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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Double Rifles
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mehulkamdar
.416 member


Reged: 09/01/04
Posts: 3688
Loc: State of Ill-Annoy USA.
Forgotten and lesser known best gun makers
      #16400 - 03/07/04 03:10 PM

The post on the 500 Rimmed Mahillon made me think about this - there are some gunmakers whom we read about in glowing terms in some old literature but they some sadly went the way of the dodo in the world wars and others survive but are not well known to most average shooters. I shall list some names that I have heard though I don't know much about and it would be interesting if the better informed members would put their own lists here as well as tell us what they know about these grand old names as well as new names.

Cordy, Pirotte, Mahillon, Elko Armes and Darne are names that I know are gone as is Mahillon. Two names of companies that still exist to the best of my knowledge but that I know very little about are Le Forgeron and Georges Granger.

One that I know about is P Orr and Sons who existed in my hometown of Madras (now renamed Chennai) who sold all of the grand old "name" brands as well as had shotguns and double rifles made by the various incarnations if the Webley and Scott company. The Indian gunsmiths who worked for them all have thriving smaller shops in Chennai now and their sons work for them as well, but the beautiful old shop on Mount Road os now closed forever.

Please post what you know about these and also list any other gunmakers that are no longer with us. Thanks and good hunting!

--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

Mehul Kamdar

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mehulkamdar
.416 member


Reged: 09/01/04
Posts: 3688
Loc: State of Ill-Annoy USA.
Re: Forgotten and lesser known best gun makers [Re: mehulkamdar]
      #16421 - 05/07/04 11:04 AM

Well, I just wondered what happened to the Woodward name as Purdey own it but they don't seem to be doing much with it and I wonder whether the classic Woodward designs are still in production even if they are in Purdey's name?

An Illustrious but new firm was Symes and Wright in Britain and they too collapsed recently.

Also a name that I had a mention of in a book on shotgunning in India is Caprinus Sweden. Another company that has closed down as far as I know. From Germany was the Collath company who even had their own system of measuring "guages" or bores for their shotguns and rifles...

I wonder how many more died overall and which ones are being resurrected. Fortunately, we have John Dickson, WW Greener, Atkin Grant and Lang, W J Jeffery, Webley and Scott (or another version of their name), Manton and Cogswell and Harrison among many companies who have been revived and deservedly. Any further information, please, friends?

Good hunting!

--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

Mehul Kamdar

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470Rigby
.333 member


Reged: 23/02/04
Posts: 328
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Re: Forgotten and lesser known best gun makers [Re: mehulkamdar]
      #16422 - 05/07/04 12:29 PM

Mehul

Last time I visited P. Orr and Son in "Anna Salai" they were selling junk watches and other trinkets. When I asked the staff about their gun retailing days, all I got was blank looks! Now they have closed down forever???

Very sad! Now all you can find in a Gun House in Madras is an assortment of air pistols and rifles!

P. Orr & son did retail guns signed by them. The only example I have a photo of is a plain finished .470 Nitro. Very reminiscent of a Wilkes ? Here is a photo.



There is another poster on this forum that would probably kill for an Orr Nitro double??

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mehulkamdar
.416 member


Reged: 09/01/04
Posts: 3688
Loc: State of Ill-Annoy USA.
Re: Forgotten and lesser known best gun makers [Re: 470Rigby]
      #16423 - 05/07/04 01:57 PM

470 Nitro,

It's sad isn't it? Anna Salai is the new name the politicians gave Mount Road and Madras has been renamed Chennai...
Anyway, the former gunsmiths at P Orr and Sons now all have their own shops. Sammandan and Sons is just a few hundred metres down the road at the corner of Mount Road (I'm not going to call it Anna Salai ever!) and Triplicane High Road, Hindustan Armoury is at Anna Pillai Street, Shikar Armoury near the Luz Circle, Scott and Sons is at Egmore and you have some smaller armouries at Periamet and Nandanam. If you go there, you will definitely see much more than silly air rifles though these days they seem to sell more handguns than hunting rifles or shotguns.
If you would like to see some good double rifles or older Raj Era boltguns in India, you should visit Delhi or Bombay and I could give you the names of some companies there whom you could check with. There are also some good shops in Kanpur and Ranchi but the biggest ones in Calcutta are all gone forever - O C Daw, G M Biswas, Manton etc.
When the Karumuttu Chettiyar people bought the P Orr and Sons company, they kept the name for some time. Now they have renamed the company something else but everyone stills calls it P Orr and Sons. The disgraceful watch showroom is still on the ground floor but the upper storeys have been turned into a garment sweatshop - a sad end to one of my favourite places to go to some twenty five or more years ago. Incidentally, I have occasionally seen some rifles retailed by them under their name on websites including Gunsamerica in the US. The only positive thing is that these guns are probably in much better shapemoutside India than they ever would be over there.
I am not in India at the moment but do let me know if you go there sometime - we could meet for a drink at my club which is not far at all from the old P Orr and Sons office.
Good hunting!

