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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Mauser Discussion Forum
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rigbymauser
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Posts: 1972
Loc: Denmark
5.6 x 61 Vom Hofe Super express
      #165145 - 29/07/10 05:49 AM


Looking for a source to heavy .228cal bullets a la 85-100 grain for this caliber.

I have finally found a caliber, for a small custom Mauser project..

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tophet1
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Re: 5.6 x 61 Vom Hofe Super express [Re: rigbymauser]
      #165148 - 29/07/10 08:35 AM

More Blesbok and Springbok on the menu ?

Hornady is all I can think of but is only 70 grains.

http://www.hornady.com/store/.227-22-CAL/

Edited by tophet1 (29/07/10 08:38 AM)

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xausa
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Re: 5.6 x 61 Vom Hofe Super express [Re: tophet1]
      #165154 - 29/07/10 11:13 AM

Sellier & Bellot also make .228" diameter bullets, in both SP and FMJ, but only in 70 grain weight.

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lancaster
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Re: 5.6 x 61 Vom Hofe Super express [Re: xausa]
      #165159 - 29/07/10 12:41 PM

I would go to Wim Degol in Belgium and let make him a bonded core Starkmantel bullet. Johannsen have a 77 grains bullet in the catalog but Wim will also make you a 100 grains bullet
http://www.johannsen-jagd.de/data_de/katalog_en/seiten/seite180e.pdf

classic german high power cartridge

--------------------
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.
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HuntingSchneider
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Re: 5.6 x 61 Vom Hofe Super express [Re: lancaster]
      #165170 - 29/07/10 03:13 PM



Or possibly have somebody make you a swage die to swage down .243 to .228.

I have done this in the past with great success,

--------------------
Liberals, stealing firearms since '96.
Steal one firearm, you're a thief. Steal a million, you're a Prime Minister.

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: 5.6 x 61 Vom Hofe Super express [Re: HuntingSchneider]
      #165184 - 29/07/10 08:59 PM

74 gr Kegelspitz RWS in .224 might work as well.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
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"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
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Rolf
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Re: 5.6 x 61 Vom Hofe Super express [Re: HuntingSchneider]
      #165186 - 29/07/10 09:01 PM

Gentlemen,

I tested the 77grs Degol Starkmantel bullet only for precision and found it very good.
Should be the optimum bullet for this caliber due to the "hard" construction.

The Reichenberg HDB 68grs (?)shot also very good, but does not have the good ballistic coeficient od the Degol.

I also have a supply of the DKT Bullets of USA.
Quality was not good and the lead was very soft, even softer that the RWS SP bullets.
I did not test these, because of the soft construction.

best regards
Rolf

PS: And yes, this is (at least in my expreience)the best caliber to blow up a rifle if you are not reloading with the correct powders.
Even with RWS reloading recipe matched for other bullets (via Quickload) I got an ugly result:
Primer blown and rifle not to open :-(
Please be very, very careful!

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rigbymauser
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Reged: 15/05/05
Posts: 1972
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Re: 5.6 x 61 Vom Hofe Super express [Re: Rolf]
      #165203 - 30/07/10 01:45 AM


Thank guys.

I have thought of many calibers to the next project. I thought first of the .22Newton..then .228 Ackley Magnum...then 226 Barnes QT..then the 6mm Lee Navy..then the Vom Hofe. The Barnes QT still have some fumes left ..but i would eventually have to get my own swaging dies to make up these loooong 125grain .228cal bullets. The Barnes was the .257Roberts that was necked down.

Berger makes some 90grainers in .224cal. Perhaps if I get the barrel in .224cal I`L just have to have chamber-reamer + dies to take the VOM Hofe in .224cal.

The other option could also be the 6.5Barnes QT. 200 grain bullets in .264cal..:LOL.

The barrel on the rifle will be a special 29" barrel tapered octagon.

