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Urcousinvinny
.224 member

Reged: 31/03/04
Posts: 3

Dbl 9.3x74R or Bolt 458 for DG in close charge?
#16505 - 08/07/04 12:16 PM

I was just wondering which most would choose against DG in a close charge. A 9.3x74R double, which is lighter but gives a quick one two punch, or a bolt 458 Win, which hits harder but you probably will only have time for one shot? And what if your bolt could be even heavier? I think I would feel better with the smaller double. I would prefer having 2 shots, and with the light recoil, the second shot would be easier to place well.

Vinny

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Will
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Reged: 04/02/03
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Re: Dbl 9.3x74R or Bolt 458 for DG in close charge? [Re: Urcousinvinny]
#16551 - 10/07/04 03:56 PM

The proverbial question. The problem is that if you miss the brain or spine, the 9.3 ain't goin' to slow it down much.

A 9.3 double weighs about 8 lbs. but a .470 always weighs about 10, which is way too heavy in my opinion. It is like living in the stone age.

If one could get an 8 lb., fast handling, double in .470, then you would have the ideal buffalo stopper.

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Bill Stewart

Once you have been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun.

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Ingwe
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Re: Dbl 9.3x74R or Bolt 458 for DG in close charge? [Re: Will]
#16561 - 11/07/04 04:44 AM

Hi Will,

Yes, I agree - if I could choose whatever I wanted, I would take a powerful double, but in this hypothetical situation, that's no fair, that's not one of the choices.

You gotta choose between either a weaker double, or a more powerful bolt. I think I would take the weaker double, because, if I miss the brain or spine with the first shot, I would at least get a second chance, and I like second chances!

--------------------

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Will
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Re: Dbl 9.3x74R or Bolt 458 for DG in close charge? [Re: Ingwe]
#16582 - 11/07/04 10:12 PM

I have been playing with a 9.3x62 of late, the twin of the 9.3x74R. Though it is relativly pleasant to shoot, I have no experience with its penetration. I am supposing that it cannot be much different than a .375 H&H, and one hears good results from others use of the 9.3.

From my experience the .458 (.470) has more "shock" effect on a buffalo than a .375, if one can shock a buffalo at all.

All things considered I would go with the 9.3x74R double also.**

I know that a big part of the excitement of hunting dangerous game and specifically hunting buffalo is the possibility of getting tossed, but I really have no desire to experience myself! I bruise easily.

** I do wish that one could get a single trigger 9.3x74R double, though, as my past performance with double triggers has not been, let's say, stellar.

--------------------
_________________________________________________
Bill Stewart

Once you have been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun.

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Ingwe
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Re: Dbl 9.3x74R or Bolt 458 for DG in close charge? [Re: Will]
#16590 - 12/07/04 04:20 AM

Hey Will,

Actually I do have a double 9.3x74R with a single trigger. It is the Valmet 412. The only thing, though, is that it is an O/U, so it's a little slower to reload than a S/S. But I think I would still prefer it over a more powerful bolt in that situation.

--------------------

_________________________________________________

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mickey
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Reged: 05/01/03
Posts: 4647
Loc: Pend Oreille Valley, Idaho

Re: Dbl 9.3x74R or Bolt 458 for DG in close charge? [Re: Will]
#16592 - 12/07/04 05:00 AM

Will

As i read your posts I see you slowly but surely heading back to a Double Rifle. Like RIP, and his conversion away from that heavy and ugly old 416 Rigby to the true King, the 404, I look forward to your total conversion.

As to the trigger thing. If you do not have a double trigger shotty than get one and go shoot some skeet or Sporting Clays with it . You will learn fast to get on the back trigger and have some fun at the same time.

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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Will
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Re: Dbl 9.3x74R or Bolt 458 for DG in close charge? [Re: mickey]
#16613 - 12/07/04 03:20 PM

Back in the old days when lead shot was king, I had a 10 gauge SxS for goose hunting, that would just occasionally double. Maybe those experiences fried my brain or incurred such psychological damage that I cannot master two triggers in an emergency.

