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nitro450exp
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Reged: 06/09/07
Posts: 254
Loc: Michigan, USA

BP DGS Slugs !
#164638 - 20/07/10 11:46 PM

Hello,

Just got a batch of the BP DGS Slugs in 12 and 20.
The load data sheets provided do to not have any IMR 700X, 800X and SR 4756 data.
Also the multi-hull does not specify plastic or paper, I believe they make both.

Does anyone have any tested loads for the paper hulls and IMR powders ?

Thanks
Nitro

PS: Does anyone have any opinions in general about this slug ?

I have some Fiocchi Law enforcement slugs, loaded with this slug.

--------------------
"Man is a predator or at least those of us that kill and eat our own meat are. The rest are scavengers, eating what others kill for them." Hugh Randall

45/70 DR / 12ga Paradox
470 NE DR
12 Bore DR
20 Bore DR
450 NE SR
577 NE SR

Edited by nitro450exp (20/07/10 11:48 PM)

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DarylS
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Re: BP DGS Slugs ! [Re: nitro450exp]
#164721 - 22/07/10 01:25 AM

Nitro - weigh the slugs with their wads, then start with shot data of the same weight (giving for example, 8,000LUP) - I'd use SR4756 or 7625. 800x should also be OK due to being a 'slower' powder. I'd not use 700X as it is a trap powder meant to give low (trap shooting) velocities at peak pressure for the bore). The starting data (Lyman) should give a very safe starting point, then you can increase as pressure signs and velocities show. This is how I devloped my own data when starting with round balls and no printed data.

I use this same procedure for all unknown projectiles in the bore guns.

--------------------
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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nitro450exp
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Re: BP DGS Slugs ! [Re: DarylS]
#164727 - 22/07/10 03:45 AM

Daryl, and others.

What are typical signs of pressure in shotguns ?
Will you get primer flattening ?
And sticky extraction, like metallic reloading ?

Thanks
Nitro

PS: Slug plus wad = 495 garins ~ 1 1/8 oz.
I have load data from BPI for PB, Unique, Longshot, SR7625 and blue dot
I will compare there 1 1/8 field loads for those powders and see the relationship
Should be able to substitute 4756 and 800X at same ratio.

--------------------
"Man is a predator or at least those of us that kill and eat our own meat are. The rest are scavengers, eating what others kill for them." Hugh Randall

45/70 DR / 12ga Paradox
470 NE DR
12 Bore DR
20 Bore DR
450 NE SR
577 NE SR

Edited by nitro450exp (22/07/10 06:12 AM)

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DarylS
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Re: BP DGS Slugs ! [Re: nitro450exp]
#164742 - 22/07/10 03:27 PM

Yes - primers will show pressure in comparrison to normal shot loads. They'll also get sticky as well in the chambers.

I've wanted to try Longshot myself as I think it will have good results in ball and slug loads.

The slower the powders, the better they seem to work. I adjust wad columns to suit for the crimp I'm using, which is usually a fold crimp with round ball loads.

I noticed one Lyman load shows 40.0gr. with 4756 when using a .690 ball - that's about 495gr. to 500gr.

Still, I'd start with 26gr. when using the 1 1/8oz ball. You'll probably end up with around 28 to 34gr. for max. depending on the ball, wad column and velocity required. A chronograph is useful when developing data.

4756 should take you up[ to abotu 1,400 fps wihtout problem. You might get regulation around 1,200fps, though. Whatever works the best.

--------------------
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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nitro450exp
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Re: BP DGS Slugs ! [Re: DarylS]
#165123 - 29/07/10 12:50 AM

Hello,

Loaded up 8 rounds of the DGS over 34 grains Unique.
From the data provided by BPI.
Roll crimped.
We will see how they perform.
I ran them through my sizer die just to reduce the chance of leading.
I will shoot them this Saturday and check the usual items ( Leading, Vel, accuracy etc)

Will also try the LBC Blueforce slugs.
These will require surrogate data since they do not use any of the powders I already have.
SR 4756, 700X, 800X and Unique
They call for, RedDot and Bullseye.

I will also try some more of my Turbo hammerhead hard cast slugs.
With a few grains more and after relubing to see if I can get the leading down.
I will also try a roll crimp on these, now that I have a roll crimper.

