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blackbearhunter
.333 member


Reged: 15/06/04
Posts: 273
Loc: swamp
Merkel Double Grouping Right
      #15824 - 15/06/04 05:17 AM

I have a new Merkel Double in 30-06 thats shooting groups to the right with the left barrel every shot near or faraway everytime.The factory target showed it was tested at factory with the 180gr.rws tug german bullet.All 180gr. ammo i have tried from remington,federal,have shot 5-6inches low.I tried the 165gr in the federal & remington and got within 1-2 in.low.at 35-50 yrds.
But still shoot to the right with my left barrel.I hit 4-6 inches to the right at 100yards.The right barrel is centered ok but 1-2in.low.Is this common for new shooters to the double rifle& I just need to test more kinds of ammo?Do some barrels shoot off side a little?The rifle is new & Iam just trying to get the favorite load for it.Any suggestions on bullet weight or type?Close range 35 yrds shooting 2in.group with 165grtrophy bond.Also iam holding dead on with the factory german square sights.So far shot 100 rounds.Could one barrel favor a different weight american round than the other?Will she shoot like this wild to the right,cause shes not broken in yet?Anyone had one barrel shoot so much different than the other?I got the best group so far with the trophy bonded 165gr. federal load .Would the 220gr ammo shoot even lower & more to the right??Also this is my first post & Iam Glad to be a new member of such a fine group of gentlemen!!!
I have got the double rifle bug fever forever!!!SALUTE!!!


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bonanza
.400 member


Reged: 17/05/04
Posts: 2335
Loc: South Carolina
Re: Merkel Double Grouping Right [Re: blackbearhunter]
      #15825 - 15/06/04 05:36 AM

BlackBearHunter,

I too have a new merkel. I've not tried factory ammo in mine (I reload), but have found that (to my suprise) that the gun shoots lousy or great for a perticular bullet / velocity. Mine was sighted a bit to the left. I tapped the rear sight to fix the windage.

--------------------


"Speak Precisely" G. Gordon Liddy.

"Life is absurd, chaotic and we must define its purpose with our actions" Abert Camus

"I''m the dude playing a dude disguised as another dude."

"Yo! Mr. White"


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blackbearhunter
.333 member


Reged: 15/06/04
Posts: 273
Loc: swamp
Re: Merkel Double Grouping Right [Re: bonanza]
      #15827 - 15/06/04 09:52 AM

Hey bonanza,congrates on your new merkel,I really like mine,i will like it better when i can figure out the left barrel,Do you know if it matters which barrel one fires first?I tried either way but didnt make no differance,she still shot to the right with the left barrel,I wonder at what yardage the barrels cross each other?Iam beginning to wonder if i have a longer range straight shooter on the right & need to shoot the left within 50 yards??Have you ever heard of such?I cant move my rear sight because the right barrel is shooting stright!!
Iam going to have to shoot more differant types of ammo for sure.I really like the way the double handles & comes up & shoots those 2 barrels so fast,I guess since I have 2 barrels i will have to tweek that left one ,but never heard of ammo making a windage adjustment?Can That Happen?
I had a super grade winchester one time that would shoot silver tips all over the place but was super accurate with the federal premium loads & Hornadys.I know i dont want to try to find german ammo in georgia.I wish it had been regulated with USA AMMO!!!Problems,Problems,The wide group was consistant though...


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4seventy
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Reged: 07/05/03
Posts: 2210
Loc: Queensland Australia
Re: Merkel Double Grouping Right [Re: blackbearhunter]
      #15829 - 15/06/04 10:29 AM

Welcome blackbearhunter.
The truth is that your double is crossing its shots and BOTH barrels are crossing the line of sight, not just the left one!
The reason that the right barrel is shooting close to point of aim is that the sight/s have been aligned that way.
If you draw a line between the holes in your target for shots fired from both barrels then cut the line in half, that is (approx) where the sight should be set.
If the line was say for example 4 inches between the two barrel groups, and you cut the line in half with another mark, this would show that the groups are crossing the line of sight by 2 inches each.
If you are shooting reloads you may be able to bring the groups together by reducing the powder charge and the velocity slightly and this may also raise the point of impact slightly as well.
Once the two individual barrel groups come together you can re adjust the sighting to align with the composite group.

Do yourself a big favour and buy a copy of "Shooting The British Double Rifle" by Graeme Wright as this book explains the details on the whys and howto's of getting doubles to shoot correctly.
Hope this helps.



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blackbearhunter
.333 member


Reged: 15/06/04
Posts: 273
Loc: swamp
Re: Merkel Double Grouping Right [Re: 4seventy]
      #15830 - 15/06/04 11:08 AM

Thanks 4seventy,I may have to start back reloading.The ammo i have shot so far has been all factory.The rounds are faster than the rifle was regulated with,Could a heavier round in the left barrel or slower powder charge bring it back?The right side i can live with.Elevation is fine on left barrel,I can see how reloading is for the double rifle!!!!
My gun being a 30-06,I have a lot more factory loads to choose & test from than the big bores have available.Does anyone know about how much a nice old timey classic express sight that is adjustable might cost to install on a merkel?Who would do that kind of work?Merkel Factory?Has anyone ever seen a Nice classic express type sight on a merkel?The square,partridge,I call german type,sight is the only one i have ever seen?I hate to go banging on the sight i have now,but may have to.I dont want to scope.....
I will get the book & read it....I have learned alot from all here & laughed my A.. : off a few times too,Great FUN!!!!


