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doubleriflejack
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8x57jr double rifle, bullet weight?--do you own 8x57jr DR?
      #168465 - 26/09/10 04:16 AM

Especially if you own an 8x57jr double rifle (.318" dia. bullet, as opposed to later .323" dia., designated "S" for spitzer bullet of larger dia. at 157 grains for improved ranging trajectory) rimmed mauser, and you found good regulation load, what bullet weight did you find most satisfactory? The early 8x57j and 8x57jr cartridges used a 227 grain bullet, but I think the German makers regulated the doubles, using the rimmed or flanged cartridges of course, for whatever bullet weight they thought most appropriate, from the heavy ones to the lighter ones of around 178 grains. Does anyone know, for a fact, that a particular bullet weight was most commonly used for these double rifles in this caliber?

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kuduae
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Re: 8x57jr double rifle, bullet weight?--do you own 8x57jr DR? [Re: doubleriflejack]
      #168482 - 26/09/10 08:40 AM

From your post I assume you own a pre-WW2 German double rifle? If so, post photos of all the proofmarks under the barrels and the marks on the side of the barrels. If there is an inscription like "12,7g StmG", this is the bullet weight in gramms the rifle was proofed and regulated for.

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Ron_Vella
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Re: 8x57jr double rifle, bullet weight?--do you own 8x57jr DR? [Re: kuduae]
      #168487 - 26/09/10 09:39 AM

The 196 grain bullet is the standard for the calibre.

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tinker
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Re: 8x57jr double rifle, bullet weight?--do you own 8x57jr D [Re: Ron_Vella]
      #168505 - 26/09/10 01:02 PM

Although I don't currently own an 8mm double rifle, I'll note here that I've seen most regulate with the 196gr bullet.
The Woodleigh bullet is fantastic.




Cheers
Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: 8x57jr double rifle, bullet weight?--do you own 8x57jr DR? [Re: doubleriflejack]
      #168551 - 27/09/10 01:27 AM

The bullet weight is stamped on the side of each chamber (except for very early rifles). The mark should be something similar to:

St.M.G. 12.7 gr.

For the 196 grain bullet.

The number is the bullet weight in grams.

Curl

--------------------
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YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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doubleriflejack
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Re: 8x57jr double rifle, bullet weight?--do you own 8x57jr DR? [Re: CptCurl]
      #168567 - 27/09/10 08:22 AM

This rifle was made, and proofed, between 1909 and 1912, so it does not have bullet weight stamping; only military flake powder over St mG, steel jacketed bullet. If it had bullet weight stamping, that occurred later in history, I would not have posed this question here. I don't have a camera of any kind, nor would I have a clue how to post pictures online. I just learned that many rifles in this caliber, with .318 dia. bullet, made up through at least the 1920s, were regulated for 14.7 gram bullet and will not regulate well at all with 196 gr. bullet, or lighter, needing a bullet of 227 grains, about. I had hoped that, with some good advice from those of you with experience using these particular rifles, in this caliber, that I could try regulation with probable regulation bullet weights, but I may have to simply try a variety of weights, trial and error, until I determine regulation weight. Thanks for the help, guys, it is appreciated.

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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: 8x57jr double rifle, bullet weight?--do you own 8x57jr DR? [Re: doubleriflejack]
      #168568 - 27/09/10 08:33 AM

Yeah, you have an early one. Sorry, I wasn't talking down to you.

I had an 8x57JR that was regulated for the heavier bullet. Bullets are available from Huntington's (DKW) and from Hawk. Thought I might have a few of the DKW bullets but just checked. Evidently I deep-sixed them.

An 8mm DR regulated for the heavy bullets is a good thing on the killing end.

Curl

--------------------
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YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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ellenbr
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Re: 8x57jr double rifle, bullet weight?--do you own 8x57jr DR? [Re: CptCurl]
      #168576 - 27/09/10 11:00 AM

What's your Gewehr Blättchenpulver charge?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse


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DUGABOY1
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Re: 8x57jr double rifle, bullet weight?--do you own 8x57jr DR? [Re: CptCurl]
      #168579 - 27/09/10 12:13 PM

Quote:

The bullet weight is stamped on the side of each chamber (except for very early rifles). The mark should be something similar to:

St.M.G. 12.7 gr.

For the 196 grain bullet.

The number is the bullet weight in grams.

Curl




I have a H. Barella 8X57JR side lock hammer cape gun made in Berlin in about 1920 that was regulated with ST MGN 13 GR

I have shot 220 gr soilds in it and they regulate fine to the sights at the distance they are cut for, but the 196 gr RN soft points shoot best in it. Though it is not a double rifle but a Cape gun Hope that helps!