Thanks
Nitro

--------------------
"Man is a predator or at least those of us that kill and eat our own meat are. The rest are scavengers, eating what others kill for them." Hugh Randall

45/70 DR / 12ga Paradox
470 NE DR
12 Bore DR
20 Bore DR
450 NE SR
577 NE SR

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DarylS
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Re: BP DGS Slugs ! [Re: nitro450exp]
#165141 - 29/07/10 05:07 AM

Current Handloader magazine has an article on tose slugs- at least the Blueforce, I think or maybe it was the harder, hammerhead slugs with wads attached?. The author used Bluedot, 4756, Unique and Longshot as well.
I would be careful using such fast burners as Red Dot and Bullseye. I would much rather use slower burning powders.

In any event, it's a good article.

--------------------
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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nitro450exp
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Re: BP DGS Slugs ! [Re: DarylS]
#165556 - 02/08/10 11:50 PM

Well, it was an OK day at the range.
The BPS were crap, They were accurate enough but left sheets of lead in the barrel ?
I still haven't figured out that one, somehow the slugs were getting "shaved" and super thin sheets of lead remained in the barrel.
The RB performed about as expected. They did rip the roll crimp off on about 30% of the rim.
The result of using paper shells.
The LBC's worked well.
The Lightfield Slugs also worked well.

Did not get to shoot the Hammer heads, ran out of time.

Will do a more detailed report with targets and velocities.

Cheers
Nitro

--------------------
"Man is a predator or at least those of us that kill and eat our own meat are. The rest are scavengers, eating what others kill for them." Hugh Randall

45/70 DR / 12ga Paradox
470 NE DR
12 Bore DR
20 Bore DR
450 NE SR
577 NE SR

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DarylS
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Re: BP DGS Slugs ! [Re: nitro450exp]
#165587 - 03/08/10 01:56 AM

Looking foreward to that report, Nitro.

Interesting about the roll crimps. When I use round balls, I've had no such problem, but then, I used folded or semi-folded (cone shaped) crimps with once fired plastic hulls.

I have just loaded up a whack of Lyman's slugs in the red 'field' wad, with 34gr. of SR4756 and CCI 209's, folded crimp for my Mossy rifled barrel. This was one of the loads listed in the handloader magazine - at 1,450fps, approximately. The Lyman slugs I have weigh 506gr. in WW alloy.

I have some others to try in/with wads as well - 580gr. from a homemade .687" mould as well as .690" 730gr. 'Original' US military Minnie from a Lyman mould. Both are in pure lead. The mould I bored, can cast up to 1,200gr. weight - much more than I want to shoot.

One aspect of using undersized slugs or round balls, is the total absence of leading. At times, it can be difficult to remove.

A "Kurly Kate" or "Curly Kate" pot scrubber made of copper strands, almost like lathe turnings is a good method of removing leading from rifled as well as smooth bores. There is a stainless 'ball' for cleaning pots that I wouldn't use. The copper scrubbers will not hurt the bore of either smooth nor rifle. Simply snip a 'strand' of copper from the 'ball' and pull them out, then wrap the 'strands' around a wire brush, then wet with a powder solvent and stroke. The lead comes out quickly and easily with the copper strands with those sharp edges cutting it better than steel wool - even from rifles as noted.

--------------------
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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nitro450exp
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Re: BP DGS Slugs ! [Re: DarylS]
#165601 - 03/08/10 04:47 AM

Daryl

I am shooting overbore RB's 0.735"
So that may have something to do with the roll crimp/hull damage.
Leading is not too bad.
I use a stainles turbo brush and a kleenbore tapered brush.
The lead comes out pretty easy.

Thanks
Nitro

--------------------
"Man is a predator or at least those of us that kill and eat our own meat are. The rest are scavengers, eating what others kill for them." Hugh Randall

45/70 DR / 12ga Paradox
470 NE DR
12 Bore DR
20 Bore DR
450 NE SR
577 NE SR

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nitro450exp
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Re: BP DGS Slugs ! Update with targets. [Re: nitro450exp]
#165812 - 06/08/10 04:49 AM

Update 8/5 with pictures

Some loaded ammo.
BPI DGS with roll crimp on left and RB with RC on right.

Now the targets.

These were the Lightfields at 50 yds Orange dot is 2".
I was mainly shooting to get a chrony result and see if I had pressure issues.
All appeared OK so I will develop this slug further.

These were the RB with 34 grains

RB 35 Grains.

Finally the BPI LBC's
As with the Lightfield I was just checking this load since it was based on surrogate data.
Looks promising and worth further work.

