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Drew_Jaeger
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Loc: Southern Tablelands, NSW, Aust...
Dangerous Big Game Projectile Performance – NT experience
      #166371 - 17/08/10 09:06 PM

Last week I was up in the Northern Territory outback partaking in a game management hunt. I was fortunate enough to witness the performance of four types of projectiles, using two of them in a number of scenarios. Thought I would share the experiences;


400gr Woodleigh RNSN (.410” & .416”)

The 400gr RNSN performed as expected in the 450/400 Nitro Express 3” and 416 Rigby, expanding creating a massive wound channel through flesh and bone while retaining 95+%. This projectile was good on Buffalo for side shoulder, front on and head shots. The four projectiles recovered were either in the opposite shoulder, spine or head. The only failing was quartering away shots where the projectile was pulled up by the rumen preventing it from reaching the vitals. These were absolutely devastating on Donkeys and Brumbies at any angle.


Shot in the spine & head


Recovered from the spine


This cow took a number of solid hits in the kill zone to bring down


An emphatic result - Entry


An emphatic result - Exit


400gr Barnes TSX (.416”)

The 400gr TSX from the 416 Rigby was very impressive, expanding to the familiar X-shape slicing through flesh and bone. This projectile performed well on Buffalo at most angles penetrating to the vital organs while retaining 99+%. The two projectiles recovered were under the hide on the opposite side of impact. These seem to be an ideal all-round performer in the 416 Rigby.


This cow took a couple of TSXs and Hydro to bring down


Found in the opposite shoulder


Cutting out the lump






Again under the hide on the opposite side, back from the shoulder


400gr Woodleigh FMJ (.410” & .416”)

Not many 400gr FMJs were used. The guys I was hunting with used a small number of FMJs for quartering away follow up shots and the occasional coup de grâce. Projectiles whistled through a few Buffalo broadsides and a Brumby, none where recovered.


400gr Woodleigh Hydrostatically Stabilised Solid (.410”)

This projectile will stop a Tiger tank! The performance difference of the 400gr Hydro compared to the 400gr FMJ from the 450/400 Nitro Express 3” on broadsides was very noticeable. The shockwave created by the Hydro’s nose cup had a dynamic effect, putting Buffalo down each time regardless of size. The other distinguishing performance was supreme penetration on Buffalo at any angle.

The 400gr Hydros exited all but one animal, a bull with 100% weight retention. One of the Cows harvested was first hit in the rear left quarters which exited out the front of the brisket, dropping her. She then got up and faced me only to receive a second Hydro in the head which exited then re-entered the back punching through the scapula travelling along the spine exiting just left of her freckle. Now that is penetration!


In, out, in, out!


Straight path and supreme penetration

The Bull below was hit three times in the left side by a 400gr Woodleigh RNSN, 400gr Barnes TSX and 400gr Woodleigh FMJ from a 416 Rigby,... AND was still going! I provided assistance, as the hunter was reloading his magazine, by placing a single 400gr Hydro strategically in the bull’s derrière. The shot put the bull down, with a final coup de grâce shot from the 416 Rigby finishing the bull. The 400gr Hydro travelled the full length of the bull pulling up under the hide in the lower neck. As you can see it came out like a pimple.


The strategic shot


Note the elongated lump in the lower neck










Hydro pimple


This recovered Hydro could be loaded again!

The fellow hunting with the 416 Rigby was so impressed by the performance of the Woodleigh Hydrostatically Stabilised Solid, he is now contemplating loading them in his 450 Rigby for his Elephant hunt next year. He stated that based on what he had witnessed; the Hydro will easily penetrate that 3’ of honeycomb bone in an elephant’s skull.


In Summary


Left to Right

400gr Woodleigh RNSN .410” = Buffalo Bull shoulder
400gr Woodleigh RNSN .416” = Buffalo Bull shoulder
400gr Woodleigh Hydro .410” = Buffalo Bull rear to front
400gr Woodleigh RNSN .410” = Donkey spine
400gr Woodleigh RNSN .410” = Buffalo head (failed coup de grâce)



Left to Right

400gr Woodleigh RNSN .410” = Buffalo Bull shoulder
400gr Woodleigh RNSN .416” = Buffalo Bull shoulder
400gr Woodleigh Hydro .410” = Buffalo Bull rear to front
400gr Barnes TSX .416” = Buffalo Bull shoulder
400gr Barnes TSX .416” = Buffalo Cow shoulder

--------------------
Cheers

Drew


Edited by CptCurl (31/08/10 11:11 AM)


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tophet1
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Reged: 15/09/07
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Loc: NSW, Australia
Re: Dangerous Big Game Projectile Performance – NT experience [Re: Drew_Jaeger]
      #166374 - 17/08/10 09:18 PM

Excellent and precise report. Well written with good info.

