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NitroXAdministrator
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More heresy - scopes on doubles
      #169207 - 09/10/10 06:23 AM

A bit more heresy from me.

What scopes do you recommend for use on double rifles and why?

My first use will be on my Tikka U/O DR so no big problem there. I have a set of DR barrels in 9.3x74R and .30-06. Plus 12g combination barrels in 12g and .223 and also 7x65R.

For the future what recommendations on something in the range of a .375 or .400 side by side?


Also does anyone like Schmidt & Bender, Swarovski and Zeiss still make neat little fixed power scopes in say 2x or 2 1/2x?

If not those brands, which brands?

Do most guys get a scope with a rail for doubles or ... ?

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GG375
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Re: More heresy - scopes on doubles [Re: NitroX]
      #169211 - 09/10/10 07:37 AM

John

When I bought my Krieghoff 9.3.74mm it came with a S&B 1.5 - 4x with illuminated reticle. To my eye it was too big for that slim little rifle and made it top heavy as well - and added unecessary weight. I ended up replacing it with a Leupold 1.5 - 5x and it is much better now. I really wish the Europeans would offer more smaller 1" tubed scopes instead of all these whopping big 30mm jobs!

Cheers.

GG


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Re: More heresy - scopes on doubles [Re: GG375]
      #169213 - 09/10/10 08:05 AM

Yeah the funny thing is you don't need the 30mm tube to transfer light. Light transfer and brightness depends on the size of the objective lens and quality of coating. The fad for 30mm tubes is just that: a fad.

I have four DR's with scopes:

.375 H&H Flanged Mag. topped with a Schmidt & Bender 1.25 x 4

.375 H&H Mag. topped with a 1.75 x 6 Swarovski

9.3x74R topped with its original 2.5x Zeiss Zielklien and an alternate 1.5 - 5 Leupold

and a .300 Win. Mag. topped with a 1.5 x 5 Pentax.

The scope you choose depends on several factors:

* Caliber and intended use;
* Barrel configuration (e.g. what will actually fit);
* Size of rifle compared to scope (not top heavy);
* Budget;
* Etc.

For example of "what will actually fit" I can point to my Winkler .300 Mag. It came to me topped with a 1.5 x 5 Leupold, but the eye relief just didn't quite suit me. I had the 1.5 x 5 Pentax on hand, and it has a longer tube. I popped it on in place of the Leupold, and it proved to be perfect. The little Leupold is a grand scope but very short.

Long ago when I had a Valmet system like yours I topped my .30-06 barrels with a 4x Weaver, which did fine. My 12 over .222 barrels were topped with a 2 x 7 Redfield in the Valmet QD mount.

So there are lots of issues to consider. High on the list should be ergonomics. Improper eye relief ruins a rifle/scope combination.

Good luck,
Curl

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rigbymauser
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Re: More heresy - scopes on doubles [Re: CptCurl]
      #169217 - 09/10/10 08:28 AM


No heresy John...I would love to have a Heym B88 in 8x75R topped with a classic german scope.
A double for medium longrange work


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tinker
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Re: More heresy - scopes on doubles [Re: rigbymauser]
      #169226 - 09/10/10 02:04 PM

That 30mm scope tube is more about elevation adjustment range than it is about light transmission.
Still, I run a 1" tube vx2 tactical (milDot with 40mm objective) on my m700LTR, with the badger base and my 2600fps 180gr GameKing loads I'm fine to 1K.

On the double rifle you speak of, purist/schmurist.
Start with the mounts and your ideal eye-relief and let that start the selection process. Do you or don't you want an illumated reticle..? From there shop within your budget and you'll likely have a much narrower field of choices.





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Paul
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Re: More heresy - scopes on doubles [Re: tinker]
      #169243 - 09/10/10 08:31 PM

I fancied a small Swarovski variable for my .450/.400 but, when Heym wanted $2500 to put a claw mount on it, I decided it was bad form

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kuduae
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Re: More heresy - scopes on doubles [Re: Paul]
      #169251 - 09/10/10 11:33 PM

I once heard a well-known London gunmaker:
"We don't recommend scopes on double rifles with recoil above .375 H&H Magnum. Acording to Murphy's law every double rifle, no matter how well made, will double one day. If this happens with a scoped .470, you are in real trouble!"

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Re: More heresy - scopes on doubles [Re: kuduae]
      #169254 - 09/10/10 11:46 PM

I have a friend with a scoped .470 who doubled it the first time he pulled the trigger. Luckily the scope is a very long eye relief with its eyepiece set just behind the standing breech. Plenty of eye relief, so no blood.

Curl

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Bonde
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Re: More heresy - scopes on doubles [Re: CptCurl]
      #169279 - 10/10/10 05:58 AM

When it comes to scopes on DR the only one I find that doesn't screw up the looks (and balance) are the small 1.5-5x20 VXIIIs and similar size.
The Varipoint 1,1-4,4x24 30mm from Zeiss are wonderful scopes, but just look wrong on a slender doublerifle, too big and bulky...

