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chapmen
.300 member


Reged: 26/02/10
Posts: 229
Loc: Middle of germany
Max Meffert 9.3x62 Mauser Action
      #168537 - 26/09/10 09:09 PM

My newest one :

http://jagdwaffensammler.de/index.php?id=114

i am looking on any information for MAX ! Meffert BERLIN !, especially if he was familar with Imm. Meffert/Suhl ?
Also i am looking for ads of Max Meffert or cataloges.

--------------------
some fine old guns from germany :
www.jagdwaffensammler.de


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mehulkamdar
.416 member


Reged: 09/01/04
Posts: 3688
Loc: State of Ill-Annoy USA.
Re: Max Meffert 9.3x62 Mauser Action [Re: chapmen]
      #168758 - 30/09/10 07:17 AM

Chapmen,

No response from the experts so far, but let me do the honestly inexpert thing and congratulate you on a lovely old rifle!

Hopefully, someone will soon step in and offer an expert view.

In the meantime, thanks for sharing pictures through your link and good hunting!

--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

Mehul Kamdar


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500grains
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Reged: 16/02/04
Posts: 4732
Loc: Salt Lake City, Utah USA
Re: Max Meffert 9.3x62 Mauser Action [Re: mehulkamdar]
      #168774 - 30/09/10 12:21 PM

Chapmen, that is a great looking rifle! I never heard of old Max, but it looks like he had wonderful skills.

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ellenbr
.300 member


Reged: 25/08/07
Posts: 167
Loc: North Alabama
Re: Max Meffert 9.3x62 Mauser Action [Re: 500grains]
      #168812 - 01/10/10 05:21 AM

I'd like to hear something from the experts also. Chapmen, who performs the excellent disassembly of the longarms as well as the photos. One really couldn't ask for much more. Interesting on the top tube of the Max Meffert that the "SW 48" looks to have begun as "SW 38", which there wasn't a postal zone, or whatever it was. Berlin was divided into 9 of these zones(1862 - http://translate.google.com/translate?hl...47%26prmd%3Divb ) and the address would have been Berlin SW 48 Friedrich Straße 15 and guess who was at that address in 1925??? - http://books.google.com/books?id=l1kPAQA...ved=0CEYQ6AEwBQ
Georg Knaak, Deutsche Waffenfabrik


In 1907 they were on the same street with Max Meffert being at 15 Friedrich Straße and Georg Knaap at 240/241 Friedrich Straße. With Georg Knaap being active at least by the 1890s, I'd say he was funding Max Meffert's venture or grooming Max Meffert to take over the business.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse


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kuduae
.400 member


Reged: 13/01/10
Posts: 1775
Loc: middle of Germany
Re: Max Meffert 9.3x62 Mauser Action [Re: ellenbr]
      #168815 - 01/10/10 06:34 AM

Well, I asked around several German experts on German gunmkers, companies and families. As far as we know, Max Meffert was not closely related to the well-known Suhl gunmaking family. Though he claims to come from Suhl, he is not listed among the gunsmithes trained there. Apparently he was a pure dealer who intended to make money on his name. AFAIK he was in business for a rather short time only during the "roaring 1920s". The catalog number "66" from his ad is pure bogus to make people think of an old-established company.
The rifle is a typical product of the post-WW1 Suhl and Zella-Mehlis guntrade. It is built on a cleaned-up ex-military Gewehr98 action. There were no "surplus" M98 actions prior to 1918. The shotgun-type triggerguard is a typical 1920s modification, as the Gew98 and rspecially the smll-ring Kar98 triggerguards are to small for convenient use of a dst. The double-set trigger with it's own housing and V-spring is the typical set from the time. The stock is of standard shape used by all Suhl/Zella-Mehlis makers around WW1. The scope is apparently a reused pre-WW1 one. In the early 1920s Germany was on very hard times economically. Optics were, if available at all, very expensive. So, as after WW2 too, it was quite common to reuse prewar optics. Most ex-sniper scopes survived this way, mounted on hunting rifles.