Back when I had my .470, for practice I had a Merkel 12 ga. double trigger and I would have the guy throw position 8 low house clays as fast as the trap would reload. Cool, right?

But when the chips were down, all that went out the window. Almost got stepped on once when I discovered that tidbit of information.

It is amazing how fast I can work a bolt-action when really necessary.

P.S.

I am at a loss as to any logical reason for the recent .404 craze, but I hear at least one "factory" is busy.

--------------------
_________________________________________________
Bill Stewart

Once you have been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun.

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4seventy
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Reged: 07/05/03
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Re: Dbl 9.3x74R or Bolt 458 for DG in close charge? [Re: Will]
#16667 - 13/07/04 09:06 PM

In reply to:

If one could get an 8 lb., fast handling, double in .470, then you would have the ideal buffalo stopper.

Shit Will, I've got just the gun for you!

Wait a minute, Ive actually got two!

And one has a single trigger!

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DUGABOY1
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Reged: 02/02/03
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Re: Dbl 9.3x74R or Bolt 458 for DG in close charge? [Re: Urcousinvinny]
#16747 - 15/07/04 06:59 AM

Adhering to your question without any other choice, I would go with the 9.3X74R double rifle, over the 458 Win Mag bolt rifle! Like you I consider the double a better choice, for two quick, aimed, shots! If I might add the use of the 320 Wooliegh steel jacketed solids in the 9.3, would be a plus, added to the plus of being a double!

With that out of the way, my question, to you is, what do you consider "CLOSE RANGE"? If, the charge starts at under 20 yds, then the double still applies, if, however, you consider the close carge starting at 50 yds, then the opinion would change! Then, as much as I love double rifles, I would go with a CRF 458 Win Mag Bolt rifle. This is because at 50 yds, I can, absolutely get three, and maybe four shots out of the bolt rifle on a Buffalo, but at under 20 yds chances are I would only get one from the bolt 458, and deffinetly two from the 9.3 double!

Now, with one more choice, if I could have a 9 lb 450/400NE 3" double, I would can both the others, regardless of the distance!

--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"

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Ingwe
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Re: Dbl 9.3x74R or Bolt 458 for DG in close charge? [Re: DUGABOY1]
#16748 - 15/07/04 08:35 AM

Hi Dugaboy,

By close, I mean a distance such that you would have time for 2 aimed shots with the 9.3 double, but you would NOT have time for 2 shots with the more powerful bolt. So, the actual distance in yards, would not be all that relevant due to some animals being a little faster than others, and also differing terrains. And yes, I would also want 320 gr steel jacketed Woodleighs in the 9.3, preferably flat nosed, but I do not believe such a thing exists.

--------------------

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4seventy
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Re: Dbl 9.3x74R or Bolt 458 for DG in close charge? [Re: Ingwe]
#16751 - 15/07/04 10:32 AM

In reply to:

So, the actual distance in yards, would not be all that relevant due to some animals being a little faster than others, and also differing terrains.

I feel that distance is actually relevent.
How many of you guys are confident of hitting the brain of a charging buff at 40 yards, especially if he is coming at you through scrub and not open ground.
I mean we're talking about offhand shooting under duress a moving target area not much bigger than the butt of a baked beans can!
It's a lot easier to hit at 15 yards than at twice that distance!
Also much would depend on if you are the only shooter or if you are being backed up by a pro.
IMO trying to work a bolt as fast as you can in order to fire the maximum number of shots during a charge is a good way to get into deep trouble. (if you are not being backed up by a competent PH.)
One shot placed as best you can, and another instantly ready in case you need it, is my choice.

The double rifle is made for this type of work and is far more suitable than a bolt gun.
But, the double must fit you perfectly and you must know how to use it properly and also know where it shoots at 10 yards!
Most owners seem to be posessed with getting tiny groups at 50 and 100 yards with their big doubles and would not have the faintest idea where their guns shoot at 10 yards or less!

So even though I love the 458 and have used one quite a bit, my choice would always be the double even if it was only a 9.3 so long as the gun fitted me perfectly and was 100% reliable.