--------------------
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doubleriflejack
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Re: 8x57jr double rifle, bullet weight?--do you own 8x57jr DR? [Re: ellenbr]
      #168616 - 28/09/10 05:20 AM

ellenbr----Raimey,
The GBP powder charge stamped on rifle barrels is 2,579 GBP. Again, that is over, of course, st mG, steel mantel bullet. Regarding all this, additionally, what, if anything, can you tell me about this particular military flake powder they used for proof at the time? Do we now know anything to speak about, regarding its burning properties, pressure characteristics, etc.? Best, Jack


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rigbymauser
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Re: 8x57jr double rifle, bullet weight?--do you own 8x57jr DR? [Re: doubleriflejack]
      #168620 - 28/09/10 06:40 AM

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Edited by rigbymauser (28/09/10 06:52 AM)


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ellenbr
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Re: 8x57jr double rifle, bullet weight?--do you own 8x57jr DR? [Re: rigbymauser]
      #168622 - 28/09/10 08:12 AM

Jack:
1st I need you to verify with a glass that the 2,579 GBP is actually 2,67 g GBP and this will give us a basis from which to begin. Also how confident are you in the 1909 - 1912 date? What is the actual diameter stamp: plug gauge or mm. Or is it plug gauge over cartridge length? Since July the 23rd of 1893, 2,67 grams of the semi-smokeless Gewehr Blättchen Pulver was used behind a steel jacketed solid projectile and sources give that the pressure was 58.8k psi. After September 1st, 1911 tubes destined for solid projectiles a 2,75 grams of powder from the Köln Rottweiler Pulverfabrik, which was also used in the Infantry Model 88, behind a solid jacketed projectile of 14,7 grams produced a pressure of 56.89k psi. But in the early 1890s the Patronen 88 was loaded with a 2,75 grams of Gewehr Blättchen Pulver 88 behind a solid steel jacketed(tombak or cupro-nickel plated)/lead core projectile of diameter 8.10mm with weight of 14,7 grams achieving a velocity of 630 m/s. About the same time, if not the at the exact time of July 23rd, 1893, the Gewehr Blättchen Pulver charge was reduced to 2,67 grams and the velocity fell to 615 m/s. If I'm not mistaken both utilized the Zdh. 88 primer. Now I'm making the assumption that Gewehr Blättchen Pulver is the same as the Blättchen Pulver Type 426 with both being used in the Patronen 88 and in the cartridges at the proofhouses. So with that, between late 1902 and mid year of 1903 the Gewehr Blättchen Pulver Type 426 was replaced by the Spandauer Pulver 682b(maybe in March of 1903) with a load of 3,2 grams behind a solid projectile diameter of 8,22mm weighing 9,8 grams and reaching a velocity of 870 m/s. Souces give the Patronen 88 reached a pressure of 3.350k atmospheres while the Spandauer Pulver 682b version only developed a chamber pressure of 3.100k atmospheres. The Spandauer Pulver 682b flakes were smaller and thinner with the sides being 1.35+/- 0.15mm and a depth of .30+/- 0.05mm while the Gewehr Blättchen Pulver Type 426 had flakes with sides of 1.7+/- 0.1mm and a depth of 0.375+/- 0.025mm. The Spandauer Pulver 682b was quicker burning as well as more consumed yielding less fouling. Now I realize I'm mixing rimmed and rimless, but with all this typed, I can't say we are any closer to answering your question but I don't think it would be for the 11,5 gram bullet but more like the 12,7 / 12,8 grams. I'd fall back on trial & error and see what the bullet spread is. Pre-1912 I wonder if the proofhouse load and regulation load were always the same? I"ll see if I can find additional info.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse


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doubleriflejack
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Re: 8x57jr double rifle, bullet weight?--do you own 8x57jr DR? [Re: ellenbr]
      #168680 - 29/09/10 05:21 AM

Raimey,
Several times, now, prior to posting my question on this site, I looked at the stampings on this rifle, and, frankly, am still somewhat unsure about the proof load powder charge stamping, because, believe it or not, the second digit, on both barrels, is not clear at all. It looks as if the stamp slipped as it was stamped, or the original digit was stamped over again. So, again, it looks to me to be 2,579, but, person who looked at it with me at the same time, took it to be 2,479. To me, it looks to be a 5, much more than it looks to be a 6, but I wouldn't rule out that it could possibly be a 6 too! The bore is much clearer, and easy to see, as 172/28. For certain, the rifle is chambered for the 8x57IR (Americanized, interpreted as 8x57JR), for .318 dia. bullet, as I measured it. The proof stamping changed after 1912, so I am certain that the rifle was made during or prior to 1912, and patents as used on rifle were applied for in 1906, but not granted until 1909, so I thought that a window of when it was made was likely 1909--1912; for sure not prior to 1906, as patents had not been applied for yet. Thank you so much for the additional information; how interesting! I will print that, and keep it with my reference data for German cartridges/German double rifles. Best, Jack


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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: 8x57jr double rifle, bullet weight?--do you own 8x57jr DR? [Re: doubleriflejack]
      #168682 - 29/09/10 06:37 AM

Raimey, and others:

Quote:

Pre-1912 I wonder if the proofhouse load and regulation load were always the same?