I had a Mathelon doublerifledrilling made for me in 2008, and it had a small leupold in a pivot mount. I tried a 3-9x42 Zeiss on it, but that just looked silly.. The small Leupold definitely makes it a nicer looking gun.
I'm now using a Docter sight III on it which I find great! 100-120m shots are no worry, and it is very quick. Scary combination..

I'm planning to get one of Peters C-class DRs in .450/.400 one day soon. It will wear a 1,5-5x20 as well.

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RigbyUser
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Re: More heresy - scopes on doubles [Re: Bonde]
      #169302 - 10/10/10 03:38 PM

Great post guys and some sage advice. I have a1.5x5 Leopold VXIII on my Chapuis and have been toying with the idea of fitting a 1.7x10 Swarovski. Had a look at one in the shop the other day and geez, their bloody big scopes.

I will still buy one and it will go on my custom Mauser 9.3x62, but the little Leopold will stay on the Chapuis 9.3x74.

I think this post convinced me not to go too top heavy on that lovely little double..........

Cheers all


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Re: More heresy - scopes on doubles [Re: RigbyUser]
      #169305 - 10/10/10 06:19 PM



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Maximus
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Re: More heresy - scopes on doubles [Re: Grenadier]
      #209776 - 01/06/12 07:58 PM

Don't forget that 30mm tubes generally have bigger objectives and are therefore brighter at higher magnification.

I have a Leupold VX3 1-5x20 which is actually 4.5 at the upper end of its range and at that magnification will produce an exit pupil of 4.4mm. Using the Leupold at 4x produces a 5mm exit pupil.

I have just ordered a Zeiss Victory HT 1.1-4x24 that is a real 4x and will give a 6mm exit pupil at that magnification. That's quite a big advantage.

I will agree regarding the weight issue as the Zeiss is 200g heavier than the Leupold although the Zeiss does have an illuminated reticle. The same Leupold with an illuminated reticle is only 88g lighter. I think its a price worth paying for superior optics.

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mickey
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Re: More heresy - scopes on doubles [Re: Maximus]
      #209813 - 02/06/12 02:41 AM

You need to keep in mind the possible variation in the regulation with the extra weight of a scope. I have a 9.3 with a 1.75x 5 Zeiss it will not shoot anywhere near the open sights. Nor will it shoot a good group.

My 450/400 has a Leopold 1.75x6 and it shoots exactly the same with the open sights.

I think the difference is the weight proportionate to the weight of the rifle. My 9.3 is only 6.5 pounds without the scope and the scope is heavy. The 400 is 8.5 pounds naked with a light scope.

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Re: More heresy - scopes on doubles [Re: mickey]
      #209816 - 02/06/12 03:06 AM

Mick

Can you sight your 9.3mm scope in to one of the barrels? And will it group well as a "single shot" that way?

I know some guys think this is ridiculous, but to me, having a DR shooting well with the open sights, then having an option of putting on a scope for a longer shot if necessary at least adds that option. Even if the second barrel isn't really feasible with a scope.

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mickey
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Re: More heresy - scopes on doubles [Re: NitroX]
      #209822 - 02/06/12 03:32 AM

Mick

Can you sight your 9.3mm scope in to one of the barrels? And will it group well as a "single shot" that way?

I know some guys think this is ridiculous, but to me, having a DR shooting well with the open sights, then having an option of putting on a scope for a longer shot if necessary at least adds that option. Even if the second barrel isn't really feasible with a scope.


.........................................




Yes and it groups very well with each barrel. The problem is in using the same loading for both. I have worked up a separate 'scope' loading that shoots well, with the right barrel shooting accurately to 250 yards.

It gets complicated but if I align the scope to shoot only the right barrel, with the open sight loads, to point of aim the left is, well out in left field, somewhere.

The 'scope' loads shoot well together but cross with open sights. I usually shoot with the scope and carry 4 rounds open sight loads in my pocket. They are smeared with red marker so I can tell the difference.

The 400 is much easier, although I dearly love my 9.3.

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Re: More heresy - scopes on doubles [Re: NitroX]
      #209823 - 02/06/12 03:36 AM

I am very fussy about scopes for my double rifles: I have little or no objections to my using a nice small scope on any of my O/U rifles, but prefer not to use scopes on my SXS rifles; stick with iron sights on them. However, if hunting conditions dictate a scope is needed, I infrequently use them even on my SXS rifles. But, whatever double rifle I scope, I NEVER use a variable scope; variable scopes are simply not needed; are only a feature to increase sales to non hunters or hunters with little experience. For one thing, variable scopes are too large in physical size, and for another, when you see game, you are not going to have time to be fooling around resetting scope power (the only time variable scopes may be acceptable, is for varmint hunting, in my experience). Most importantly of all, I prefer a single power, low power, scope of only 2 or 3 power, more than suitable for double rifles, and one that is the smallest scope I can find, with smallness being extremely important.