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Kiwi_bloke
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Re: 5.6 x 61 Vom Hofe Super express [Re: rigbymauser]
      #165236 - 30/07/10 03:43 PM

Most .228" bullets are intended for .22 Savage velocities. For game, the only jacketed lead bullet designed for the 5,6x61 SEvH that I know of in current production is the 77-grain Belgian made Degol which is a close copy of the original "paraboloid" (Zeppelin) shaped factory bullet. It's a bonded (soldered) core bullet and accurate in my Mauser 5,6x61 SEvH. If you can get a supply, why look further ?

This rifle's twist is the standard 1 in 9" and I've been told that longer copper bullets such as the Reichenberg HDB won't stablilize in it. I can't confirm that directly.

The next best choice, (and a lot cheaper), is the Hornady .227" Inter-Lock soft point round. A fellow 5,6 vom Hofe user drives his at 3,536 fps and gets 1" accuracy at 200 yards. He was very impressed at how it put down a white-tail buck and he also shoots coyotes at very long distances. This Hornady bullet is also accurate in my factory rifle.

RWS make a .227/8" round and I find them very accurate. But I wonder just how strong the jacket is as it's made for the much lower velocity Savage round which is still popular in Europe for roe deer & fox.

I don't think I'd use the .224" 74-grain Kegelspitz or any .224" bullet in this larger diameter barrel. However a KS bullet worked just fine on a fallow buck, (a white-tail sized deer) in my .22 caliber 5,6x57 RWS rifle. The amount of internal damage was impressive and it's also accurate at around 3/4" at 100 yards from my factory Anschuetz M.1566.

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Kiwi_bloke
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Re: 5.6 x 61 Vom Hofe Super express [Re: Kiwi_bloke]
      #165237 - 30/07/10 04:20 PM

Regarding the problems Rolf has had with 5,6x61 SEvH, this caliber has a reputation for Secondary Explosion Effect, (S.E.E.). The case is very large for the bore size so it's said to be overbored. Some of the early recommended powders do not seem to have filled the case well. It seems Rottweil R905 is no longer recommended.

Lutz Moeller recommeds, in connection with this cartridge especially, to only choose powders that ideally fill the case 100% (or better still lightly compressed), but never less than to the shoulder base. You shouldn't exceed published data to achieve this, obviously.

S.E.E. causes are not precisely known, but for instance, one theory is that there's a partial combustion and then a short hesitation that releases certain explosive gases; these are then ignited in the secondary explosion. Because these gases release much more energy, the rifle blows. Other complications that can cause this too-weak initial combustion can be using a standard when a magnum primer was specified, or a too weak firing pin spring.

Wild und Hund in 4/1986 stated that new data using Hodgdon H870 cured these early problems. (It says, in part, "Bei diesen Pulversorten wird übrigens eine Ladedichte von 100 Prozent erreicht. Es ergaben sich in dieser Zeit keine Beanstandungen"). However, H870 is now discontinued and it also created certain fouling problems in this caliber for which a Lee Factory Crimp die was only a partial cure for me.

I now only use Hodgdon H4831SC using data from Jeff Munnell's published article in Reloader magazine.

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kamilaroi
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Re: 5.6 x 61 Vom Hofe Super express [Re: Kiwi_bloke]
      #165245 - 30/07/10 07:15 PM

Interesting. IIRC in the mid 80's Nick Harvey hyped it as the ducks guts (but maybe it sank without trace: my 2 cent's worth; a solution in search of a problem)

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Kiwi_bloke
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Re: 5.6 x 61 Vom Hofe Super express [Re: kamilaroi]
      #165330 - 31/07/10 07:28 PM

Do you have a reference to Nick's article ? That could be really interesting.

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grandveneur
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Re: 5.6 x 61 Vom Hofe Super express [Re: Kiwi_bloke]
      #165339 - 01/08/10 12:01 AM

I don't know exactly why, but this cartridge is very dangerous , more dangerous that the using of IMR 3031 for reloading big bore express cartridges ! The last one that i saw was a custom rifle Mauser 98 bolt action all bursted after 3 shots of a factory load from Walter Gehmann ! Luckely no victims !