I can't answer as to German practice, but I certainly can point to a 1937 British example, a .303 double rifle, for which the proof load was the standard Mk VII round (cordite 37 gr. - 174 gr. bullet)




BUT the regulation load was for the old 215 grain bullet (Mk III) round, more popular for sporting purposes. Same rifle, same barrels shown below:



The whole array of photos can be seen at this link.

Interesting!

Curl

--------------------
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YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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doubleriflejack
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Re: 8x57jr double rifle, bullet weight?--do you own 8x57jr DR? [Re: CptCurl]
      #168742 - 30/09/10 03:48 AM

Proofhouse load and regultion load the same? I have never heard of such a thing, and can't imagine its being done anywhere in the world in any proofhouse. After all, the purpose of proof, is to determine if gun/rifle will withstand breech pressure substantially above service (regulation) load, the load intended to be used normally. If it does pass that test, it is assumed to be safe for firing the service load. Now, if one were to think that proof load is to be same as service load, that means that with every normal daily firing, a high pressure proof load is safe to be fired, nonsense. Just because a lighter weight bullet may be used for proof, than proposed service load, means nothing; what mean something, is what breech pressure the proof load subjected the action/barrels to, regardless of bullet weight, compared to proposed service load breech pressure, regardless of bullet weight.

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kuduae
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Re: 8x57jr double rifle, bullet weight?--do you own 8x57jr DR? [Re: doubleriflejack]
      #168746 - 30/09/10 05:38 AM

The load given on the rifle is the service or regulation load. The load fired at the proofhouse gave about 25 - 30% more pressure to achieve a margin of safety when using the prescribed factory load. Up to 1940 a German gunmaker could tell the proofhouse for which factory load a gun was to be proofed. The 1940 proof law ordered all guns to be proofed for the highest pressure factory load then available for the caliber. At the same time these pressures were set up as maximum for any ammunition made for a given cartridge.

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ellenbr
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Re: 8x57jr double rifle, bullet weight?--do you own 8x57jr DR? [Re: ellenbr]
      #168765 - 30/09/10 09:45 AM

Quote:

Pre-1912 I wonder if the proofhouse load and regulation load were always the same?




Allow me to nip this in the bud and type what I meant to type. I wonder if the proof load is based on the regulation load and some integer multiple thereof? And Axel has already provided the answer.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse


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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: 8x57jr double rifle, bullet weight?--do you own 8x57jr DR? [Re: ellenbr]
      #168766 - 30/09/10 09:58 AM

I understood what you meant, even if I misused the terminology also.

I think my illustration is exactly what you meant, wasn't it? Obviously when the Birmingham Proof House proofed my .303 it didn't just plop two Mk VII rounds in the chambers and pull the triggers. The proof load was something more robust. Yet the proof marks are indicative of the Mk VII round.

Curl

--------------------
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YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



Edited by CptCurl (30/09/10 10:01 AM)


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tinker
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Re: 8x57jr double rifle, bullet weight?--do you own 8x57jr DR? [Re: CptCurl]
      #168768 - 30/09/10 10:18 AM

Yes Curl-

Proof load based on use of the Mk VII round.


By the way, that WS is MINE.
Don't stray far from that distinction, and thanks a bunch for taking care of it for me until I can afford to steal it from your vault.
Really.





Cheers
Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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ellenbr
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Re: 8x57jr double rifle, bullet weight?--do you own 8x57jr DR? [Re: tinker]
      #168775 - 30/09/10 12:28 PM

Curl, without a doubt that was what I meant as we were in the same book, on the same page as well as the same verse. I guess it was assumed, with you and I making the same assumption. After reading Jack's post I just wanted to claify seeing I possibly had confused some folks.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse


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doubleriflejack
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Re: 8x57jr double rifle, bullet weight?--do you own 8x57jr DR? [Re: ellenbr]
      #168808 - 01/10/10 04:30 AM

Raimey and Curl,
I cleaned up the proof stampings, with brass wire brush and solvent, and now am certain that the second digit in question is, indeed, a 6; not the 4 or 5 previously thought. So, what I have for sure is 2,67 GBP. Sorry that I couldn't see it well enough earlier, and sorry, too, that I may have mistaken your meaning Raimey, but it is now cleared up. Thanks to everyone who contributed information in an attempt to help answer my qustion, it is appreciated.


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