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Mike_Bailey
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Re: More heresy - scopes on doubles [Re: kuduae]
      #209824 - 02/06/12 03:39 AM

Quote:

I once heard a well-known London gunmaker:
"We don't recommend scopes on double rifles with recoil above .375 H&H Magnum. Acording to Murphy's law every double rifle, no matter how well made, will double one day. If this happens with a scoped .470, you are in real trouble!"




I have been told the same but it can still happen with a .375, I tried to take a shot at a good croc in Mozambique with my .375 from a very awkward position, result, missed shot and claret all over my face much to my camermans´ amusement. I still have the scar. Also, exit pupil only has to be 5mm, no adults over about 30 years old can get any bigger so those chaps advertising huge exit pupils are really only for the younger chaps and then max is 7mm


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mickey
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Re: More heresy - scopes on doubles [Re: doubleriflejack]
      #209826 - 02/06/12 03:54 AM

Quote:

........ I NEVER use a variable scope; variable scopes are simply not needed; are only a feature to increase sales to non hunters or hunters with little experience.......




Interesting thought. I might counter with 'somethings are just too complicated for some people'.

A topic for another thread?

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Maximus
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Re: More heresy - scopes on doubles [Re: doubleriflejack]
      #209828 - 02/06/12 04:16 AM

Quote:

variable scopes are simply not needed; are only a feature to increase sales to non hunters or hunters with little experience.



That's a massive generalisation, and I assure you there are plenty of hunters using variable scopes with lots of experience.

Firstly, a 1-4 or similar is actually very useful on this type of gun. 1x for driven game and close-quarters. 4x for long shots. You don't have to fiddle with the scope constantly.

Secondly, it's actually almost impossible now to buy a good quality European low-power compact scope that isn't a variable. In fact I cannot think of a single one.

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Re: More heresy - scopes on doubles [Re: Maximus]
      #209829 - 02/06/12 04:27 AM

The only variable scopes I really liked, were the 1.5 to 4X or 5X Leupolds and Redfields. Anything over 4X was really not needed for big game shooting within the range I limit myself - under 300yards.

For straight big game and grouse shooting with my .458, a steel tubed 2-1/2X Weaver was always a good scope. Light weight, small unobtrusive and all the power needed for shooting any NA big game.

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Re: More heresy - scopes on doubles [Re: DarylS]
      #209836 - 02/06/12 04:52 AM

I like a straight 1x for quick shooting. However limited when longer range shoots are needed. Therefore a 1-4x is a good compromise.

The problem with the 2 1/2 x and 3x theory is next to no one makes them anymore. Leupold and ?????? Please tell otherwise.

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Re: More heresy - scopes on doubles [Re: NitroX]
      #209864 - 02/06/12 12:13 PM

John,
The Leupold Vari-X III, 1.5x-5x, 20mm objective lens, is a fine scope on a double and there are scads of used ones for sale. I have 5 of them, that's how much I like them. However, on my last two doubles I have gone to the Leupold Vari-X III, 1.75x-6x, 36mm objective lens. It is so little larger or heavier, as to be negligable, yet that larger objective lens gathers more light and seems to give me a few minutes of extra shooting light at each end of the day. Again, I see quite a few of them for sale on e-bay.

Best,
Ron Vella.


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Maximus
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Re: More heresy - scopes on doubles [Re: Ron_Vella]
      #209902 - 03/06/12 02:16 AM

The Leupold 1.5x20 VXIII is a good scope, but has variable eye relief depending on magnification and no illuminated reticule, which I think is a huge help in close quarters. Of course they do make an illuminated reticle version, but it is a little heavier.

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Re: More heresy - scopes on doubles [Re: Maximus]
      #209920 - 03/06/12 06:48 AM

variable scopes are simply not needed; are only a feature to increase sales to non hunters or hunters with little experience.


That's a massive generalisation, and I assure you there are plenty of hunters using variable scopes with lots of experience.

I certainly know that there are plenty of hunters using variable scopes with lots of experience, BUT IT DOESN'T MEAN THAT THEY ARE RIGHT. The scope sales people must really love them. However, I am not one to try to tell them to not use them. On the other hand, I know that I have no use for them. My "massive generalization" was learned through massive experience, my friend!


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Maximus
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Re: More heresy - scopes on doubles [Re: doubleriflejack]
      #209923 - 03/06/12 07:05 AM

Like I said before, show me a European manufacturer who makes a low power fixed scope. There isn't any choice. It's variable or nothing. Just because you have "massive experience" it doesn't mean you are right either, my friend.

