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What gun are trying to regulate?

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CC,
If you have info on capped bullets or their replacements, why not share it on line?

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Interesting stuff.. Would you mind if I forwarded this information to Simon at Westley Richards? They are currently working on reintroducing this round again and may not have access to a x ray.

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When did you do the alloy analysis?





Cheers
Tinker

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I have to admit, if they could start making these in 20 bore with the projectile weighing 1 ounce travelling at 1400 fps I might consider an Ovundo with drop locks that patterned IC with shot, what an overall gun !! General ? thoughts ?
best
Mike

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Notice the brass hull, with 2-thickness carboard liner. I think I'd simply be matching weight and adjust for regulation by load. A hollow base with thick walls, or hollow point might be necessary to lighten a solid lead projectile while maintaining some length.

I wouldn't put the wieght of the pictured slug at much over 300gr. total weight.

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Notice the brass hull, with 2-thickness carboard liner. I think I'd simply be matching weight and adjust for regulation by load. A hollow base with thick walls, or hollow point might be necessary to lighten a solid lead projectile while maintaining some length.

I wouldn't put the wieght of the pictured slug at much over 300gr. total weight.

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There 425 grain projectiles.

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20 bore = 425 grains

pictured is a 12 bore cartridge
Super Magnum and standard Explora = 730 grains

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I wonder if they could be made in aluminum, and just have a solid head without upsetting the regulation too much ?. The aluminumheads could ofcouse have a hole drilled from the base to take even more weight from them.
The perfect head would ofcouse the make them in the alloys they originally were swaged in.

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Holland did use aluminum for their caps but they were hollow also to achieve the proper weight. Wood was also tried and those caps were solid.
It will be interesting to see, going forward, how Westley will solve the manufacturing problems of this projectile. Will they copy per exact detail the original or cut corners and use modern materials but maintain weight and overall configuration. They may conceive a totally different but similar projectile. I am sure they won't need to use the extra "accelerant" used by LT and copied by Holland to get the velocity/pressure right.

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"Recoil is insignificant when there is a tiger on the head of your elephant" The Maharaja of Cooch Behar

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When is SCI Reno General ?, best, Mike

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The nose-cone of that LT bullet isn't very difficult to manufacture, about the same as a typical sweater or cape button. With the right machine and tooling they can be spit out by the thousands.
They would be quite 'classy' in brass alloy.


Cheers
Tinker

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The nose-cone of that LT bullet isn't very difficult to manufacture, about the same as a typical sweater or cape button. With the right machine and tooling they can be spit out by the thousands.
They would be quite 'classy' in brass alloy.


Cheers
Tinker

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Tinker,

Evidence suggests the nose-cones were spun. Normally this is done over a mandrel, I think in this case they used an concave recess cut to the outside dimensions of the finished cap? The tool would push the sheet brass disk into this form die in such a way that the cap was conformed to the inside of the die. A rabit was then cut into inside of the base of the cone to thin the brass and create a depth control to recieve the top-hat brass base. Some sort of ejection system would push out the finished cap?

The top-hat brass base was stamped out. This was inserted into the rabit on the cone and the base of the cone was then rolled over (crimped) the top-hat, locking it in place. At this point, or somewhere else along the way the nose-cap was annealed, probabally to a dead-soft condition. The lead cup was then swedged over the top-hat? In disection of original LT capped bullets, it seems there was some sort of spotty bond (cold) between the lead and the brass alloy front.

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I always picture some old machine or press pushed back into a corner of a warehouse or basement in England and about every two or three years some guy saying " That old thing? I don't really know, I think it makes some sort of widgit or some such thing. Should just throw it out."

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"Recoil is insignificant when there is a tiger on the head of your elephant" The Maharaja of Cooch Behar

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Original performance claimed by Westley Richards IMO is highly suspect. I say this b/c with modern game laws, the slug gun is necessary in many regions. If the LT's viable at 2-300 yard it seems someone would be punching out something similar in the correct diameter to run thru the plethora of rifled slug guns out there today. I know of no-one claiming even 200 yard slugs for deer size game.

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I wonder what the trajectory looks like for the WR magnum explora @ 300yards. My guess it would require a miracel to hit anything beyond 200 yards in unknown terrain .