--------------------
German foresters: We like sustainability! For merely 300 years by 2013.


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chapmen
.300 member


Reged: 26/02/10
Posts: 229
Loc: Middle of germany
Re: Max Meffert 9.3x62 Mauser Action [Re: kuduae]
      #168853 - 02/10/10 04:55 AM

The photos and everything else on my website i do on myself, the pics are not the best - but i am working on it. Its hard to get good pics without shades , overlight and so on. I am an Toolmaker/Mechanic and not an computer/photo expert, so some times it is real hard for me...

Berlin SW 48 is known as Friedrichstrasse/Kreuzberg.
Same adress as Georg Knaak, Max Meffert took over Knaak, in 1907 he had the adress :

"Deutsche waffenfabrik Georg Knaak Inh. Max Meffert"
( German Weaponfactory Berlin Georg Knaak - Holder of the company : Max Meffert )

In the 1908/9 catalog of Imm.Meffert Suhl was an red notice " I am not related in any way with Max Meffert from Berlin"

I think Max Meffert used his family name to push his shop, poorly it is hard to find out more.

The Mauser system of this rifle have not the usual small inspection ( like z,o,u and so on ) marks of military rifles underneath the system, so i think it was leftover in the white or it is an system that was bought directly by Mauser for use in the civilian market.

Also the triggerguard have the small safety bolt holes , but they where closed by an pin.


--------------------
some fine old guns from germany :
www.jagdwaffensammler.de

Edited by chapmen (02/10/10 06:18 PM)


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ellenbr
.300 member


Reged: 25/08/07
Posts: 167
Loc: North Alabama
Re: Max Meffert 9.3x62 Mauser Action [Re: chapmen]
      #168883 - 03/10/10 01:02 AM

Max Meffert may have been a relative of Paul Meffert. Also in Suhl in the mid 19th Century there was a Georg Meffert who was a master gunsmith. But Immann/Immanuel Meffert founded his business in 1839 and I would guess he was in his mid 20s. He had 2 sons, Friedrich Justin who followed in Immann's gunmaking shoes, & Ernst Richard Meffert who was more of a businessman than gunsmith. Both were partners in the firm Immann Meffert and by the turn of the 20th Century they were at the helm of the company. Typically when a fella is well enought established to hang out his shingle, he takes another plunge in marriage and shortly thereafter begins a family. So I'd guess both of Immann Mefferts sons were born in the 1840s or early 1850s. If Friedrich Justin Meffert was born in the 1840s this would explain why at the start of WWI that Ernst Richard Meffert and Bruno Meffert, son of Friedrich Justin Meffert, are listed as owners. By the end of WWI Bruno is the sole proprietor. Bruno Meffert's son Gerhard joined the firm in 1934. Not much on Max Meffert but he was not from the Immann Meffert line.

Whether you consider yourself somewhat of a photog or not, you make an excellent effort to capture images of the components as well as marks, not to mention the historical documents you lcoate. By the way, the mark of the Pick & Sole in the shield on the E. Schmidt & Habermann I think either to be that of one of the Merkel klan or E. Schmidt & Habermann themselves. It crops up from time to time and it may be that E. Schmidt & Habermann was being sourced or one of the Merkel firms was sourced for the odd longarms on which it appears.

Anyone know if Max Meffert married Georg Knaak's daughter? This acquisition would hold the highest probability for the Knaak - Meffert relationship.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse


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kuduae
.400 member


Reged: 13/01/10
Posts: 1775
Loc: middle of Germany
Re: Max Meffert 9.3x62 Mauser Action [Re: ellenbr]
      #168885 - 03/10/10 01:57 AM

The "pick and sole" (actually a miner's trough) is simply the crest of Suhl city. It was used to make clear the gun was made in the more prestigious Suhl, not in that "inferior" competing gunmaking town Zella-Mehlis nearby. Since 1940 it is part of the proofmarks, denoting proof by the Suhl proofhouse. I don't believe it points to any specific maker! The words "Made in Prussia" found on many Suhl guns exported to the USA served the same purpose, as Zella and Mehlis were not in Prussia, but in Saxe-Coburg-Gotha.