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Re: More heresy - scopes on doubles [Re: Maximus]
      #209929 - 03/06/12 09:10 AM

I hunted for years and years with a straight 4X on my big game rifles. I even taped my Daughter's 2 1/2 to 10X scope at it' 4X setting, but then, she shoots better than any client I ever witnessed tested on paper.

Elbow rested, 1 1/2" for 10 shots @ 100meters using a solid black (no aiming point) deer silhouette for a target. 8 shots inside 1 1/8". I merely said, kill that deer. Is more power needed?

I see too many people every year, due to having high power variable scopes, using them for glassing, instead of binoculars. Around here, whe you see movement, it might be a hunter walking down a logging road or on a trail you didn't even know was there.

I've personally see a glint, looked at it through my binocs to see someone looking at me through his damn 3-9X variable scope That will make your neck hair stand up! How many times are neophites like this curling a finger on the trigger? He actually thought you were a moose, deer or bear. I am convinced high powered variables promote this 'glassing for game' using the rifle's scope.

If I had my way, scopes during big game season would be limited to 4X or less - 2X would be even better. That at least would limit or eliminate the 'glassing' with their rifle scopes.

That's my opinion of variables. Yes, I have a number of them and use high powers only when load testing. During the hunting season, they are taped off at 3X or 4X.

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paradox_
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Re: More heresy - scopes on doubles [Re: DarylS]
      #209939 - 03/06/12 10:59 AM

Daryl
I could not agree more!!!! bloody variable this, illuminated that, range finders, 30mm tubes...never ever on serious rifles.

Best
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Re: More heresy - scopes on doubles [Re: doubleriflejack]
      #209954 - 03/06/12 04:53 PM

Quote:

variable scopes are simply not needed; are only a feature to increase sales to non hunters or hunters with little experience.


That's a massive generalisation, and I assure you there are plenty of hunters using variable scopes with lots of experience.

I certainly know that there are plenty of hunters using variable scopes with lots of experience, BUT IT DOESN'T MEAN THAT THEY ARE RIGHT. The scope sales people must really love them. However, I am not one to try to tell them to not use them. On the other hand, I know that I have no use for them. My "massive generalization" was learned through massive experience, my friend!




Still waiting for a response on who actually makes these 2 1/2x and 3x fixed scopes.

Other than the Leupold 2 1/2x. The only one to my knowledge.

Instead of the "massive" hyperbole.

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Maximus
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Re: More heresy - scopes on doubles [Re: NitroX]
      #209955 - 03/06/12 05:37 PM

John, certainly the 2.5x Leupold is still made - http://www.leupold.com/hunting-and-shoot...0mm-ultralight/

The problem is it's a 2.5x with long eye relief so the field of view isn't great - 13.2m @ 100m.

The Zeiss 1.1-4x24 at 1.1 gives you 38m @ 100m and can be cranked up to 4x for long shots where it still has 10.5m @ 100m. I think those two facts alone make it, or others with a similar specification, an ideal choice for those who want to put a scope on a double.

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Re: More heresy - scopes on doubles [Re: Maximus]
      #209956 - 03/06/12 05:50 PM

I have a Schmidt and Bender 1.5-4 on the .375, it is nearly always on 2x. Daryl, I can´t believe people would "glass" you with a scope on a rifle!!!!!!!!!?? Is that true ? best



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Maximus
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Re: More heresy - scopes on doubles [Re: Mike_Bailey]
      #209957 - 03/06/12 05:59 PM

Great picture Mike

Did you have the option of mounting the scope lower?

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Re: More heresy - scopes on doubles [Re: Mike_Bailey]
      #209964 - 03/06/12 07:58 PM

Quote:

I have a Schmidt and Bender 1.5-4 on the .375, it is nearly always on 2x. Daryl, I can´t believe people would "glass" you with a scope on a rifle!!!!!!!!!?? Is that true ? best






Great outfit you there Mike.

I've got a number of low powered variables.

A Zeiss 1.1-4x, Zeiss 1.5-6x, Leupold 1-4x, Nightforce 1-4.5x.

Buying a Leupold 2 1/2x currently.


Just interested how all the "experienced" guys are getting all these 2 1/2x and 3x fixed scopes?