--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

Mehul Kamdar

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ALF
.275 member


Reged: 21/11/03
Posts: 51
Loc: Out of Africa
Re: Forgotten and lesser known best gun makers [Re: mehulkamdar]
      #16426 - 05/07/04 04:00 PM

As far as the English guntrade goes there is little doubt that the Labour government under one Harold Wilson had much to do with the demise of a once fine industry.

As far as Euope goes WW2 put an end to many a fine operation.

I often wonder how it may have been without the intreceding events of WW2

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470Rigby
.333 member


Reged: 23/02/04
Posts: 328
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Re: Forgotten and lesser known best gun makers [Re: mehulkamdar]
      #16427 - 05/07/04 05:58 PM

Mehul

I have visited some of these other Madras Gun Houses - and been promised that they could lay they hands on all sorts of things, but they rarely eventuate! Interesting though that they owe their origins to P.Orr & Son! When I visited, I inquired about whether there might be some old stock of accessories etc, but that didn't compute either! So, we can blame the Chettiars?? Well, I forgive them, since Chettinad cuisine would have to be my favourite!

RE Woodwards, after 50 years of owning the name, Purdey's finally got around to making them again; the resumption of Serial numbers starting with No. 7185 (the last true Woodward being No.7184 being made in 1948!)

I understand that the original Woodward U/O design is much more difficult to produce than the Purdey version, and that they have stopped making them because there is not much money to be made from them??

Symes and Wright were buiding their U/O's in the Woodward style - many believe that it is superior to the Boss design, and I'm inclined to agree!

Here is a photo of an original Woodward U/O!

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mehulkamdar
.416 member


Reged: 09/01/04
Posts: 3688
Loc: State of Ill-Annoy USA.
Re: Forgotten and lesser known best gun makers [Re: 470Rigby]
      #16435 - 06/07/04 01:28 AM

470 Rigby,

If you want to look at some good old doubles, you should visit Bombay and meet Rusi Jijina of the Bombay Gun House - he always has some most interesting double rifles and shotguns in stock. I doubt he does much business as the Bombay gun laws are very strict but the old man has a passion for his business that is wonderful if you're a gun nut. I have also seen some interesting double rifles in Bombay at H S Bandukwala and Sons - Hanzala Bandukwala had some rare rifles like a Westley Richards 250-3000 double in his shop some 3 or 4 years ago.

There are also dealers in Delhi like Paramjit Singh Sodhi and G S Lakshman Yadav whose addresses I could give you if you want them. Since you know your way around India, you know how to haggle, I guess

Yes, the Chettiars were the people to blame for the demise of P Orr and Sons. As far as I know, other than Hindustan Armoury, all others came out of P Orr and Sons staff. I also learned that Scott of Scott and sons died two months ago and his son, like 90% of India's Anglo-Indian community, is planning to close the business down and move to Australia. I can't really blame him as they haven't been doing as much business as the other shops have.

And now, thanks for the good news about the Woodward name being revived by Purdey. You would think that there was room for two illustrious names to survive together even if both were owned by a single company... Hope Purdey will bring back the original Woodward design now that they have revived the name. There is hope!

Thank you for the brilliant pictures and good hunting!

--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

Mehul Kamdar

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NitroXAdministrator
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Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 39247
Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...
Re: Forgotten and lesser known best gun makers [Re: 470Rigby]
      #16436 - 06/07/04 01:33 AM

In reply to:

There is another poster on this forum that would probably kill for an Orr Nitro double??





It must be the (brand) name!



--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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mehulkamdar
.416 member


Reged: 09/01/04
Posts: 3688
Loc: State of Ill-Annoy USA.
Re: Forgotten and lesser known best gun makers [Re: ALF]
      #16437 - 06/07/04 02:08 AM

ALF,

Fortunately, many of the best British names have been revived even if it was with foreign capital as in the case of Holland and Holland. Wouldn't it be nice if the same could happen to some of the fine Continental names as well? But then I am hopelessly biased in favour of reviving old traditions of craftsmanship personally...

Good hunting!

--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

Mehul Kamdar

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pwm
.300 member


Reged: 15/06/04
Posts: 216
Loc: Banana Republik of Germany
Re: Forgotten and lesser known best gun makers [Re: mehulkamdar]
      #16440 - 06/07/04 05:27 AM

dear sir

I am amazed you know the name Teschner-Collath in india. This was a very old german firm that was going in the big hunting grounds when Frankfurt an der Oder, their old location burning down in the winter 1944/45. Let me say you the firm and the speial shotgun cartridge is allmost forgotten in germany. you find guns sometimes on gunshows, most are drillings and I have never see a bad gun from teschner collath. It was allways a "Herrenwaffe" you may say gentlemans gun. their action was unique and very strong and the shotgun cartridges No.0,1,3,4,5,6,7,8 you mention are also unique with a needle fire primer inside the case. the cartridge was older than the lancester shotgun cartridge we use today.

sincerely your's

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Marrakai
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Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 3482
Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia
Re: Forgotten and lesser known best gun makers [Re: NitroX]
      #16463 - 06/07/04 10:54 PM

A close friend in Darwin has a Holloway paradox with Orr & Son on the rib.

