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Hunting >> Hunting in Australia, NZ & the South Pacific
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NitroXAdministrator
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Bad Blood in the NZ Mountains
      #166507 - 20/08/10 04:04 AM

Bad Blood in the NZ Mountains

Two video debate films on the heli "hunting" of tahr in the South Island mountains.

What do you think?

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Bad Blood in the NZ Mountains - incl Mark Sullivan [Re: NitroX]
      #166508 - 20/08/10 04:16 AM

BTW shows Mark Sullivan hunting Tahr in the Kiwi mountains ..

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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eagle27
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Re: Bad Blood in the NZ Mountains - incl Mark Sullivan [Re: NitroX]
      #166534 - 20/08/10 04:29 PM

Never nice to look at but I guess to some it is acceptable hunting. Mindful that I have also seen video of Australian buffalo being herded by choppers and culled by paying sport shooters. Not long after I was in the NT hunting buffalo in the late 70's the choppers were brought in to cull the buff herds just as they have been used in NZ since the 60's to cull all our species of deer, chamois and tahr.

Of course the culls are usually carried out by professional shooters and in New Zealand's case the meat flown out and exported. These same choppers though have always been used to provide access to shooting areas for sport shooters, some who partake of shooting from the chopper, or using it to spot and herd game to their rifles.

The same old argument as to just what is classed as sport hunting or shooting. Comparable in many cases to 'farmed' and 'fenced' animals shot from or close to a vehicle in Africa but this gets overlooked in the romance of the modern African safari.

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Ben
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Re: Bad Blood in the NZ Mountains - incl Mark Sullivan [Re: eagle27]
      #166537 - 20/08/10 05:49 PM

I immensely dislike helicopter hunting / shooting / culling. In our own country, I believe that the government could ask for the assistance of recreational sporting shooters to manage camels and other problem species, and we'd get the job done. Many of us would be happy to pay fees and licences, too, for the privilege.

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Cinghiale
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Re: Bad Blood in the NZ Mountains - incl Mark Sullivan [Re: Ben]
      #166538 - 20/08/10 05:55 PM

I reckon you have just about nailed it Eagle, Helihunting is shooting and in such beautiful country as you have in the Alps its abhorent. Foot hunting only in there to fully appreciate the place and its grandeur.

IF you are too unfit to hunt Tahr then you are too unfit and should not dishonour the animal by using such unfair means as a Chopper. get fit and hunt it right and earn yourself a Tahr.

Regards,

MOG

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Homer
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Re: Bad Blood in the NZ Mountains - incl Mark Sullivan [Re: Cinghiale]
      #166539 - 20/08/10 06:27 PM

G'Day Fella's,

Ditto to all the above responses!!!

HooRoo
from
Hommer

--------------------
"Beware the Lolly Pop of Mediocrity,
Lick it Once and You Will Suck Forever"

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Rule303
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Re: Bad Blood in the NZ Mountains - incl Mark Sullivan [Re: Cinghiale]
      #166724 - 24/08/10 10:11 AM

I do not object to using a chopper to get you into the area and pick you up but it needs to be a drop come back tomorrow arrangement, not a herding one.

Same as Hommer, "ditto to all the above

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Cinghiale
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Re: Bad Blood in the NZ Mountains - incl Mark Sullivan [Re: Rule303]
      #166735 - 24/08/10 12:11 PM

100% agree Rule,

Choppers are great to save a few days or a week getting into places, not as a tool to help fattimus bone collector to notch up another head and be back at the chalet for double fried dim sims and twelve beers!

Keep the mountians beautiful without too much buzzing around, one of the benefits of having only a few operators in the area to drop foot hunters is they are congnicent and corteous (generally) to other hunters in the areas trying not to spook game.

Regards,

MOG

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Grenadier
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Re: Bad Blood in the NZ Mountains - incl Mark Sullivan [Re: Cinghiale]
      #166737 - 24/08/10 01:23 PM

In Alaska you are not allowed to hunt on a day you fly. So there you get dropped off, begin hunting the next day, and get picked up the day after your last hunting day. That makes it a minimum of three days for a one day hunt, four days for a two day hunt, etc.

I think that is a reasonable requirement.