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Edited by NitroX (04/06/12 01:16 AM)


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Mike_Bailey
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Re: More heresy - scopes on doubles [Re: NitroX]
      #209967 - 03/06/12 08:26 PM

Maximus, it is the standard H&H QD mount, I don´t know if they can lower it, maybe ? seems fine as it is though, best

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Mike_Bailey
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Re: More heresy - scopes on doubles [Re: Mike_Bailey]
      #209972 - 03/06/12 09:35 PM

I have a couple of Leupold 1,1-4 VXII ´s , one on a rimfire, the other on a Marlin .44, for the money nothing is close and if I am honest these older eyes can´t tell the optical clarity from higher end gear. The only thing I would say if you are shooting a .375 then you need to KNOW it will retain zero. The Zeiss on that Hartman we bought a couple of months ago has proven to be superb, I don´t like the front bell ring but it arrived at my mates two weeks ago so I can get a case made for it, he took it out last week, from off the hood of his pick up it shot a 5 shot group at 110 yds into 3/4", he took off the scope, remounted it and got 3 rounds touching ! Those germans can certainly make claw mounts ! best

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Sville
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Re: More heresy - scopes on doubles [Re: Mike_Bailey]
      #209974 - 03/06/12 10:25 PM

Quote:

I have a Schmidt and Bender 1.5-4 on the .375, it is nearly always on 2x. Daryl, I can´t believe people would "glass" you with a scope on a rifle!!!!!!!!!?? Is that true ? best





Great pic, you look rather satisfied.... I like both my Zeiss in 1,1-4x24 on my DR and 1,5-6x42 on the Blaser, they are perfect and enough for driven hunts. I also have a 2,5-12x50 Swarowski for shooting at long distance, but I never use it as binoculars. For that I have a Zeiss 10x40.


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mickey
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Re: More heresy - scopes on doubles [Re: Mike_Bailey]
      #209986 - 04/06/12 01:19 AM

Mike

I have that exact scope on a .375. I love the scope and the clarity is superb. I would guess that at any power is is brighter than any Leopold ever made.

There is a drawback though. The power adjustment ring is extremely hard to rotate. (making it a fixed power for DRJ) I sent it off to S&B and they wanted US$750 to fix it. Seems like a lot for an expensive scope. Will stick to low power Zeiss instead of buying anymore S&Bs as even my 20 year old Diavaris get fixed for the shipping cost.

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.


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DarylS
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Re: More heresy - scopes on doubles [Re: mickey]
      #209989 - 04/06/12 01:28 AM

Yes - it's true, Mike & has happened more than once.

Usually the deadbeat/miscreants who do this, are the fools/inbred/semi-literates who cannot put a rifle to their shoulder without their finger being curled around the trigger.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Mike_Bailey
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Re: More heresy - scopes on doubles [Re: DarylS]
      #210003 - 04/06/12 03:42 AM

Sville, "I look rather satisfied" !! relieved more like, 10th day of a 10 day hunt, I thought we had lost our chance and if you ask why I have as much dirt on me as the buff thats because after an approx 10km stalk the last 500 metres was on my back, as my friend said when I sent him a photo in England "Well the animal is certainly better looking and appears cleaner than you " best

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ruffcountry
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Re: More heresy - scopes on doubles [Re: Mike_Bailey]
      #210054 - 04/06/12 02:26 PM

Well I cant top Mike's great picture but here is picture of my 9.3 with a new 2-7x32 vortex viper scope . It is very clear and has hold over and windage dots but I dont really like the way the power ring is set up ( although it is easy to change power ) and I think the reticle could be thicker at the edges .



--------------------
Double Rifle Shooters Society


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doubleriflejack
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Re: More heresy - scopes on doubles [Re: Maximus]
      #210109 - 05/06/12 03:43 AM

Maximus---Like I said before, show me a European manufacturer who makes a low power fixed scope. There isn't any choice. It's variable or nothing. Just because you have "massive experience" it doesn't mean you are right either, my friend.
____________________
You are quite correct, in that European manufacturer's don't make a low power fixed scope, leaving no choice for most European's dependent upon those manufacturers. This only proves my point, that most modern manufacturers make and sell only what gives them most profit; that they have worked hard to brainwash the public into the idea that the need is for a variable scope on every rifle, and that the public needs to overlook the truth, the fact that, in most hunting situations, a variable scope is simply not needed, but is mostly for impressing those who don't know better, being massively brainwashed. What I have expressed here, are my OPINIONS about scopes on rifles, that is what was asked; I wouldn't want or expect all others to accept any or all of my opinion. What I have expressed is that my opinion on this matter is RIGHT FOR ME, based on some 40 years of extensive hunting experience with double rifles, my friend. If you prefer variable scopes, happy trails to you, but don't try to tell me that I AM WRONG on my own personal preferences, my friend.


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doubleriflejack
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Re: More heresy - scopes on doubles [Re: DarylS]
      #210111 - 05/06/12 04:21 AM


DaryI S---hunted for years and years with a straight 4X on my big game rifles. I even taped my Daughter's 2 1/2 to 10X scope at it' 4X setting, but then, she shoots better than any client I ever witnessed tested on paper.

Elbow rested, 1 1/2" for 10 shots @ 100meters using a solid black (no aiming point) deer silhouette for a target. 8 shots inside 1 1/8". I merely said, kill that deer. Is more power needed?