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Original performance claimed by Westley Richards IMO is highly suspect. I say this b/c with modern game laws, the slug gun is necessary in many regions. If the LT's viable at 2-300 yard it seems someone would be punching out something similar in the correct diameter to run thru the plethora of rifled slug guns out there today. I know of no-one claiming even 200 yard slugs for deer size game.

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I am surprised you have come to that conclusion since you now shoot your gun at 100yds with an aerodynamically inefficient slug. 200yds isn't that hard to believe, at all, over open sites and 1500fps. Handgun silhouette is shot to 200yds over open sites at similar velocities. 300 yds is certainly a challenge for both gun and shooter.
Why create such a projectile and system to launch it if there was no real performance improvement to be gained?
Holland certainly spent a lot of time and effort after 1904 to try and equal the Westley rifled choke systems.

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"Recoil is insignificant when there is a tiger on the head of your elephant" The Maharaja of Cooch Behar

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Original performance claimed by Westley Richards IMO is highly suspect. I say this b/c with modern game laws, the slug gun is necessary in many regions. If the LT's viable at 2-300 yard it seems someone would be punching out something similar in the correct diameter to run thru the plethora of rifled slug guns out there today. I know of no-one claiming even 200 yard slugs for deer size game.

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I wonder what the trajectory looks like for the WR magnum explora @ 300yards. My guess it would require a miracel to hit anything beyond 200 yards in unknown terrain .

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The initial concept of the rifled choke or paradox gun was versatility. Leslie Taylor's capped bullets gave the user the ability/possibility to hit targets beyond 150yds. Taking risky shots and leaving wounded game was not unusual in the times these guns were used. Would a 400/350NE be any easier to use for 300yds open site shots? The difficulty is in judging distance.

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"Recoil is insignificant when there is a tiger on the head of your elephant" The Maharaja of Cooch Behar

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Just finished the Paradox book, Vol 1 and no one in it seriously entertains shots past 125 yards, pref under 100, Holland, Westley et al, best, Mike

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Me too have also finished the book.

As H&H stated the paradox was made for jobs under 100 yards, and were not to compete with their .577Express.

Looking foreward to the last volume .

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The nose-cone of that LT bullet isn't very difficult to manufacture, about the same as a typical sweater or cape button. With the right machine and tooling they can be spit out by the thousands.
They would be quite 'classy' in brass alloy.


Cheers
Tinker

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Tinker,

Evidence suggests the nose-cones were spun. Normally this is done over a mandrel, I think in this case they used an concave recess cut to the outside dimensions of the finished cap? The tool would push the sheet brass disk into this form die in such a way that the cap was conformed to the inside of the die. A rabit was then cut into inside of the base of the cone to thin the brass and create a depth control to recieve the top-hat brass base. Some sort of ejection system would push out the finished cap?

The top-hat brass base was stamped out. This was inserted into the rabit on the cone and the base of the cone was then rolled over (crimped) the top-hat, locking it in place. At this point, or somewhere else along the way the nose-cap was annealed, probabally to a dead-soft condition. The lead cup was then swedged over the top-hat? In disection of original LT capped bullets, it seems there was some sort of spotty bond (cold) between the lead and the brass alloy front.

Original performance claimed by Westley Richards IMO is highly suspect. I say this b/c with modern game laws, the slug gun is necessary in many regions. If the LT's viable at 2-300 yard it seems someone would be punching out something similar in the correct diameter to run thru the plethora of rifled slug guns out there today. I know of no-one claiming even 200 yard slugs for deer size game.

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Cheers
Tinker

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--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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I'd like to see the evidence, and I very much doubt that they were made on a spinning lathe.
There's plenty of room for me to adjust my perspective on this, and I've spent most of my life running metalworking machines and tooling - modern and antique.

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Edited by CommandCar (24/10/10 12:42 PM)

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I'd like to see the evidence, and I very much doubt that they were made on a spinning lathe.
There's plenty of room for me to adjust my perspective on this, and I've spent most of my life running metalworking machines and tooling - modern and antique.

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I would expect an even wall thickness for the entire cone, yet the originals tend to have thinner noses.

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That was intentional so the nose turns in on itself on impact.