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Well_Well_Well
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Re: Bad Blood in the NZ Mountains - incl Mark Sullivan [Re: Ben]
      #166742 - 24/08/10 03:27 PM

Both aerial culling and recreational hunting have their place.

When animal density becomes sufficient over an area as widespread as inland Australia, then a helicopter cull is wholly justified. Helicopters are phenominally expensive to operate, the type shown in the video is worth $1300-$1500 per hour as a basic rate.

When populations are more limited, or the terrain is unsuitable for helicopter use, recreational hunting are more suitable. What terrain is unsuitable? Not very much. Semi urban areas are a major no-no. Heavily forested country is more hazardous to work in and a lot of high & mid level cover makes it difficult to identify & cleanly kill the target. Basically there's much more country that can be culled effectively from the air, than not.

Basically helicopter culling stops when whoever's paying for it decides that their cost/benefit equation is going the wrong way.


Back on topic, once you accept taking a ride into a hunting area rather than walking in, the jump to spotting from the air and being dropped off for a shot is a short one. The Alaska rule seems like a sensible solution and may well become a broader recommendation in the ethics of hunting. Personally, even when driving, I try to arrive in time to make camp and sleep, but perhaps I'm just a wuss.....

Edited by ExcessExpress (24/08/10 03:28 PM)

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Cinghiale
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Re: Bad Blood in the NZ Mountains - incl Mark Sullivan [Re: Well_Well_Well]
      #166747 - 24/08/10 05:38 PM

ExcessExpress Quote:
Back on topic, once you accept taking a ride into a hunting area rather than walking in, the jump to spotting from the air and being dropped off for a shot is a short one. The Alaska rule seems like a sensible solution and may well become a broader recommendation in the ethics of hunting. Personally, even when driving, I try to arrive in time to make camp and sleep, but perhaps I'm just a wuss.....


Umm mate, I don't think you are correct at all, have you been Tahr hunting? If you have seen Westland you would know that to get to some of the Tahr locations its at times a week's walk into say Zora block in the Landsborough. There is no slippery slope when using a drop off helicopter, to get to a location, and you will see heaps of animals on the way in, none of which I would have EVER thought to shoot from the helicopter nor herd like the fat Heli-hunters.

Getting onta a chopper and having it dump you and your gear in the wilderness and buzzing off not to be seen for days is wilderness hunting as you still have to find the animals, walk to get them and recover them back to your base camp. This does not include sometimes having to wait out storms and gather all your own water. The other thing to remember is this, on the west coast periods of really good weather do not last long at all and you need to make the most of it when you can, using the Alaskan strategy may not work in NZ due to the weather difficulties.

Heli hunting IS NOT hunting at all, it revolves around fat pricks with too much money, no morals or ethics and no respect for the animals ethical hunting can still involve a helicopter, it is used like you use your 4x4 to get to where you hunt, from there its Shanks Poney all the way.

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Well_Well_Well
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Re: Bad Blood in the NZ Mountains - incl Mark Sullivan [Re: Cinghiale]
      #166788 - 25/08/10 10:48 AM

Y'know I've reflected on that comment and I'll agree it's a bit of a long bow. I've not been to Thar country but have hiked into sambar country before.


That said, what I'm getting at is that once these things are available, it doesn't take much of a devious mind to put the two together, especially in a place where helicopter culling is a widespread activity. As humans we have those who are prepared to put in the effort to do it properly, and those who are prepared to take any short cut they can.


As shown in the video it's not my cup of tea, but I'll take the ride in - so long as the machine has duals.....

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Grenadier
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Re: Bad Blood in the NZ Mountains - incl Mark Sullivan [Re: Cinghiale]
      #166797 - 25/08/10 03:34 PM

Quote:

The other thing to remember is this, on the west coast periods of really good weather do not last long at all and you need to make the most of it when you can, using the Alaskan strategy may not work in NZ due to the weather difficulties.



Alaska is not known for fair weather. In fact quite the opposite is true. When you get dropped off in Alaska you need to be prepared to change itineraries as required, even if it means waiting an extra day or two for pickup. The system seems to work there and I don't see why it couldn't work in NZ.