I see too many people every year, due to having high power variable scopes, using them for glassing, instead of binoculars. Around here, whe you see movement, it might be a hunter walking down a logging road or on a trail you didn't even know was there.

I've personally see a glint, looked at it through my binocs to see someone looking at me through his damn 3-9X variable scope That will make your neck hair stand up! How many times are neophites like this curling a finger on the trigger? He actually thought you were a moose, deer or bear. I am convinced high powered variables promote this 'glassing for game' using the rifle's scope.

If I had my way, scopes during big game season would be limited to 4X or less - 2X would be even better. That at least would limit or eliminate the 'glassing' with their rifle scopes.

That's my opinion of variables. Yes, I have a number of them and use high powers only when load testing. During the hunting season, they are taped off at 3X or 4X.
Daryl S & Paradox,
I agree 100% with you, elaboration on my view that variable scopes are not needed; are mostly “glitz” and a selling feature, for maximum profit from manufacturers and retailers.

Mike Bailey--I can´t believe people would "glass" you with a scope on a rifle!!!!!!!!!?? Is that true ? best
Yes, Mike, I can assure you that it is true, for I have seen it done numerous times, and when done to me, it gets me rather upset and uncomfortable, though obviously not as upset and uncomfortable as being actually shot at, which has happened to me twice by damn fools who should never be hunting anything.

Two other fringe opinions: 1. By far, I prefer the great old German Claw mounts, probably best mount design ever—the Germans had it right from day one. I have used my milling machine to make rings for the many German claw mounts on double rifles in my collection. German claw mounts allow quick on/off, with never a problem. 2. Most, in not all, original scopes on classic old double rifles, tended to be mounted way too high—that was the common popular style in those days. The more modern trend is to have them mounted lower, a marked improvement, in my opinion. My preference is to mount my double rifle scopes as low as practical, and that is precisely what I have done over the past 30 or 40 years.


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mickey
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Re: More heresy - scopes on doubles [Re: doubleriflejack]
      #210113 - 05/06/12 04:47 AM

I would assume that anyone who would look through a 3x9 at you would also look through a 2x at you. Idiots are idiots no matter what scope they have.

I understand taping a scope to a fixed power for a child. Children, and some adults, are always fiddling with stuff. Fiddlers with scopes are the ones who are held up as an example because they are the ones with the scope on 9x when the animal is 25 feet away. They are not the rule though, rather the exception.

The correlation to this is the fellow who has a fixed 2.5 and has an animal in some bush 250 yards away. Still cannot find a shot. I once shot a wounded Grizzly at close to 300 yards in the brush. If I had not had a scope that would go to 7x I would never have been able to pick out a kill shot. Yes it is, IMO, better to take a shot like that than try a sneak through the willows and tag alders on a wounded bear.

Options, that is what a variable will give you. Just because it says it has 9x does not mean you have to use it. On a Double a lower combo is fine as the rifle is limited in range anyway. Also lighter and less likely to change the poi.

Agree on claw mounts 100%. I also like some of the Euro pivot mounts for retainability.

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.


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MikeRowe
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Re: More heresy - scopes on doubles [Re: mickey]
      #210128 - 05/06/12 12:35 PM

Last year I mounted a steel tube Leupold Alaskan 2.5X scope on a double .303. The client has trouble seeing open sights any more so needed the scope option. I made a set of Davidson detachable rings and bases to keep everything as unobstrusive as possible when the scope is not mounted.

The 7/8" tube of the Alaskan makes a very trim setup. Unfortunately Leupold only made these for a short time, but they can be found.

On the scope power deal, I was always a fan of a fixed 2.5 or 3, but now use a 2-7 Leupold on my do everything go to rifle. It's always set on 2X, but I've had situations as mentioned when I needed to do a precise shot in heavy cover and the extra power is very useful.

I always carry binoculars to spot with, as I find the field of view much more useful. And I don't want to be looking through a scope at other hunters.

I'll have to see if I have a picture of the .303 setup somewhere.

Edited by MikeRowe (05/06/12 01:20 PM)


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: More heresy - scopes on doubles [Re: MikeRowe]
      #210155 - 05/06/12 05:40 PM

These comments aren't confined to doubles.

Years ago you would see a .375 scoped with a 2 1/2x scope. After all that is 99% all that is needed.

Nowadays we make "do" with a 1-5x range variable. A good scope to have on a big bore especially if in QD mounts. The 1x / 1.5x bottom end is good for close range and most of the hunting, with the 4x or 5x top end, good for any long range shot.

BUT it is amazing is a lot of the new chums who put stupid 4-18x or similar scopes on their big bore rifle. On some of the idiot forums on net this is actually quite common. (some guys know where I am referring to. )

How to look instantly like someone with no ffffing idea - put a 4-18x on a big bore rifle (and I don't mean one like a .338 Lapua where it is appropriate).