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"Recoil is insignificant when there is a tiger on the head of your elephant" The Maharaja of Cooch Behar

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I'd like to see the evidence, and I very much doubt that they were made on a spinning lathe.
There's plenty of room for me to adjust my perspective on this, and I've spent most of my life running metalworking machines and tooling - modern and antique.

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I would expect an even wall thickness for the entire cone, yet the originals tend to have thinner noses.

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That was intentional so the nose turns in on itself on impact.

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Could you please footnote that fact with the source of the information? Thx

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Original performance claimed by Westley Richards IMO is highly suspect. I say this b/c with modern game laws, the slug gun is necessary in many regions. If the LT's viable at 2-300 yard it seems someone would be punching out something similar in the correct diameter to run thru the plethora of rifled slug guns out there today. I know of no-one claiming even 200 yard slugs for deer size game.

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I am surprised you have come to that conclusion since you now shoot your gun at 100yds with an aerodynamically inefficient slug. 200yds isn't that hard to believe, at all, over open sites and 1500fps. Handgun silhouette is shot to 200yds over open sites at similar velocities. 300 yds is certainly a challenge for both gun and shooter.
Why create such a projectile and system to launch it if there was no real performance improvement to be gained?
Holland certainly spent a lot of time and effort after 1904 to try and equal the Westley rifled choke systems.

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Tinker,

Let me restate that. I was told, by THE guy who makes LT copies, that the cone was spun. In looking at sectioned caps, and knowing how a cymbal is made, seems logical to me. The original LT caps to tend to have concentric lines like something was revolving during the manufacturing process. My friend a machinist likes to turn the cones out of bar stock. Just does not seem right to me. If they were lathe turned from bar stock, I would expect an even wall thickness for the entire cone, yet the originals tend to have thinner noses.

PM me with your information and I will send you an original Super Mag Explora round to dissect.

Thanks for the response, am not a machinist, so how exactly would you do it?



Boy you can really hash out things by throwing out a couple of bold statements....
Fun and you learn stuff too.

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I'd like to see the evidence, and I very much doubt that they were made on a spinning lathe.
There's plenty of room for me to adjust my perspective on this, and I've spent most of my life running metalworking machines and tooling - modern and antique.

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Cheers
Tinker

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--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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Gatsby,

I think you are missing my point, if you are saying the LT must be launched from a paradox/explora choked gun, then fine. BUT if you are saying the LT projectile can be launched with a 1:30"ish twist and hit at 300 yards with enough retained velocity and energy to effectively kill game, I'm sorry, but just not with you. Again, here is my reasoning, 1. game laws promote bore slug hunting. 2. we have scopes now, not just with crosshairs, but all kinds of deluxe ballistic calculators and even built in rangefinders. 3. any ammunition mfg. who comes up with a 300 yrd accurate slug gets all the business-period!

Are the manufacturers that dumb? I know they promote stupid products all the time, but are they too stupid to explore something that has been around for 105 years? Maybe, but how much $$ are you willing to wager on that?

There are two things I can think of that would reassure me that the LT's are the real deal.
1. give me some to test.
2. tell me they cost 8-10X more to make than say a brenneke.

Yes my Evans works at 100yrds, but I pull out my scoped Browning BPS with Hastings rifled bbl every year, fire a single Brenneke gold thru the "X" at 100 yrds, and go hunting. In this case, the modern can duplicate (better) the antique...

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Original performance claimed by Westley Richards IMO is highly suspect. I say this b/c with modern game laws, the slug gun is necessary in many regions. If the LT's viable at 2-300 yard it seems someone would be punching out something similar in the correct diameter to run thru the plethora of rifled slug guns out there today. I know of no-one claiming even 200 yard slugs for deer size game.

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I am surprised you have come to that conclusion since you now shoot your gun at 100yds with an aerodynamically inefficient slug. 200yds isn't that hard to believe, at all, over open sites and 1500fps. Handgun silhouette is shot to 200yds over open sites at similar velocities. 300 yds is certainly a challenge for both gun and shooter.
Why create such a projectile and system to launch it if there was no real performance improvement to be gained?
Holland certainly spent a lot of time and effort after 1904 to try and equal the Westley rifled choke systems.

