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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Double Rifles
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Ron_Vella
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Reged: 29/04/05
Posts: 432
Loc: Oshawa, Ontario, Canada
Brass pins in wrist of Simson guns?
      #166226 - 14/08/10 11:08 PM

A few months ago I picked up a nice Simson Cape gun/shotgun combo, built in Suhl in November 1931.The gun has two brass pins through the wrist of the buttstock, as shown in my photo below. I assumed that this was a repair, but I wasn't thinking very clearly. There is not a single crack anywhere in the wrist nor behind either the upper or lower tangs. When I bought the gun, the checkering was so badly worn as to be non-existent in places. I re-cut all of the checkering and this process would have exposed any hidden repair in that area. Also these pins are perfectly flush with the surface of the wood and are perfectly contoured to match the compound curves in this area. Now I see a post below, by Jaeger01, concerning a Simson, Suhl, Cape gun which shows what looks like an identical brass pin in the exact same location as the forward pin on my gun. So now this makes me wonder, was this actually an option which was available from Simson in order to preclude cracking in the wrist area? I'd be interested to hear from anyone else who has a Simson Cape gun with the same brass pins or from Raimey who has forgotten more about these matters than most of us will know.

Best,
Ron Vella.



Edited by CptCurl (17/08/10 08:33 PM)

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casper50
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Reged: 18/10/07
Posts: 1451
Loc: Alaska
Re: Brass pins in wrist of Simson guns? [Re: Ron_Vella]
      #166254 - 15/08/10 07:58 PM

I've seen many brass pins in the wrist of many guns. They were all for a repair. Mostly to draw the forward portion of the butt stock together when the wood splits inside allowing the sides to spread.

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Ron_Vella
.333 member


Reged: 29/04/05
Posts: 432
Loc: Oshawa, Ontario, Canada
Re: Brass pins in wrist of Simson guns? [Re: casper50]
      #166263 - 15/08/10 10:34 PM

Yes, so have we all, which is exactly the point of my post. Why would one install two pins to repair a crack which does not exist?

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casper50
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Reged: 18/10/07
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Loc: Alaska
Re: Brass pins in wrist of Simson guns? [Re: Ron_Vella]
      #166264 - 15/08/10 10:35 PM

Why would one install two pins in offset position for looks?

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Ron_Vella
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Reged: 29/04/05
Posts: 432
Loc: Oshawa, Ontario, Canada
Re: Brass pins in wrist of Simson guns? [Re: casper50]
      #166269 - 16/08/10 01:40 AM

Where you install the pins is pretty much determined by the internal mechanism, the safety, safety rod, trigger mechanism,hand pin, etc. There is not a great deal of available free space in there.

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ellenbr
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Reged: 25/08/07
Posts: 167
Loc: North Alabama
Re: Brass pins in wrist of Simson guns? [Re: Ron_Vella]
      #166277 - 16/08/10 02:44 AM

Ron:
Regarding German gunmaking knowledge, for now I don't think I can hardly live up to your expectations but I'm working on it. I would look for a fine hairline crack at the head of the stock. I don't think a craftsman would go to that much effort without there being a reason. To my knowledge, there wasn't any stock reinforcement on the Simson/BSW or Sauer longarms. It seems that Simson sourced the bulk of their tubes from Sauer. But when warranted like on combos, Pigeon guns and DRs one will see the pipe, 1/2 pipe, or massivem Hakenstück side frame reinforcement. The Sauer combo fell out of favor in the early 1920s but could be purchased thru special order, which seem to have a longer length from the standing breech to the hinge pin. What's your length 50mm??I'd first guess the failure of the stock was due to some dynamics of the cape as others including combos are found with similar pins:
http://www.gunsinternational.com/Sauer-12-gauge.cfm?gun_id=100123186

http://www.crosnoeguns.com/itemdetail.asp?ID=5008

But then again it could be a result of a steady diet of higher pressure scattergun cartridges. Yours maybe be a Simson Modell Astora or Modell 35B. I assume BSW kept the same models. I'd say that Simson concentrated more on auto, bicycles, household utilities and military orders more than sporting versions. Now they could have forged components but I'd say economics forced them to source tubes as well as frames. About the time your example was made there was some friction between Simson and the Association of Zella-Mehlis Weapons Manufactures led by Fritz Walther, so I'd say they didn't source many of the craftsmen of Zella-Mehlis. Suhl also had such an association and it looks as if these ties along with family lines allowed for heavy sourcing between members. I'm fairly sure Simson wasn't a memeber of the Suhl Weapons Manufactures Association.


Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

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kuduae
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Reged: 13/01/10
Posts: 1792
Loc: middle of Germany
Re: Brass pins in wrist of Simson guns? [Re: Ron_Vella]
      #166278 - 16/08/10 02:49 AM

sometimes such crosspins were installed on special order by either the original maker or a country gunsmith to prevent cracking. Usually these cross pins were made of steel as on Jaeger01's Simson cape gun. IMHO these brass pins were installed by a country- or hobby gunsmith to strengthen a well done repair or just for "insurance".

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German foresters: We like sustainability! For merely 300 years by 2013.

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Ron_Vella
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Reged: 29/04/05
Posts: 432
Loc: Oshawa, Ontario, Canada
Re: Brass pins in wrist of Simson guns? [Re: kuduae]
      #166281 - 16/08/10 05:36 AM

Raimey,
I notice that on the guns in both links that you posted, the heads of the pins are well engraved. This leads me to believe that the guns came from the maker that way. However, as we both know, you can take NOTHING for granted in this game!

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