My .375 bolt action has had a straight 4x on it for an African hunt - because the Leupold 1 1/2-6x failed (ie the reticle was moving under recoil). And I had a different 1 1/2-6x on my 9.3mm double for another hunt.

V express sights on the .450 of course.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: More heresy - scopes on doubles [Re: NitroX]
      #210157 - 05/06/12 05:41 PM

I wonder if we could get one of the German/Austrian scope makers interested in making a 2 1/2x scope model again?

Zeiss
S & B
Swarovski

?

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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Yochanan
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Re: More heresy - scopes on doubles [Re: NitroX]
      #210180 - 05/06/12 11:00 PM

Quote:

I wonder if we could get one of the German/Austrian scope makers interested in making a 2 1/2x scope model again?

Zeiss
S & B
Swarovski

?




I would love to see more scopes of lower magnification with steel tubes suitable for drillings, doubles and boltaction rifles in larger calibre.

Swarovski Nova were made with steel tube and can often found for a very good price used, unfortunately 4x is the smallest magnification.

Cheers

--------------------
© "I have never been able to appreciate 'shock' as applied to killing big game. It seems to me that you cannot kill an elephant weighing six tons by ´shock´unless you advocate the use of a field gun." - W.D.M. Bell: Wanderings of an Elephant Hunter.


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DarylS
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Re: More heresy - scopes on doubles [Re: Yochanan]
      #210184 - 05/06/12 11:59 PM

If running a 1-4X or 1.5 to 5X or any variable for that matter, make sure you the check point of impact at different power settings. I've seen problems with both Leupold and Redfield in the low powered variables.
The Leupold 2X was a favourite of mine of the .458.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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mickey
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Re: More heresy - scopes on doubles [Re: DarylS]
      #210200 - 06/06/12 02:31 AM


I am not a fan of Leopold scopes and the reason you stated is only one reason. I find them not to be very sharp at distance and also hard to focus both the cross hairs and the image simultaneously. They also have a wonderful warranty program. It seems everyone I know has availed themselves of it. I prefer scopes with a good warranty that no one has ever needed to use.

A 300 yard shot at a Caribou, in a herd, requires more than 2x magnification. The same rifle would also be used for a Brown Bear at 25 yards and fixed 4 or 6 would be a way more than imprudent.

Options

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.


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DarylS
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Re: More heresy - scopes on doubles [Re: mickey]
      #210219 - 06/06/12 08:57 AM

Since I find Caribou to be very nearly inedible, just like the lichen they eat, I don't hunt them. For the elk, moose, and deer I do hunt, a 2X has worked very well indeed for me, for 38 years now - without ever a failure of any sort.

As to Leupold, only one had a problem with poi changes, along with one Redfield.

To Leupold's defence, it is the only scope that will take coming in out of a sub freezing weather and get dunked into a bucket of hot water wihtout fogging - saw that with 3 of them- to my utter amazement.

I another camp, just a few years ago, I saw 2 Zeiss scopes on the client's rifles fog in very wet weather that was well above freezing, while my friend's Leupold and both my 3-9 M3200 & my brother's old 2-1/2X Bushnel custom, didn't fog in the slightest - same hunt, same weather.

There are good and bad in all scopes, it seems.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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mickey
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Re: More heresy - scopes on doubles [Re: DarylS]
      #210226 - 06/06/12 10:15 AM

It has only been in the last 20 years or so that Zeiss has used Nitrogen in their scopes. They used to claim that their scopes were sealed so well that they would not leak or fog. Obviously an optimistic statement.

The glass is second to none though

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.


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doubleriflejack
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Re: More heresy - scopes on doubles [Re: mickey]
      #210390 - 08/06/12 04:25 AM

Mickey,It has only been in the last 20 years or so that Zeiss has used Nitrogen in their scopes. They used to claim that their scopes were sealed so well that they would not leak or fog. Obviously an optimistic statement.

For years, I have used best Leitz (Trinovids) and Zeiss earlier binoculars that were only sealed, water resistant; not truly waterproof, but under normal field conditions, they "would not leak or fog" we were told. Well, I have found them to not leak or fog, even in Oregon rain, so have come to the conclusion that true waterproofing so common today is not needed; is only a selling gimmick, unless you were going to use them underwater, such as in skin diving.