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rigbymauser
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Re: 5.6 x 61 Vom Hofe Super express [Re: grandveneur]
      #165342 - 01/08/10 02:26 AM

Quote:

I don't know exactly why, but this cartridge is very dangerous , more dangerous that the using of IMR 3031 for reloading big bore express cartridges ! The last one that i saw was a custom rifle Mauser 98 bolt action all bursted after 3 shots of a factory load from Walter Gehmann ! Luckely no victims !



In the meantime , I too have been reading too many stories with this Vom hofe caliber.

I think `LL think of another cartridge in the 6mm range..shooting 115grain bullets @ 3200 ft/sec.

The 6x62 Feres could also be a solution...or a german wildcat 6mmx68..

Edited by rigbymauser (01/08/10 02:30 AM)

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grandveneur
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Re: 5.6 x 61 Vom Hofe Super express [Re: rigbymauser]
      #165345 - 01/08/10 03:21 AM

The 5,6x57 is imo similar and more safe !

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Bramble
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Re: 5.6 x 61 Vom Hofe Super express [Re: rigbymauser]
      #165346 - 01/08/10 03:22 AM

Hi Jens

A hot .243Win Ackley Improved will do that, with none of the problems of brass supply etc.

Regards

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rigbymauser
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Re: 5.6 x 61 Vom Hofe Super express [Re: Bramble]
      #165347 - 01/08/10 03:44 AM

Quote:

Hi Jens

A hot .243Win Ackley Improved will do that, with none of the problems of brass supply etc.

Regards




A good friend of mine has a .22-243( 40 degree) ackley improved. Its a hot cartridge that surpasses the 5.6x57RWS in all bulletweights.

The 5.6x57RWS has a very thick neck, that has always presented a problem for the reloader..very diffecult to resize.

Ok..I have an original Mauser triggerguard for the 10.75x68..bought in germany 3-4 years ago.

I have just bought a nice classic mauserstock + I have sights, old scopebases etc laying around + an original BU marked M98 action from 1934 .

http://www.egun.de/market/item.php?id=2865395

All I need is a barrel, reamer and reloading dies.



The 9.5x66( .375 Westley Richards) Vom Hofe fits perfectly in the old mauser magazine box....a 9,3x64 Brenneke is on top.

My originally idea was to make one of the old type longrifles that had 30-34 inch barrels often in 8x68s or 7x57.

Edited by CptCurl (03/08/10 09:45 AM)

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Bramble
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Re: 5.6 x 61 Vom Hofe Super express [Re: rigbymauser]
      #165350 - 01/08/10 04:43 AM

Well I happen to know of a company in London that has a Shilen 1:8 6mm air gauge match barrel. )You need 1:8 or better for heavy for cal 6mm's to stabilize them)
and they also have a 243 AI reamer in the drawer.
and they have just a few Mauser parts in stock.




Best Regards

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Kiwi_bloke
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Re: 5.6 x 61 Vom Hofe Super express [Re: Bramble]
      #165359 - 01/08/10 08:52 AM

I think the problems with the 5,6x61 SE vom Hofe stem from the early recommeded use of unsuitable powders. By not using these powders now recognized to be outside the proper burning range, by using only newer data and also by using newer types of slow burning powders, (H 870 was an early one but there are even more choices now), these problems seem to have been solved. I used my 5,6x61 SE vom Hofe to shoot 4 feral goats just yesterday.

Regarding 5,6x57RWS, it has a thick neck for a particular reason, but it seems to me that this neck probably also contributes to it's fine accuracy. It's only been a problem to me in that other brass cannot be suitably adapted to fit, even larger cases necked down. I experimented with the expander ball size and, having stepped up a few thou., and this is now one of the most accurate rifles I've owned - and this with a light sporter barrel. It also has the advantage that you can use smaller caliber inserts to fire .22 Hornet and .22 WMR. The Hornet especially is accurate at 100m fired from the 5,6x57 rifle ! This makes this rifle a very good one to train young people on as it's a full sized sporter with low recoil Hornet loads. They can then graduate from those to shoot deer sized 5,6x57 loads without having to get used to a whole new rifle, different trigger, etc.