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Rockdoc
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Re: Dangerous Big Game Projectile Performance – NT experience [Re: Drew_Jaeger]
      #166375 - 17/08/10 09:21 PM

Thanks Drew. Very informative. Looks like you all had a great time.

Amazing how many shots it can take to put a buff down!

Cheers, Chris


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FATBOY404
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Reged: 14/11/09
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Re: Dangerous Big Game Projectile Performance – NT experience [Re: Rockdoc]
      #166377 - 17/08/10 10:01 PM

Gotta love those Hydro's.
The non believers must come around soon you would think.

Like I have said all along,even if Woodleigh's were only just as good as the others (I think they are better at their recommended velocity's) why not use them as they are Australian owned.

My PH in Zim said that the Hydro's would make a great Ele bullet after seeing mine work on Cape Buff. He wanted me to get some for his 416 Rem mag.

Thanks for your post.

Cheers Neale.

--------------------
"WHATEVER BLOWS YOUR HAIR BACK"


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mikeh416Rigby
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Re: Dangerous Big Game Projectile Performance – NT experience [Re: Drew_Jaeger]
      #166380 - 17/08/10 11:22 PM

Thank you for the detailed report and photo documentation.

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DarylS
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Re: Dangerous Big Game Projectile Performance – NT experience [Re: mikeh416Rigby]
      #166381 - 17/08/10 11:44 PM

An amazingly simple design - yet vitally effective. Too bad they cannot be used here in BC due to their 'solid', non-expanding nature. I'd like to try one on a good sized bull moose.

Excellent report - great photo's - well written. Bravo.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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JabaliHunter
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Re: Dangerous Big Game Projectile Performance – NT experience [Re: DarylS]
      #166398 - 18/08/10 03:36 AM

Just out of curiosity - what speed were you loading the hydros to in the .450/.400 ?

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Ben
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Re: Dangerous Big Game Projectile Performance – NT experience [Re: JabaliHunter]
      #166405 - 18/08/10 07:20 AM

Thanks for sharing this!

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Drew_Jaeger
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Reged: 27/09/09
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Re: Dangerous Big Game Projectile Performance – NT experience [Re: JabaliHunter]
      #166418 - 18/08/10 05:01 PM

Quote:

Just out of curiosity - what speed were you loading the hydros to in the .450/.400 ?



The .450/400 NE 3" is loaded to the original British specifications. Both the 400gr RNSN and 400gr Hydro are chronographed at 2060ft/s.

--------------------
Cheers

Drew


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eagle27
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Re: Dangerous Big Game Projectile Performance – NT experience [Re: Ben]
      #166419 - 18/08/10 05:03 PM

Drew

Great hunt with photos and report on bullet performance. There has been, and will always be I suppose, debate on what bullet should be used for buffalo. Some say soft, some solid. Your hunt has shown the hydro to produce great results, seemingly having the benefits of a soft giving maximum destruction and the benefits of a solid giving maximum penetration. One of the detractions in using pass through solids (a category the hydros must fall into) is the issue of collateral damage to other animals potentially costing big money if having to pay for extra animals killed or wounded. Possibly not a major concern in the NT but more so in Africa.

You do mention in your report that some Woodleigh solids were used as follow ups. I would be interested in your assessment on the effects of these FMJs on the animals that were hit.

Although Harry Selby operated mostly before the modern softs, monos and hydros, the quote from him below is interesting, he obviously knew a thing or two about dropping animals.

"In time I abandoned carrying softnose bullets for the .416, for the ones available from Kynoch tended to break up. The only possible use for a soft-nose bullet would be lion, and I found that the .416 rolled lions over with a solid pretty well anyway."
—Harry Selby


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JabaliHunter
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Re: Dangerous Big Game Projectile Performance – NT experience [Re: Drew_Jaeger]
      #166429 - 18/08/10 09:51 PM

Quote:

The .450/400 NE 3" is loaded to the original British specifications. Both the 400gr RNSN and 400gr Hydro are chronographed at 2060ft/s.