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Will
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Re: Dbl 9.3x74R or Bolt 458 for DG in close charge? [Re: Ingwe]
#16756 - 15/07/04 11:45 AM

Woodleigh does make a 320 gr. solid in 9.3 and have been using them in my CZ 550 9.3x62.

Of course the distance at which a buff might start its charge may be irrelevant as many are in thick cover and may bust out at touching distance! Then it does matter when it is a bolt or double.

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Bill Stewart

Once you have been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun.

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Ingwe
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Posts: 70
Loc: Texas

Re: Dbl 9.3x74R or Bolt 458 for DG in close charge? [Re: Will]
#16758 - 15/07/04 01:29 PM

Hi Will,

Yes, Woodleigh does have a 320 gr solid, but not in a Flat Nose. A shame. That bullet would give outstanding penetration as well as a gaping wound channel. It would combine the best features of the solid and the soft.

And yes, you are also right on about the yardage and the time. The situation that I posed is measuring distance as a funtion of time, NOT YARDS.

That is what I meant when I said that the actual number of yards is not germain to this scenario. You would have only a couple of seconds to shoot. There is just enough time for 2 aimed shots from a double, but only one shot from a bolt. That means it might be X number of yards for a lion in the open, or Y number of yards for a buff in the jess. Either way, the time before the animal impacts your poor body is the same. All other factors are equal, so both rifles fit perfectly, both rifles function flawlessly, both are loaded with excellent bullets for the task at hand - there are no other limiting factors - just time. And you are not being backed up - if you were that would render this crisis into a moot point. You only have a couple seconds and your hide is on the line.. Hmmm...

--------------------

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4seventy
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Re: Dbl 9.3x74R or Bolt 458 for DG in close charge? [Re: Ingwe]
#16760 - 15/07/04 02:22 PM

In reply to:

You would have only a couple of seconds to shoot. There is just enough time for 2 aimed shots from a double, but only one shot from a bolt.

Ok then but my choice is still going to be the double.
The only sure stopping of a buff is the brain or spine shot.
Failure to hit either with the one and only shot from the 458 and the odds are high that you could be in for some serious pain.

The fact that with the double you have a second chance if you place your first shot badly, could be what saves your ass!

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NE450No2
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Reged: 10/01/03
Posts: 942

Re: Dbl 9.3x74R or Bolt 458 for DG in close charge? [Re: 4seventy]
#16813 - 17/07/04 02:05 AM

Without question the 9,3x74R Double rifle.

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NitroX
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Re: Dbl 9.3x74R or Bolt 458 for DG in close charge? [Re: NE450No2]
#17035 - 22/07/04 10:54 PM

I gave some thought to this question today while working.

Firstly, it is unlikely you plan on a "close charge".

If the question was:

You are going hunting cape buffalo. Would you choose a double rifle in 9.3x74mmRimmed or a .458 Win Mag?

Which would you choose?

I know I would choose the .458 Win Mag anyday over a 9.3mm unless I just felt like taking a 9.3mm.

So I have committed sacriledge again, fifth columnist. I would choose a .458 Win Mag with 500 gr FMJs over a 9.3mm.

I think "close" does define "close" - say under 20 yards. How many of us here would get off two well enough aimed shots?

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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4seventy
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Re: Dbl 9.3x74R or Bolt 458 for DG in close charge? [Re: NitroX]
#17059 - 23/07/04 08:59 AM

John,
You have a severe case of bolt action pox!
By the time you get back from your NT hunt with Zander bull.. Zunderblast...Zoolander, you know, whatever that 450 No2 of yours is called, you should feel better and wiser.

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NitroX
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Re: Dbl 9.3x74R or Bolt 458 for DG in close charge? [Re: 4seventy]
#17075 - 23/07/04 10:07 AM

I like to run against the herd.

Makes it more fun.

The Indian gentleman's name is "Zabardast".

(Yes, hopefully the NT will cure the 'pox')

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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Will
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Reged: 04/02/03
Posts: 303
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Re: Dbl 9.3x74R or Bolt 458 for DG in close charge? [Re: NitroX]
#17132 - 24/07/04 11:43 AM

NitroX,

I think if one had the presence of mind it wouldn't make much difference and could make a brain/spine shot that counted. Of course, that is alot easier said than done.