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kamilaroi
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Re: 5.6 x 61 Vom Hofe Super express [Re: Kiwi_bloke]
      #165364 - 01/08/10 12:04 PM

^ Kiwi, I sent you a PM in reply.

If I had my way I'd use a 257AI and load 75 or 87 grain pills. (as I do)

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kuduae
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Re: 5.6 x 61 Vom Hofe Super express [Re: kamilaroi]
      #165609 - 03/08/10 06:43 AM

Hi, rigbymauser, you will not be able to fit that original 10.75x68 magazine assembly into the Mauser standard size stock, as it is not only wider, but deeper too than the ones used for the standard cartridges like 7x64, 8x57 or the military magazines. The original 9.3x62 and 10.65x68 magazines use a longer trigger and a deeper stock than standard, both of the same proportions as the Magnum action stocks and triggers. It is an ideal size to build a true five-shot short magnum rifle, custom stocked of course. I hope that neither you nor your gunsmith go to the barbaric "solution" of shortening that rare magnum-size mag box to standard dimensions to fit it into a standard size stock.

--------------------
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rigbymauser
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Re: 5.6 x 61 Vom Hofe Super express [Re: kuduae]
      #165705 - 04/08/10 07:42 PM

Quote:

Hi, rigbymauser, you will not be able to fit that original 10.75x68 magazine assembly into the Mauser standard size stock, as it is not only wider, but deeper too than the ones used for the standard cartridges like 7x64, 8x57 or the military magazines. The original 9.3x62 and 10.65x68 magazines use a longer trigger and a deeper stock than standard, both of the same proportions as the Magnum action stocks and triggers. It is an ideal size to build a true five-shot short magnum rifle, custom stocked of course. I hope that neither you nor your gunsmith go to the barbaric "solution" of shortening that rare magnum-size mag box to standard dimensions to fit it into a standard size stock.



I will never ruin either stock or the magazine assembly. IF neither fit, I will find another way.

I may have to order a new magnum magazinebox from Duane Wiebe I have all the time in the world so far for this project to do things right from the beginning.

I hope now "Nitro express" will post the artical given to them regarding the "Longrifle"

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Yochanan
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Re: 5.6 x 61 Vom Hofe Super express [Re: rigbymauser]
      #165731 - 05/08/10 06:31 AM

Jens,
I got that article, shoot me a pm in case you need it.

Why not make a 6mm rem, simple round that wrings out the most of 6mm without being excessive. 6x62 Freres I had for a short while, was easy to let it go after ruining a few roebucks. 115grain Berger vld in 6mm rem will be nice.

Anyone who have tired 90 grain vld in 5.6x61 or 5,6x57?

/Johan

--------------------
© "I have never been able to appreciate 'shock' as applied to killing big game. It seems to me that you cannot kill an elephant weighing six tons by ´shock´unless you advocate the use of a field gun." - W.D.M. Bell: Wanderings of an Elephant Hunter.

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rigbymauser
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Reged: 15/05/05
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Re: 5.6 x 61 Vom Hofe Super express [Re: Yochanan]
      #165766 - 05/08/10 04:28 PM


Hello Johan.

I have the artical...thanks to you:LOL

I have mailed the artical to NitroX, so he can post it on this forum.

I don`t know why it is so difficult to post artical on a forum??. Anybody knows how????

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: 5.6 x 61 Vom Hofe Super express [Re: rigbymauser]
      #165774 - 05/08/10 06:41 PM

Quote:

I hope now "Nitro express" will post the artical given to them regarding the "Longrifle"



Busy at the moment but here it is:

HT Romancing The Long Rifle

2.8Mb PDF

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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