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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Building Double Rifles & Gunsmithing

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DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26605
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: Proof... once again [Re: oupa]
      #170578 - 30/10/10 06:35 AM

Groovy Mike - oil does not increase the pressure of the load by burning. Every oiled ctg. I've used was still 'oiled' when I removed it from the chamber - at pressures over 60,000psi. Oil on the case walls increases the pressure against the breech block as an oiled case cannot grip the chamber walls in a normal manner.

In this case & other words meaning the same thing, the pressure of the load is decreased against the chamber walls and increased at the base.

To get dieseling, there must be sufficient combustable oil in the bore itself, to add to the conflagration of the powder. This happens more in pellet rifles, rather than in modern high powered firearms.

Normally, when the firing pin hits the primer, the case is shoved forward in the chamber until it stops and the powder starts burning, the rapidly expanding gasses expanding the case in all directions - pushign the primer back against the breech face or bolt face & the case releases the bullet into the bore. The case expands in proportion to the thickness of the case at various locations and the temper of the case walls base too. Due to the strength of the ctg. base, it does not expand behind the 'web(the thinning of the base into the case wall itself).

This expanded case, which has stopped against the front of the chamer & primer hard bck against the bolt or breech face, grips the chamber walls as much as it's pressed friction will allow until the pressure drops after the release of the bullet from the muzzle. Soem cases grip harder than others. The more taper, the less gripping ability the case has. The straighter (less taper) the case, the more gripping ability the case has - all else being equal as to finish, temper of the case, etc.

What also happens during the increase of pressure in normally tapered rounds developing pressure in excess of about 45,000PSI, the brass at the web loses it's ability to resist the pressure (passes it's elasticity level) and stretches, allow the case head to stop at the bolt or breech fase, reseating the primer whatever amount it protruded and sometimes excessively flattening it as well. That is why predicting pressure by reading primers alone is meaningless - barring blown primers, that is. It is also why some rounds and rifles show protruded primers when firing facotry ammo - sometimes extremely protruded primers - the pressure was below about 45,000PSI and perhaps the rifle has a headspace problem if protrusion is excessive. Excessive is regarded to be in excess of .006" in the States and .007" in Europe.

Now, getting back to the oil - a viscous oil could cause a swollen or ruptured chamber due to being incompressible as far as your rifle is concerned. Too much oil could reduce the expansion of the ctg. thereby decreasing the actual capacity enough that pressures were elevated slightly, but that would be against the breech, not the chamber walls. Personally, I would not allow anyone to place an oiled ctg. in any of my chambers. do use a very fine oil, applied with a lube pad when fireforming some wildcats, but not all.

I wonder how many or if any firearms being proofed - swelled the chamber and therefore "failed proof"?

How many of those were due to an overly-oiled ctg. being fired in them? These are merely questions - food for thought. There was a caution penned by a reputable gunsmith on a Wildcat forum I frequent about using a thicker oil than WD40 when fireforming. Perhaps the almsot straight sided cases are the only ones susceptable to this - I don't know.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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GroovyMike
.300 member


Reged: 07/04/09
Posts: 229
Loc: NY
Re: Proof... once again [Re: DarylS]
      #170582 - 30/10/10 07:10 AM

Thanks guys. Duly noted. I guess I'll be more thorough cleaning off those cases from now on.

--------------------
Delight yourself in the Lord and He will give you the desires of your heart. Psalm 37:4


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Brithunter
.300 member


Reged: 17/03/10
Posts: 184
Loc: Lincolnshire, England
Re: Proof... once again [Re: GroovyMike]
      #173074 - 14/12/10 10:33 AM

I have recently been informed that London proof house has been in a spot of bother over it's lax working attitudes but am not surprised as the time I had to take a Colt Official Police revolver in 38/200 for proof there as it bore no civilain proof marks well they took it from me went out back there was a muffled bang and they stamped it and handed me back the revolver. It was not cleaned not insepected just one cartidge fired and proof marks applied. As I understand it all six chambers should have been fired then cleaned and inspected. It's just a money making venture to them it seems.

I am led to believe that Birmingham is run differently and is now loading proof rounds for London. Currently I have a rifle at Birmingham for proof. I dropped it off with a local smith/RFD last week and he took it in to be proofed. Once it passes, hopefully with no problems, he will then be doing the final polish and bluing the rifle. As it's not a standard chambering but a wildcat I asked the proof house what they needed and they said three formed cases so i duely sent them three that I cleaned and re-sized ready for them. I also included the std head space gauge used in chambering and a not on how the chamber and breeching is set up. Now we wait the results but I am not really expecting any issues as it's a good action and a new barrel that was re-chambered but it's the first I have done myself. I fired 6 factory rounds through it and used three so make up dummies to check feeding from the magazine and three for the proof house and they came out lookign fine.

--------------------
Don't let the bastards grind you down!


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oupa
.300 member


Reged: 01/03/06
Posts: 127
Loc: Maryland,USA
Re: Proof... once again [Re: Brithunter]
      #173813 - 25/12/10 03:12 PM

Quote:

...As it's not a standard chambering but a wildcat... I fired 6 factory rounds through it...




Am I missing something?


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DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26605
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: Proof... once again [Re: Brithunter]
      #173843 - 26/12/10 05:47 AM

Now THAT is lax, Brithunter. What was the monetary 'charge' for that one round of 'proof'?.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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tinker
.416 member


Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada
Re: Proof... once again [Re: oupa]
      #173853 - 26/12/10 06:48 AM

Water can detonate too!
Although I've never managed to make it happen myself, I've discussed the phenomenon with a few old lab engineers.
The results are said to be pretty spectacular!






Cheers
Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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