Thanks for that - very interesting! I had been wondering whether these bullets needed higher velocity to set up the hydrostatic bubble, but it seems not. I assume that in your comment on the "The performance difference of the 400gr Hydro compared to the 400gr FMJ from the 450/400 Nitro Express 3” on broadsides was very noticeable" you were referring to the Hydros vs the RNSP?

As to the other comments above on their usefulness for elephant, I wonder whether they will raise the performance level of cartridges like the .404 or .450/.400 which have always been noted for good penetration but offer less in terms of "knock down" effect on head shots compared to say the .458 or .470. Or is the real advantage on body shots? I suppose what I am really wondering is whether the hydros in a .40 calibre can make up some of the difference in "knock down" effect compared to larger calibres with heavier conventional solid 500gn bullets and greater frontal area. I'm sure many folks would like to know the same!


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Drew_Jaeger
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Reged: 27/09/09
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Re: Dangerous Big Game Projectile Performance – NT experience [Re: JabaliHunter]
      #166433 - 18/08/10 11:21 PM

From my experience, the 400gr Hydro put the Buffalo down with the shock everytime, something that didn't always happen with the 400gr FMJ follow up shots. As for elephant, I was only relaying information provided from another hunter based on his African hunting experiences.

--------------------
Cheers

Drew


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Mcleish
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Re: Dangerous Big Game Projectile Performance – NT experience [Re: Drew_Jaeger]
      #166461 - 19/08/10 09:13 AM

Hi Drew

Again great post, very informative. I am definately going to try some of these in my Whelen!


Cheers


McLeish

--------------------
Fallow might be small, but they're tasty


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Mike_Bailey
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Re: Dangerous Big Game Projectile Performance – NT experience [Re: Mcleish]
      #166479 - 19/08/10 04:32 PM

Would these Woodleighs be classed as monolithics or not i.e. would you shoot them in a double (OSR etc etc), if not I´d like to try them, thx, Mike

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Huvius
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Re: Dangerous Big Game Projectile Performance – NT experience [Re: Mike_Bailey]
      #166570 - 21/08/10 11:44 AM

Am I missing something here?
Is it now preferable to shoot through the animal?

The back of the cow's head doesn't present any evidence of the hydrostatcally created wound channel exit wound that the Woodleigh gel tests suggest.

Still a "doubting thomas" on this one...

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.


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Rule303
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Re: Dangerous Big Game Projectile Performance – NT experience [Re: Huvius]
      #166731 - 24/08/10 11:09 AM

Drew very good report and photos.

This is just my speculation. If I make it to Africa after cape buffalo I would carry Woodleigh 410Grn RNSN for my 416rigby and the Hydros. The SN for shots that may cause collateral damage on pass through.

Huvis I think you might find that the damage is soft tissue damage not a massive exit wound like you get with soft nose. Going by some reports I have seen of the Hydro's it is much like the entry but inside is a mess. Drew or other users of the Hydro's might be able to shed more light on this.


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Cinghiale
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Re: Dangerous Big Game Projectile Performance – NT experience [Re: Rule303]
      #166734 - 24/08/10 12:01 PM

G'day Drew,

great report, glad to see you had such an awesome time! Interesting to see the difference in mushroom diameter between the Woodleigh and Barnes X, I love woodleighs and will keep using the Round nose for sure but it does look like some Hydro's are in my future as the solid under the second soft!

Regards,

MOG


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4seventy
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Re: Dangerous Big Game Projectile Performance – NT experience [Re: Drew_Jaeger]
      #174803 - 04/02/11 08:19 AM

Great report, excellent photos and writeup!

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CHAPUISARMES
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Re: Dangerous Big Game Projectile Performance – NT experience [Re: 4seventy]
      #174808 - 04/02/11 09:09 AM

Hi Drew,

I suppose better late than never thanks to 4 seventy posting, I got to read the article.

It was very informative on the calibers / projectiles we all like. I love the TSX but look forward to testing the Woodleigh Hydro's and P.P.'s as the opportunity allows.


Cheers,

Jeff Gray

.


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ovny
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Re: Dangerous Big Game Projectile Performance – NT experience [Re: CHAPUISARMES]
      #175101 - 08/02/11 07:14 PM

Very interested, great report.

Oscar.