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I believe the Westley ( and other) literature from the time period. Just a couple of years back many thought the velocities advertised for the Super Magnum were inflated. We have found a way to reproduce them. I don't have a bc for the LT capped bullet but running several models on my ballistic program would indicate the energy at 300yds to be between 800 to 1100ftlbs (as much or more than a .44mag at 50yds). What .735 slug weighing 730gr with a pointed tip traveling at 1500fps is made today? The LT capped bullet extended the range of the paradox style gun which seemed to be limited from 100 to 150yds. Westley stated the ultimate limit for their guns and ammunition was 300yds, puffing or fact?
I would just about guarantee the capped bullets to cost many more times than a slug.
As to testing; I do have a small collection of LT bullets and also 2 pristine Westley Super Mags.
If you are willing to reimburse me the cost of the LT's, I'll send some downrange.
If we buy into your comparison between the Evans and the BPS then no one should ever buy a double rifle as a scoped bolt gun will always be more accurate.

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"Recoil is insignificant when there is a tiger on the head of your elephant" The Maharaja of Cooch Behar

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Just my opinion but I think anyone buying a double whether it be a paradox, a Faunetta or whatever with iron sights and taking shots much over 100 yds at stuff with four legs is going to be, a) disappointed and, b)not very sporting.

Just my opinion chaps and worth what you paid for it
best
Mike

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Mike,
If the Fauneta's are realized with the capped ammo maybe you will change your mind. I may be an a--hole but I ve shot at a # things with four legs at ranges over 100yds with my Casull and other handguns. I don't believe that 150 to 200yds is that great a distance with a shoulder mounted weapon like the Fauneta or SME. JMO

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"Recoil is insignificant when there is a tiger on the head of your elephant" The Maharaja of Cooch Behar

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Just my opinion but I think anyone buying a double whether it be a paradox, a Faunetta or whatever with iron sights and taking shots much over 100 yds at stuff with four legs is going to be, a) disappointed and, b)not very sporting.

Just my opinion chaps and worth what you paid for it
best
Mike

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Mike,
If the Fauneta's are realized with the capped ammo maybe you will change your mind. I may be an a--hole but I ve shot at a # things with four legs at ranges over 100yds with my Casull and other handguns. I don't believe that 150 to 200yds is that great a distance with a shoulder mounted weapon like the Fauneta or SME. JMO

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I agree my friend. It is somewhat of a head scratch-er how many can say the gun cant do that or this and have never shot Faunetas let alone owned a Fauneta. I was certainly surprised at what the guns can do, and my good friend Ross who writes for the DGJ is putting together a spread on the gun including his own tests, my results and the makers technical information very soon. I can routinely put groups at 100yds within 4" and that's with Ambhurst ammo firing both barrels. I have shot 5 Faunetas and owned all of them with wonderful results. The LT cap is even more accurate of a round I hear but I haven't shot those, but there coming in the next couple years..

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General,

I have no doubt of the accuracy potential at conventional ranges. I just can't figure out why these 105 year old brass and lead zeplins are not on the market today, in some form or another and being used in modern scoped slug guns.

Having shot your 5 Fauneta's with the Armbrust load, have you tried any shots at 150, 200 or even 300 yards? You must have been tempted with all those sight leaves on the rib... If so, what were the results?

Also, it would be great if the forthcoming Fauneta flier contained some actual targets that support these original claims. If they work, Westley Richards should offer them in .615 so they can be used in conventional slug guns...

Thanks

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General,

I have no doubt of the accuracy potential at conventional ranges. I just can't figure out why these 105 year old brass and lead zeplins are not on the market today, in some form or another and being used in modern scoped slug guns.

Having shot your 5 Fauneta's with the Armbrust load, have you tried any shots at 150, 200 or even 300 yards? You must have been tempted with all those sight leaves on the rib... If so, what were the results?

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I wouldn't expect the wadcutter like bullet used in the Armbrust load to have the same stability of the LT

The Armbrust bullet and an LT 20




Most conventional paradox style bullets are center or front weighted. The LT has most of its weight in the base.

Original paradox 12 and LT and your original Kynoch bullet



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"Recoil is insignificant when there is a tiger on the head of your elephant" The Maharaja of Cooch Behar



Edited by CptCurl (25/10/10 11:16 AM)

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