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Bill_Cooley
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Re: More heresy - scopes on doubles [Re: mickey]
      #210853 - 14/06/12 12:04 PM

I love the argument about scooping a double. “ It's an abomination that destroys the clean lines of the gun.” That is the exact argument I use to hear when I was a youngster about bolt rifles. You will still find people who will pay extra for a pre 64 Winchester that hasn’t been screwed up by drilling and taping for scope mounts.
I think it would be Stupid (sorry I cant think of a nice way to put it tonight) not to take advantage of every advantage we can. I like the illuminated recital, as it stands out on an animal in low light situations. You can’t hit what you can’t see. You can always take the scope off if you are going into thick stuff where you will be up close and personal.
By the way I think a perfect setup is to have 2 scopes for your double one 13/4-6 for the up close dangerous stuff and something around a 4-12 for plains game or prairie dogs
Bill


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carpediem4570
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Re: More heresy - scopes on doubles [Re: Bill_Cooley]
      #211074 - 18/06/12 03:45 PM

Why not consider a red dot sight. They make them in a one power configuration and some of the red dots come with a screw-in two power magnifier.

I have my double set up with a Leupold 1.5-5 scope on QD rings. I want to get a red dot on a QD so I can swap it out with the scope, if need be. One for close in work and the other for longer ranges.

Seems to be the best of both worlds

Regards,

Carpediem

--------------------
Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well-preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways-Chrdonnay in one hand-Chocolate in the other-body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming "WHOO-HOO, WHAT A RIDE!!"


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ozhunter
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Re: More heresy - scopes on doubles [Re: NitroX]
      #211084 - 18/06/12 05:50 PM

Nitro,
There is an old S&B 1.25-15 scope on used guns that would be great for a 9.3 of 450/400 double.
I just purchased an old S&B 4x36 with German posts which will likely get used on an U/O 9.3.


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209jones
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Re: More heresy - scopes on doubles [Re: ozhunter]
      #211399 - 23/06/12 03:19 PM

While I understand the POV of those who think it doesn't look right to put a scope on a SXS, it doesn't seem out of place to me on an O/U.
I have a Krieghoff Classic in 30R Blaser coming, I had a long question period with myself as to whether it was worth doing or not. It's not a cheap add on like on a bolt gun.
But, being as I will be using mine 98% here in Alberta,and I want to see a little better, I will try a scope on my SXS. I will try the irons first. But I may have to go with a 1-4x24 Swaro which I already have here. Depends somewhat on the situation of my vision with irons, and how that gun tends to shoot. The eyeballs are just not what they were.
It will be set up for scope,it will be coming with 30mm and 1 " rings and Recknagel swing off mounts.
And it is supposed to be set up with the regulation for the scope to 100 yds.
It'l be a pig or a sweetie. Find out in about 3 months or so.


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4seventy
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Re: More heresy - scopes on doubles [Re: NitroX]
      #211412 - 23/06/12 08:26 PM

John,
I will be interested to hear how you like (or dislike) the little 2.5 Leupold when you get it.
I've had one on my 400-350 NE double for about ten years or so. It works very well, and I find the reticle stands out pretty well in low light, even against a dark background as in a black boar pig or similar.
There are times when a variable would be better.
1-4 Leupold or 1.5-5 work pretty well on doubles in a variety of hunting situations IMO.
The 2.5 is lighter and smaller than those however, and maintains a better balance and feel I reckon.


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hoosier
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Re: More heresy - scopes on doubles [Re: 4seventy]
      #211422 - 24/06/12 12:21 AM

For those that get "out of joint" over scopes on side by sides consider this:
I have vision problems and can barely see the rear sight and the front is a faint blurr.
If it were not for a scope I could not shoot at all-what would you do? The choice is obvious
if you wish to continue shooting / hunting. The challenge with mine is hammer clearance- ordered
a set of hammers and reshaped them to suit and works quite well.Best of all I can still shoot!
As far as scopes go I use a scope that has not been mentioned in this discussion, Weaver makes a
1 x 3x 20mm that I use on mine. Leave it on 1x for hunting and 2x or 3x for target. I don't know
about availability outside the U.S. though.Mine holds up quite well and is all the scope I need.
Cheers

--------------------
BigMike


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aromakr
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Re: More heresy - scopes on doubles [Re: 4seventy]
      #211423 - 24/06/12 12:26 AM

Bill:
Im sorry but your argument that it would be "stupid" not to take advantage of all of the bells an whistles (my words) is really no different than a bowhunter that wishes to use a traditional Longbow rather than the new wheeled contraptions. Some folks like the added challange and the less tech. ways! Its different strokes for different folks, doesn't make them stupid.
Bob


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: More heresy - scopes on doubles [Re: 4seventy]
      #211424 - 24/06/12 01:14 AM

Quote:

John,
I will be interested to hear how you like (or dislike) the little 2.5 Leupold when you get it.
I've had one on my 400-350 NE double for about ten years or so. It works very well, and I find the reticle stands out pretty well in low light, even against a dark background as in a black boar pig or similar.
There are times when a variable would be better.
1-4 Leupold or 1.5-5 work pretty well on doubles in a variety of hunting situations IMO.
The 2.5 is lighter and smaller than those however, and maintains a better balance and feel I reckon.




It will be a little while as it is a reticle special order. So not out of Aussie stock.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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