliber so there are two good reasons to name it a little different way, like 8mm Mazón which is necked down 9,3 mm Brenneke.

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Bison
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Re: 9,3x70 DWM [Re: Igorrock]
      #208637 - 20/05/12 08:01 AM

Hi Igorrock:

Well...your idea is good...but its too late. I already have the cases being stamped "9.3x64 Newton"
and I wanted to have the name "Newton" on the case to give Mr. Newton the credit as its derived from
his Newton case...plus the dies are already stamped "9.3x64 Newton"..so like is said...its "water over the dam" now, or too late! Anyway, you ignore that "9.3" is metric anyway, if it were English
units, it would be .366 bore...
Still I think its the Best 9.3 cartridge...not extreme, yet probably the most powerful.
I once had a write up on an Internet site of having developed Newton Big Bore cartridge wildcats...but the site was removed later...it had photos & descriptions of my 9.3, .416 & .458
Newtons. If the site comes back...I'll forward you the link.
In any case...it was a good idea...as the big body Newton design lends itself to big bore
cartridges, yet efficient modern design.
Mostly...I didn't have a point to prove...just wanted to satisfy my own curiosity & am happy that I did it, as they all turned out very well!
I have some standard factory newton cartridges...the .256 Newton, .30 Newton, .35 Newton as well as the Big bore wildcats...9.3, .416 & .458 Newton wildcats.

Best Regards,

Tom

Edited by Bison (21/05/12 06:03 AM)

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CZ_hunter
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Re: 9,3x70 DWM [Re: Igorrock]
      #234902 - 31/08/13 03:22 AM

Here you can find an article and picture of the cartridge...
http://www.johannsen-jagd.de/data_de/presse/jagen/magnummanie.pdf

[image]http://[/image]

I believe the cartridge cries for the 320 grain bullet, the 300 grain bullet can be driven to 825 m/s (ca 2700 f/s) and generates 6600 J(ca 4900 ft.-lb.)

CZ

--------------------
CZ

Edited by CZ_hunter (31/08/13 03:25 AM)

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Yochanan
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Re: 9,3x70 DWM [Re: CZ_hunter]
      #234903 - 31/08/13 03:29 AM

If anyone interested, I got the Hatari times article on 9,3x70 DWM.

--------------------
© "I have never been able to appreciate 'shock' as applied to killing big game. It seems to me that you cannot kill an elephant weighing six tons by ´shock´unless you advocate the use of a field gun." - W.D.M. Bell: Wanderings of an Elephant Hunter.

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Igorrock
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Re: 9,3x70 DWM [Re: Yochanan]
      #236445 - 07/10/13 03:35 AM

This is old topic but time goes fast and in the mean time I have got an extra .416 barrel blank. Now I´m thinking over how difficult is open 9,3x64 case to .416 bullet....

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Ash
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Re: 9,3x70 DWM [Re: Igorrock]
      #237644 - 09/11/13 09:00 PM

Igorrock - that cartridge is in Cartridges of the World (at least, it is in 12th edition), listed as the "416 BGA". Velocity says 400gr @ 2200fps. Pages 262 & 263.

Reddy375, that is an absolutely gorgeous gun! Any more pictures?

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