--------------------
German foresters: We like sustainability! For merely 300 years by 2013.


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ellenbr
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Reged: 25/08/07
Posts: 167
Loc: North Alabama
Re: Max Meffert 9.3x62 Mauser Action [Re: kuduae]
      #168887 - 03/10/10 04:49 AM

I do realize that post 1939 it was the mark of the Suhl proofhouse and was required by prooflaw but prior to that on interesting and unique action longarms it was applied in inconspicuous locations where one would find the those of Gebrüder Merkel marks or other makers. It was not along with proofhouse marks and is usually found alone and would be on pre-1939 German longarms.

Here's the E. Schmidt & Habermann example,choose the image of the standing breech on the left side - http://www.jagdwaffensammler.de/index.php?id=13 , and it is also seen on some of Richard Schüler's unique lockup and sideframe reinforcement actions stamped atop with "Charles Daly Superior" and with "Prussian" on the top of the standing breech O/U. On the ESHA, why would it be on the standing breech as well as the left side of the rear lug noting that both components originated in Suhl? That doesn't make sense and it would seem it was for a very finite time a process mark or maker's mark, which just may have been in addition to ESHA for E. Schmidt & Habermann.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse


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ellenbr
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Reged: 25/08/07
Posts: 167
Loc: North Alabama
Re: Max Meffert 9.3x62 Mauser Action [Re: ellenbr]
      #168891 - 03/10/10 08:39 AM

The stamp of the pick and ore tub in the shape of a foot in a shield on the E. Schmidt & Habermann's standing breech & left rear lug holds the same position as the "gM" stamps found on many Merkel examples. Maybe it was somehow associated with Merkel's 1916 reorganization as Suhler Waffenwerk. Also I forgot to mention that a few times on the standing breech one will see the pick and ore tub in the shape of a shoe/foot between the letters "GM". The pick and ore tube shape may be encircledd between the "G" & "M".

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse


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ellenbr
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Reged: 25/08/07
Posts: 167
Loc: North Alabama
Re: Max Meffert 9.3x62 Mauser Action [Re: ellenbr]
      #168894 - 03/10/10 01:44 PM

I couldn't find an image of an O/U Charles Daly by Richard Schüler / August Schüler Herkules(1910) action with the stamp of a pick and ore tub in the shape of a foot but I did find a Mahrholdt Hakenloser Herkules Bockgewehr with the stamp on the underside of the lumpless tubes on page 74 of the Double Gun Journal Winter 1998/Vol. 9 Issue 4. I find it difficult to believe that either Richard Mahrholdt of Innsbruck or August Schüler made the examples but sourced them. And the source will reveal the maker behind the stamp.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse


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kuduae
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Reged: 13/01/10
Posts: 1775
Loc: middle of Germany
Re: Max Meffert 9.3x62 Mauser Action [Re: ellenbr]
      #168905 - 03/10/10 10:16 PM

Well, a very similar stamp was used for centuries as a symbol for the town Suhl. Here is a scan from Gargela & Faktor, "Zeichen auf Handfeuerwaffen".



On the Schmidt & Habermann Drilling it is in the same inconspicuous place, the breechface, as the "Made in Prussia" stamp on fi the Lindner-Daly shotguns. H.A.Lindner is a famous Suhl "gunmaker", but famous only in America as he appears as the "maker" on some of the finest s/s shotguns imported pre-WW1 by Charles Daly. In Germany he is completely unknown, not a single gun bearing his mark has ever surfaced in Germany. Apparently he was merely a "Rucksackbuechsenmacher", as such men were called in Suhl, merely an agent who ordered work from the Suhl craftsmen and carried parts from barrelmaker to actioner to stocker to finisher..and so on in a Rucksack. Of course Lindner was not interested in letting Daly know who actually made the HAL marked guns. So I believe most of those "Suhl" or "Prussia" stamps were not applied by the makers, but by dealers ore other middlemen.

--------------------
German foresters: We like sustainability! For merely 300 years by 2013.