An advantage of a double, if one has an advanced presence of mind, is to fire both barrels simultaneously. It could make a differnce in some circumstances.

Can I see a show of hands of those that could exhibit an advanced presence of mind in a charge?

--------------------
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Bill Stewart

Once you have been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun.

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atkinson6
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Re: Dbl 9.3x74R or Bolt 458 for DG in close charge? [Re: Will]
#17243 - 27/07/04 05:26 AM

Everytime I have stood a charge, the one thing that went through my mind was why don't I carry a bigger gun!! fortunatly I never needed a bigger gun.

Based on that I will take a 458...I love a double in a charge situation up close, but I don't want it to be a 9.3, I want a 470 up...

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4seventy
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Re: Dbl 9.3x74R or Bolt 458 for DG in close charge? [Re: atkinson6]
#17253 - 27/07/04 07:08 AM

I have seen on video, Cape buffalo bulls shot with both 470 and 500 NE where the bullet goes under the brain and has had zero or very little effect toward stopping the animal, despite the large bullet diameter, and big bullet weight and energy.

When I select a rifle to back clients up on Water buff or scrub bull one of my prioritys is to choose an ADEQUATE caliber/cartridge.
Another is to use the most suitable bullet.
IMO 9.3/74 loaded with the right bullets is adequate for this job. Not ideal, but adequate.
Next is to choose a rifle that I KNOW is totally reliable.
But probabally the most important thing is that the rifle must fit me perfectly and I must be familiar with it and shoot it well.

When things get close and nasty I'd rather put a 320gn Woodleigh Solid from a 9.3 double into the bulls brain and maybe have a second chance with my second barrel if I missed the brain with the first, than to put a 500 grain bullet from a 458 a couple of inches low/high or anywhere else and have no second chance!

Selecting a tool to stop a charging bull is very different to selecting a suitable cartridge for general hunting of the same animal IMO.
Anyone who thinks that in a tight situation they can substitute bullet weight, diameter, foot pounds energy and cartridge reputation for good bullet placement, is heading in the wrong direction IMO.

Edited by 4seventy (27/07/04 07:20 AM)

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Will
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Re: Dbl 9.3x74R or Bolt 458 for DG in close charge? [Re: 4seventy]
#17268 - 27/07/04 02:12 PM

Accurate shot placement is going to have the biggest effect on any animal, charging or not. If you slightly miss the brain on a buff it will just as likely as not look at you.

But during a charge I suspect the first reaction is just to shoot it "somewhere". And if somehwere is the biggest spot then it is probably a body shot, and then bullet energy from a 458 is a whole lot bigger and better than from a 9.3.

--------------------
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Bill Stewart

Once you have been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun.

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450Dakota
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Reged: 18/03/04
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Loc: California, USA

Re: Dbl 9.3x74R or Bolt 458 for DG in close charge? [Re: Will]
#17270 - 27/07/04 04:07 PM

Foolish Mortals.... .458 all the way... It is an apple to oranges question, we all agree (well most anyway's) that the 9.3 is the minimum we would hunt buff.. But it's your life...

450Dakota

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ALAN_MCKENZIE
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Re: Dbl 9.3x74R or Bolt 458 for DG in close charge? [Re: 450Dakota]
#17361 - 28/07/04 10:41 PM

Robert RUARK said it all.
"Use enough gun"

However you must be able to handle the rifle and place the bullet in the right place or you are in trouble.
Shot placement is paramount..
Al

--------------------
"Dogs always bark at their master"
Sir Seretse Khama.25th June 1949

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4seventy
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Re: Dbl 9.3x74R or Bolt 458 for DG in close charge? [Re: Will]
#17378 - 29/07/04 08:24 AM

In reply to:

But during a charge I suspect the first reaction is just to shoot it "somewhere".

Hmmmm,
You wanna hope and pray that your PH doesn't apply that strategy!

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