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Cinghiale
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Re: Bad Blood in the NZ Mountains - incl Mark Sullivan [Re: Grenadier]
      #166818 - 25/08/10 10:45 PM

G'day Grenadier,
not wnating to get into a my dog is blacker than your dog contest but, hopefully this adds more context to your understanding of the West coast of the South Island. I acknowledge that Alaska ain't that great BUT the West Coast of NZ is the 2ND WETTEST PLACE IN THE WORLD. We are talking three days of good weather for 4 to 5 bad ones and MASSIVE rainfall. Only areas of the Amazon rain forest are wetter, and no where near as cold!

Secondly if for example you fly with James Scott from his hanger S of Fox glacier you could be in the tops in literally fifteen minutes. If you started out at 8am thats a whole day you miss and when you have very small windows of opportunity its pretty important to get it right. The west coast also has massivve sea mists that roll in periodically so even on good days you can be fogged out. The way ground hunters work now is working, sometimes you may need to change spots during your time in the valleys so a minimum time prior to a flight may not work either. Minimum period before returning may work but the real problem is stopping people Heli-hunting altogether.

How we do this I'm not sure. I acknowledge that some people will do anything for an X inch trophy, for them there are Tahr behind wire, as sad as that is. We must combat heli-hunting as Tahr are to mountain hunters in the South what Stone Sheep and Mountain Goats are to you guys in North America, a sacred and hard won trophy. Can you imagine someone Heli-hunting a Stone Sheep, they'd be locked up wouldn't they?

We won the canned lion argument in SA as a group of ethical hunters we can win this too. Hell I don't even live in NZ but I love Tahr and the environment they live in more than I love Buffalo and Arhnemland.

Sorry if this sounds like a rant but I plan to hunt the West coast every year if I can for the rest of my life its that good, come and find out it will blow your mind.

Regards,

MOG,
heavily infatuated with the South Island of New Zealand

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Cinghiale
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Re: Bad Blood in the NZ Mountains - incl Mark Sullivan [Re: Cinghiale]
      #166819 - 25/08/10 10:50 PM

ExcessExpress,

James' bird does not have duals, I don't know about other operators. He is the best pilot I have EVER flown with and that includes some pretty bloody good US CWO's and AS Army Majors too. If you love Sambar country I reckon you would love Tahr and chammy country too. Its four hours away from Melb to CCHurch go for it!

Mog

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Homer
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Re: Bad Blood in the NZ Mountains - incl Mark Sullivan [Re: Cinghiale]
      #166849 - 26/08/10 06:32 PM

G'Day Fella's,

ExcessExpress, most NZ chopper operators use single engine machines (Robinson 22 & 44, Hughes/Shwizer300 (both Piston engined), Hughes 500 type, Squirrel 350B (I think?).
The closest you are going to get, is a dual engined Squirrel and that just isn't competitive in the NZ market! Unless of coarse, you are the Government/Military etc!

As to "Heli-Hunting", you need to remember that one of the really Great Traits of the NZ Government in general, is that they actually support and encourage entrepreneurial behavior from there citizens! Yes that's right, the NZ Govt actually trusts it's own people!!!
Unlike Australia and to many other wealthy western countries around the world, that actively stifle this activity with copious amounts of Red Tape and other BS!!!

So given this, I really find it hard to believe the NZ Govt, will put a stop to this appalling activity! The only way I can see to discourage Heli-Hunting, is to find out who has participated in it and let it be known to those in there hunting groups etc? What do you think?

HooRoo
From
Hommer


--------------------
"Beware the Lolly Pop of Mediocrity,
Lick it Once and You Will Suck Forever"

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eagle27
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Re: Bad Blood in the NZ Mountains - incl Mark Sullivan [Re: Homer]
      #166854 - 26/08/10 08:56 PM

Gee Hommer don't get too carried away. We Kiwis view Aussie as the land of opportunity. Different perspective I suppose when we live in the different countries.

Anyway I liked Mogs post and he nailed it concerning weather. You just have to take every opportunity when it comes to getting in and out of those alps when after chamois and tahr. If it was roaded it would be by 4WD but other than shanks pony, the chopper is the only way to go and of course you get to appreciate the rugged beauty of the area on the way in (if the weather is kind on the day).