Edited by CptCurl (04/10/10 10:02 PM)


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ellenbr
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Reged: 25/08/07
Posts: 167
Loc: North Alabama
Re: Max Meffert 9.3x62 Mauser Action [Re: kuduae]
      #168924 - 04/10/10 12:13 PM

Axel:
As always thanks for taking the time and going the extra mile to research in an attempt to get to the bottom of things. I can understand how the stamp of SUHL over a pick and ore tub in the shape of a sole within a shield just may be the mark of a wholesaler, or someone similar, and for a time I'd capitulate until the preponderance of evidence tilts the scales overwhelmingly in favour of it being a mark noting payment as well as liability.

Regarding Heinrich August Lindner, who may have played a very small part in post WWI Charles Daly longarms seeing on March 28th, 1918 that the firm Heinrich August Lindner in the stroke of a pen was erased from the registry, he was a custom gunmaker who had an every watchful eye for quality much like Heinrich Scherping of Hannover, O. Geyger of Berlin, W. Foerster of Berlin, Johann Kalezky of Vienna, Frantisek Faukner of Prague, Josef Kirner of Budapest, Gustav Fükert of Weipert, etc. just to name a few. His son Ernst fell in fierce fighting against the Brits at the start of WWI and this ended the Lindner gunmaking line. I believe every example that left his shop passed under the scrunity of his personal quality control. The translated term backpack gunmaker is somewhat demeaning and I think other Suhl makers not involved in the production of his wares to the U.S. of A. were quite envious. H.A. Lindner worked closely with Charles Daly and offered him what the Brits would not. Charles Daly traveled to England to contract with makers to produce a longarm to Daly's specs, which was very pleasing to the sportsmen in the U.S. of A. The Brits pretty much refused and Daly then turned to Suhl, probably at the suggestion of A. Schoverling who was born in Germany. Georg Lindner was found there and an association was formed that would last some 45 years. True H.A. Lindner, son of Georg Lindner, couldn't have produced all those upper rung examples; therefore, he sourced the likes of Emil Eckoldt, Robert Schlegelmilch, Albert Stobbe, Schilling & Triebel, who was probably an uncle, and others. Sauer Charles Daly examples exist with Heinrich A. Lindner's stamp on the flats and I feel confident that in time an upper rung Sauer example with H. A. Lindner's stamp will surface in Germany. There seems to have been a strong relationship between Sauer & H.A. Lindner and pre WWI I wouldn't be surprised if there wasn't a custom area/shop at the Sauer facility where H.A. Lindner himself from time to time was the quality control for Sauer's top shelf offerings. Heinrich August Lindner claimed to have a storefront in a very posh area of Berlin, which was under the helm of a Paul Helbig of Wilhelmstraße 53 as adverts from the period give: Niederlage und Vertretung für Berlin bei Herrn P. Helbig . True his speciality was Daly longarms as per the phrase "Specialität: Daly Guns zum Export für Nord-Amerika" but he did sale longarms to the Germany speaking market as at least 2 and possible 3 H.A. Lindners have surfaced with "Diamant Qualität" on the top rib and those would not have been for the American market, whose stamp would have been Diamond Quality.



If I'm not mistaken one of the 3 had H.A. Lindner's signature on the top rib. Interesting stamps surface from time to time with Saxony on the tubes being one of a couple that have surfaced.



Lindner's mark of crown over crossed pistols.

Post WWI, I believe that Gebrüder Adamy was sourced for the Charles Daly examples.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse


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ellenbr
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Reged: 25/08/07
Posts: 167
Loc: North Alabama
Re: Max Meffert 9.3x62 Mauser Action [Re: ellenbr]
      #168978 - 05/10/10 02:37 AM

Here's an image of a Heinrich Scherping hammer DR(forsale at Westley Richards) with the stamp of "G" pick & ore tub in the shape of a sole "M" on the standing breech:




H. Scherping hammer DR


H. Scherping hammer DR


E. Schmidt & Habermann drilling



Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Edited by CptCurl (05/10/10 09:02 PM)


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