...and yes, Wayne, I do keep an eye out for another!

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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mehulkamdar
.416 member


Reged: 09/01/04
Posts: 3688
Loc: State of Ill-Annoy USA.
Re: Forgotten and lesser known best gun makers [Re: pwm]
      #16469 - 07/07/04 10:29 AM

pwm,

Quite frankly, I don't know anything more than Collath's name and I had heard (or read) somewhere about their proprietary bore and caliber system. Thanks for giving the very interesting information - this is exactly the kind of information that learners like me try to get from more experienced people on forums like this.

And please don't call me "sir" - I am neither too old nor eminent for me to be called that. Do keep in touch - I just might want to bug you with more questions since I am only now trying to learn about guns.

In friendship,

Mehul Kamdar.

--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

Mehul Kamdar

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pwm
.300 member


Reged: 15/06/04
Posts: 216
Loc: Banana Republik of Germany
Re: Forgotten and lesser known best gun makers [Re: mehulkamdar]
      #16497 - 08/07/04 05:19 AM

dear sir

respect do not depand on age but i do believe that you are more than one year older than me and this is enough.
Teschner Collath is one of my favorite's, I know only 4 shotgun cartridge systems and most ones of us only know 1. the first shotgun cartridge was the french pinfire Lefaucheux cartridge with the Lefaucheux breech action. this is the mother of all breech actions we have. the lancester center fire shotgun cartridge, the same we use today was derived from this, the case is very similar , have only a thicker rim. In germany exist 2 different shotgun cartridge family's, booth starting in the 1860 year's before the lanchester cartridge come on the market. the first was the "von Dreyse" cartridge measured in prussian inch(a prussian inch have 26.4mm, a british inch have 25,4mm). this was a needle fire cartridge, paper hull with a solid base the "Schlußspiegel" but the oldest ones have only a paper hull like the Dreyse military rifle cartridge. cartridges exist from 59" to 74" but 70" similar to 16 bore is the most common. Teschner Collath have another shotgun cartridge system and the numbers 0-8 do not have any conection with the Lancester shotgun bore numbers, it was only for name the cartridge. you find most times a lanchester cartridge fits the teschner collath gun but the cartridge may split when firing because this chambers made for a cartridge with a conical base.
You may not see Dreyse or Collath guns outside of germany or the german influenced east europe and when india was the biggest hunting weapon market arround 1900 we look more to gunmaker from Suhl like Meffert or Schueler and the Mauser factory.

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mehulkamdar
.416 member


Reged: 09/01/04
Posts: 3688
Loc: State of Ill-Annoy USA.
Re: Forgotten and lesser known best gun makers [Re: pwm]
      #16511 - 08/07/04 11:49 PM

pwm,

Thanks again for the information. Frankly, the only double rifle of German origin I have seen in India was a Sauer. There are some bolt action rifles and while Mausers are highly preferred these days in the west, the classic bolt action in India was always a Mannlicher. Older Winchesters and Remingtons are also available as are some older Weatherbys but then we are speaking of a different era altogether...

I just saw an old Collath action modified into a 45-70 double rifle on Gunbroker - I hope it doesn't break your heart!

http://gunbroker.com/auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=20292954

Best wishes,

--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

Mehul Kamdar

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500grains
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Reged: 16/02/04
Posts: 4732
Loc: Salt Lake City, Utah USA
Re: Forgotten and lesser known best gun makers [Re: mehulkamdar]
      #16520 - 09/07/04 08:23 AM



Aaaaaaargh!!!!!

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pwm
.300 member


Reged: 15/06/04
Posts: 216
Loc: Banana Republik of Germany
Re: Forgotten and lesser known best gun makers [Re: 500grains]
      #16547 - 10/07/04 12:46 AM

hope someone buy it and rechamber the gun for the 450 3 1/4 BPE, this was a real Collath caliber. By the way, only in the Collath catalog from 1914 I found a 500BPE cartridge with a 3,38" long case. Anybody here have seen a 500BPE cartridge with a case over 3,25" long?
The Manlicher Schoenauer Rifle was the little brother of the Mauser 98 rifle,allways a beautyfull and fine gun. A gunmaker in austria now build new Mannlicher Schoenauer. He have learned by Mannlicher and build the old ones when he was a young man.

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mehulkamdar
.416 member


Reged: 09/01/04
Posts: 3688
Loc: State of Ill-Annoy USA.
Re: Forgotten and lesser known best gun makers [Re: pwm]
      #16557 - 11/07/04 12:49 AM

pwm,

I have always been more fascinated by Mannlichers and someone sent me the URL of Erich Schoder who has started making them again www.eschoder.com

While the site says a lot about the Mannlicher Schonauer action it does not have a photogallery of their products. It would be great if they did.

Anyway, thanks for the continuous information and do keep in touch.



--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

Mehul Kamdar

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