Thanks
Nitro

--------------------
"Man is a predator or at least those of us that kill and eat our own meat are. The rest are scavengers, eating what others kill for them." Hugh Randall

45/70 DR / 12ga Paradox
470 NE DR
12 Bore DR
20 Bore DR
450 NE SR
577 NE SR

Edited by CptCurl (19/08/10 09:03 PM)

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DarylS
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Re: BP DGS Slugs ! Update with targets. [Re: nitro450exp]
#165892 - 08/08/10 02:43 AM

I take it the RB groups dirverging or crossing along with elevation -ie: the three together, then spearation and 3 more together are the individual barrel groups?

When I shot my double using the SR4756 powder, I use an undersized ball with a plastic cup wad underneath to hold it centred in the barrel. With the heaviest loads, the barerls shot together, same elvation. I might have been just lucky.

My .58 muzzleloading double rifle shoots to diffferent elevations right and left with too little or too much powder. They cross with 80gr. BP, right bl. 1 1/2" higher and to the left, then come together at the same elevation, same hole group with another 20 gr. of BP, then spearate perfectly with another 10gr. (110) BP (1" apart, same hole), then they diverge 2" apart with another 10gr.(120) with the left shooting higher by 1 1/2" than the right.

I found smaller balls did not shoot the same as larger diameter balls - so all this means is that any change, even wads, can change the regulation and grouping of the barrels - which is exactly what Ross Seyfreid found with his double guns. This is what makes Double Gun shooting so much fun, even though it is frustrating MOST if the time.

From the appearance of the RB groups, I'd be trying 33gr.

--------------------
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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tinker
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Re: BP DGS Slugs ! Update with targets. [Re: DarylS]
#165909 - 08/08/10 11:46 AM

Nitro-

Quote:

...any change, even wads, can change the regulation and grouping of the barrels...
This is what makes Double Gun shooting so much fun, even though it is frustrating MOST if the time.

From the appearance of the RB groups, I'd be trying 33gr.

I have similar experience to what Daryl notes here.
When you end up with a bore rifle without 'the load' as a known-good recipe, there can be surprises along the way to getting it hitting properly.
Screw with all the variables, including hardness of the roundball and formula of lube (if you're using it, try it if you're not) and keep it up at the range.

Cheers
Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--

"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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BadgerPowell
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Re: BP DGS Slugs ! [Re: nitro450exp]
#165925 - 08/08/10 10:20 PM

Quote:

Well, it was an OK day at the range.
The BPS were crap, They were accurate enough but left sheets of lead in the barrel ?
I still haven't figured out that one, somehow the slugs were getting "shaved" and super thin sheets of lead remained in the barrel.

I have exactly the same problem with these slugs. I've found them to be very accurate but the lead in the barrel has to be seen to be believed.

Take a look at this buck and slug load data it may help with load data, but as for the leading I've tried everything and never cured it.

Badger

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DarylS
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Re: BP DGS Slugs ! [Re: BadgerPowell]
#165926 - 08/08/10 11:08 PM

Badger - thanks for that data - can use it to interpolate to other slugs/balls of similar weight- being careful to start a bit low, of course. There is some lee-way, though, if using built up wad colums, as they are less efficient than plastic gas checks.

I haven't use PB for years - used to for .4545 Colt loads - might evne have a pound of it around - good pressure/velocity ratios with it.

--------------------
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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BadgerPowell
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Re: BP DGS Slugs ! [Re: DarylS]
#165997 - 10/08/10 06:01 AM

Hi Daryl

I have a scan of the manufacturers data taken directly from the bulk box for these 12 gauge slugs. I will post it just as soon as I sus out how to post pictures.

Badger

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BadgerPowell
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Re: BP DGS Slugs ! [Re: DarylS]
#166000 - 10/08/10 06:33 AM

Hi Daryl

This is the scan I mentioned in my previous post.

It was scanned directly from a box of 500 slugs I buy for resale in the UK

Also follow this link to the Gualandi site for more slug data, but be aware the weights are shown in grams not grains.
Gualandi load data

Badger

Edited by CptCurl (19/08/10 09:05 PM)

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DarylS
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Re: BP DGS Slugs ! [Re: BadgerPowell]
#166010 - 10/08/10 10:04 AM

Thanks Badger
I've heard of the Gualandi's, of course but have never fired any.

I kind of like the way my 'cupped' undersized round balls don't touch and therefore don't lead my bore.

The 'Foster' slugs were also bad for leading.