I thought ExcessExpress was referring to dual controls on a chopper rather than dual power plants.
The 500s operated by James are very stable machines and maintained to a high standard so I never had a problem flying with him.

I just don't know how you can eliminate helihunting other than pressure from hunting groups and organisations promoting trophies and records, without introducing the sort of red tape you feel strongly about in Aussie. Soon as you tighten up regulations to stop the cowboys it always seems to impact more on the ethical hunter. Keep the regs loose and to a minimum and let the good hunters do their thing and hope the lazy blowhards are recognised for what they are and are shunned by the hunters and organisations that believe in ethical behaviour.

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Homer
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Re: Bad Blood in the NZ Mountains - incl Mark Sullivan [Re: eagle27]
      #166904 - 27/08/10 07:29 PM

G'Day Fella's,

Eagle27 an example of what I mean is, with regards to Firearm Suppressors/Silencers;
I spend more time doing all of the things required of me by law, than it actually takes me to manufacture one of my .22LR suppressor/silencer!

The really good thing is that I'm still allowed to make and sell them!!!
But compared to the same situation in NZ...........

Also,You may be right. I just assumed ExcessExpress was referring to Dual Jet Engines, not Dual Controls?

HooRoo
From
Hommer

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Empire375
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Re: Bad Blood in the NZ Mountains - incl Mark Sullivan [Re: Homer]
      #166905 - 27/08/10 07:35 PM

How can you sell 22 lr suppressors in Oz ?
I expected we would be deported or shot if we had these ?
Am I missing something ?

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Homer
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Re: Bad Blood in the NZ Mountains - incl Mark Sullivan [Re: Empire375]
      #166906 - 27/08/10 07:42 PM

G'Day Empire375,

Yes, I can sell a firearm suppressor/silencer to anyone in Oz, as long as you can convince the Police Commissioner in your State, to issue you a permit (a Police Commissioners Permit, to "Possess and Use" a suppressor/silencer)!

Thats relates to Rimfire and Centerfire suppressors and I make both.


HooRoo
From
Hommer

--------------------
"Beware the Lolly Pop of Mediocrity,
Lick it Once and You Will Suck Forever"

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lapua
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Re: Bad Blood in the NZ Mountains - incl Mark Sullivan [Re: Homer]
      #169289 - 10/10/10 09:43 AM

my 2 cents worth is way to many shooters are fat and over weight even down at the club range beach whales every where.
Not a good look

--------------------
Cheers

lapua

ADF VETERAN ARMY

Lest We Forget

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kamilaroi
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Re: Bad Blood in the NZ Mountains - incl Mark Sullivan [Re: lapua]
      #169294 - 10/10/10 11:44 AM

I'm with Lapua on this. Many ranges appear to encourage cammed up lookee me blubberguts. Not good for PR with joe public.

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Bad Blood in the NZ Mountains - incl Mark Sullivan [Re: eagle27]
      #169299 - 10/10/10 02:32 PM

Quote:

I just don't know how you can eliminate helihunting other than pressure from hunting groups and organisations promoting trophies and records, without introducing the sort of red tape you feel strongly about in Aussie. Soon as you tighten up regulations to stop the cowboys it always seems to impact more on the ethical hunter. Keep the regs loose and to a minimum and let the good hunters do their thing and hope the lazy blowhards are recognised for what they are and are shunned by the hunters and organisations that believe in ethical behaviour.



Firstly ban the registration of "hunting trophies" in major hunting record books, like the SCI etc.

Secondly, ban shooting from a chopper.

Thirdly , ban using a chopper to herd animals for hunting.

If a pilot looses his licence if convicted, a big incentive not to do it.

Doesn't sound hard to me.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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NitroXAdministrator
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Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 39248
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Re: Bad Blood in the NZ Mountains - incl Mark Sullivan [Re: lapua]
      #169300 - 10/10/10 02:35 PM

Quote:

my 2 cents worth is way to many shooters are fat and over weight even down at the club range beach whales every where.
Not a good look



Back in '93 when hunting in NZ I was told every animal pictured on a magazine cover was taken by chopper. An Aussie mag with the Pres of the club and other cttee members. None of then were fatguts.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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