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I am Spanish


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Mike_Bailey
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Re: Dangerous Big Game Projectile Performance – NT experience [Re: ovny]
      #175108 - 08/02/11 09:31 PM

Drew, see my post above... "Would these Woodleighs be classed as monolithics or not i.e. would you shoot them in a double (OSR etc etc), if not I´d like to try them, thx, Mike"

any thoughts ? best


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CHAPUISARMES
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Re: Dangerous Big Game Projectile Performance – NT experience [Re: Mike_Bailey]
      #175109 - 08/02/11 09:50 PM

Quote:

Drew, see my post above... "Would these Woodleighs be classed as monolithics or not i.e. would you shoot them in a double (OSR etc etc), if not I´d like to try them, thx, Mike"

any thoughts ? best




Hi Mike,

How's this for an answer.. Yes / No

Although they are, I spoke to Woodleigh and they have devised a "Special" metal blend which is slightly softer and the "Bands" disipate the pressure and when I asked the same question of Geoff McDonald (Woodleigh) personally, he said that they are safe to shoot and does so in his D.R. and so has Graeme Wright. This is according to Geoff.

Hope this helps,

Cheers,

Jeff Gray

.


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DarylS
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Re: Dangerous Big Game Projectile Performance – NT experience [Re: Huvius]
      #175127 - 09/02/11 03:35 AM

Quote:

Am I missing something here?
Is it now preferable to shoot through the animal?

The back of the cow's head doesn't show any evidence of the hydrostatcally created wound channel exit wound that the Woodleigh gel tests suggest.

Still a "doubting thomas" on this one...





You bring up a good point concerning the cow's head. Cutting across and photographing a opened 'exit' would have shown if there was extra damage as in the extracted TSX hole, or merely a hole wiht minimal damage as in the full length Hydro hole. for further consideration?

Now - some things I find interesting - check the pictures of the hole where the X bullet was dug out compared to the hole where the Hydro was dug out. Now, cavitation would be directly related to the velocity possessed by the slug as it came in contact with the hide which is what stopped it(hide stretches out, stops the bullet, then slaps back against the body - this is normal). I notice the Hydro appeared to drift to a stop at the hide, creating no damage observable, a hole the size of or smaller than the slug - instead of a permanent cavity. I find that most interesting - of course, relatively high speed is necessary for cavitation, normally and a bullet impacting at 2,000fps or so, then slowing gradually to come to rest in the neck - granted a HUGE amount of total penetration. However, penetration while doing damage is the only penetration that makes a difference. Higher initial speeds would certainly help the Hydro live up to it's advertizing.

THAT is why I like to see exits - there will be a corresponding 'wound' all the way to the hide, rather than a mere pencil hole with no damage as the bullet 'coasts' to a stop against it? facts, thoery and opinion

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Ben
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Re: Dangerous Big Game Projectile Performance – NT experience [Re: DarylS]
      #175149 - 09/02/11 07:01 AM

I'm no good at theories and what not. But Geoff did tell me that the higher the velocity the better the hydro will work in terms of wound channel.

My tally with the hydro and the Ruger single-shot .450/.400 3" amounts to just five buffalo and one small pig. They have brought the buffalo down as quick or even quicker than soft points from my .416 Rigby, and they give me wonderful confidence in knowing that whatever the angle, I can reach the vitals. Having said that, I have only hit side- or front-on with them so far. They have all passed-through, except one of the end-for-enders.


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500Nitro
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Re: Dangerous Big Game Projectile Performance – NT experience [Re: Mike_Bailey]
      #175151 - 09/02/11 07:10 AM

Quote:

Drew, see my post above... "Would these Woodleighs be classed as monolithics or not i.e. would you shoot them in a double (OSR etc etc), if not I´d like to try them, thx, Mike"

any thoughts ? best





Yes.

I have fired them in one of my DR's - al beit at the request of Geoff as we needed some recoveries from the NT fired from a DR.

Now, I am dead against using mono's in a DR, but I trust Geoff and Graeme Wright and had carried the Hydro's before during development for a 375 Bolt so knew what they were and how built so didn't have a problem using them in my 500/465.

I also believe someone else in Tas used them in his H&H 500/465 as well.


I'd be less concerned by the "special blend" and more concerned about the design - ie the bands since the main part of the bullet doesn't touch the rifling.

I'd use them again, without a problem. I don't have a problem using Woodleigh SN, they all kill.

Hope that helps.

.

Edited by 500Nitro (09/02/11 07:13 AM)


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