--------------------
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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nitro450exp
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Re: BP DGS Slugs ! [Re: DarylS]
#166034 - 10/08/10 10:14 PM

Guys

The leading on the Gualandi's is a total mystery to me.
Let me explain: If you look at the above picture you will see that the slug has a base ring and a top ring and 2 spiral flutes.
The top ring is overbore / fullbore at 0.730" depending on your barrel.
The bottom ring is underbore at 0.722".
The boddy is way underbore at 0.690".
The flutes taper rapidly from the full bore ring down to the underbore ring.

In my case I ran them through my custom sizer die, so that the upper ring was exactly the same bore as the smooth bore portion of my barrel ( 0.7265" )

So where the HE!! did the lead sheets that were left in the barrel come from ?
They were getting shaved some how.
The chamber in my gun does not have a step as far as i remember, may have to look again.
I remember it just tapers down to bore size in front of the chamber.
The hulls were 2 3/4" full length, brand new.

Any Ideas ?

Nitro

PS: The dimensions are from memory, I did sit down and make all these measurements with a caliper
They may be a little off.

--------------------
"Man is a predator or at least those of us that kill and eat our own meat are. The rest are scavengers, eating what others kill for them." Hugh Randall

45/70 DR / 12ga Paradox
470 NE DR
12 Bore DR
20 Bore DR
450 NE SR
577 NE SR

Edited by nitro450exp (10/08/10 10:17 PM)

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DarylS
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Re: BP DGS Slugs ! [Re: nitro450exp]
#166035 - 10/08/10 10:55 PM

They are quite soft - I assume, like Foster slugs. This allows them to obturate in the bore - result and with no lubricant, leading. Some alloys lead worse than others. Some alloys of lead ar emore difficult to remove than others. Many shotguns have chrome-lined bores, which makes lead removal easier than in non-chrome-lined bores.

--------------------
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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nitro450exp
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Re: BP DGS Slugs ! [Re: DarylS]
#166036 - 10/08/10 11:33 PM

Daryl

The leading from the other soft balls and slugs
was in front of the taper of the chamber and really stuck to the barrels.
These slugs left loose sheets of lead, like gold foil laying loose in the barrel.
I blew it out onto the floor with my breath !!!
Really wierd, like I said more of a shaving affect than traditional leading.

And yes they are really soft.
I recovered one slug and the body had expanded to full bore completely absorbing the rings and flutes.

Thanks
Nitro

--------------------
"Man is a predator or at least those of us that kill and eat our own meat are. The rest are scavengers, eating what others kill for them." Hugh Randall

45/70 DR / 12ga Paradox
470 NE DR
12 Bore DR
20 Bore DR
450 NE SR
577 NE SR

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beleg2
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Re: BP DGS Slugs ! [Re: nitro450exp]
#166073 - 11/08/10 08:58 PM

Daryl,
The Gualandi slugs I have, are very hard.
I have not check hardness but it looks like linotype.
Martin

Edited by beleg2 (11/08/10 09:00 PM)

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nitro450exp
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Re: BP DGS Slugs ! [Re: beleg2]
#166188 - 13/08/10 10:59 PM

Beleg

The slugs look like Linotype to me also, very bright almost zinc or tin coloured.
But acted like pure lead.
I did also notice something.
I had a few rounds of Fiocchi Law Enforcement Slugs.
They are the same slug.
I took one appart and the wad on the factory slug is set deeper into the slug,
all the way up to the plastic ring ( See picture you provided above )
I wonder when and why they changed this ?

It looks like the factory loaded slug is better supported and less likely to expand,
due to the wad being forced further into the cavity of the slug.

Cheers Nitro

--------------------
"Man is a predator or at least those of us that kill and eat our own meat are. The rest are scavengers, eating what others kill for them." Hugh Randall

45/70 DR / 12ga Paradox
470 NE DR
12 Bore DR
20 Bore DR
450 NE SR
577 NE SR

Edited by CptCurl (19/08/10 09:04 PM)

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DarylS
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Re: BP DGS Slugs ! [Re: nitro450exp]
#166231 - 15/08/10 12:55 AM

Quote:

Daryl

I recovered one slug and the body had expanded to full bore completely absorbing the rings and flutes.

Thanks
Nitro

This is what I found with the 'rifled' Foster slugs. About any lead alloy with lead a bore when contacting the bore walls, if there is no lubricant. Gas blowby is also a cause, as its melts lead of the sides of the projectiles, they blows that ahead of the bullet, which irons it onto the bore.

This hot gas blowby action usually causes the lead to adhere quite firmly to the leangth of th bore with hard bullets. With soft bullets that finally obturate to seal, it happens closer to the breech, right at the throat in most instances, before the bullet completely fills the bore to seal off the powder gasses.

--------------------
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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