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bonanza
.400 member


Reged: 17/05/04
Posts: 2335
Loc: South Carolina
Re: Merkel Double Grouping Right [Re: blackbearhunter]
      #15831 - 15/06/04 12:27 PM

1. Buy the book, I need to also.
2. Reload, because you'll need to work up some low pressure loads. Hodgdon lists CUP for their loads. Here is an example of how wide the pressures can vary, and thus, you can take advantage of it: 180 Sierra with H4831 - 44,300 cup 2710 fps and Varget 50,000 cup 2668 fps. WOW 11% lower pressure and 42 fps faster. Of course these are max loads and therefor you should load 10% lower. I do this with my .375 H&H and am in the 40,000 to 45,000 cup range for all bullets weights. Still well bellow the factory loads of 50,000 + cup.
3. Don't fuck with your rifle. You will be able to sell it for what you paid. Except light aircraft, I've never seen anything you use and still get what you paid.
3. Be paitient, Experiment, keep maticuless (sp) records, and have fun!

--------------------


"Speak Precisely" G. Gordon Liddy.

"Life is absurd, chaotic and we must define its purpose with our actions" Abert Camus

"I''m the dude playing a dude disguised as another dude."

"Yo! Mr. White"


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bonanza
.400 member


Reged: 17/05/04
Posts: 2335
Loc: South Carolina
Re: Merkel Double Grouping Right [Re: bonanza]
      #15832 - 15/06/04 12:40 PM

Where are located? I'm in Fort Mill, SC - just south of Charlotte and only 2.5 hours from Greenville. I belong to the Charlotte Rifle and Pistol club. We've got little double rifle group that get's together to shoot. We also have an active vintagers group. Those guys sink german sports car kind of money into their shotguns! But the guy who takes the cake is a real piece of work. Drives a 15 year old van with 300k miles, but ownes: 340, 416, 460 Weatherby (sp) 470 Nitro Merkel and a McMillan 50BMG! Says he wants a .600 nitro! I've shot them all except the 460 - no way dude. I like my eyes.

--------------------


"Speak Precisely" G. Gordon Liddy.

"Life is absurd, chaotic and we must define its purpose with our actions" Abert Camus

"I''m the dude playing a dude disguised as another dude."

"Yo! Mr. White"


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4seventy
Sponsor


Reged: 07/05/03
Posts: 2210
Loc: Queensland Australia
Re: Merkel Double Grouping Right [Re: blackbearhunter]
      #15834 - 15/06/04 02:24 PM

In reply to:

Could a heavier round in the left barrel or slower powder charge bring it back?The right side i can live with.Elevation is fine on left barrel,I can see how reloading is for the double rifle!!!!




blackbearhunter,
Forget about using a different load for each barrel as it is a pain in the butt and sooner or later you'll most likely get the right load in the wrong barrel.

With your rifle, each barrel is shooting to a different (crossed) point of impact and the sights have been adjusted to be aligned with one of these groups.
What you need to do is to try and bring the groups together (using identical loads in each barrel) and when there is just one composite group from both barrels you can then worry about aligning the sights with the POI if necessary.

You can try other brands of factory ammo and also try different bullet weights and styles in the factory stuff.

There are MANY things that can influence where each barrel puts its group on the target but there are three things that often affect or change the grouping in a double and they are...
Bullet Speed
Bullet Weight
Bullet Type (shape and composition etc)

These things are the easiest to alter in an attempt to bring the groups together.

Reloading may be your only option if a suitable factory cartridge cannot be found.
But reloading for doubles adds to the enjoyment IMO!

Don't worry, you'll get it sorted!
Best of luck and like bonanza said, have fun while your doing it!



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blackbearhunter
.333 member


Reged: 15/06/04
Posts: 273
Loc: swamp
Re: Merkel Double Grouping Right [Re: bonanza]
      #15854 - 16/06/04 07:51 AM

Hey bonanza,I live close to the cohutta wilderness area & The beginning of the applachian trail at amicalola state park.Sounds like you guys have fun in your club.I like the fellow you said drives the old van & shoots the nice rifles!Hes got the right idea!!Everybody got to love something & I believe he loves his Shooting Irons!!!
I can relate to that!Normal folks dont think anything about a bass fisherman spending tons of money on a boat &Truck to pull it to the lakebut think gun heads are crazy for spending some of the big money on shotguns&rifles!!!
Everybody just dont understand quality equipment & pride in ownership &You get what you pay for &Classic they dont make em like this anymore workmanship.Some of the high end guns are like works of art to shooters who appreciate & understand firearms.4seventy made me feel better when he said dont worry Ill get it shooting right,I feel more confident now I will win the war with the rifle. I was thinking about the way a rifle recoils throws the shot also& I know my merkel without a recoil pad kicks good.If i put a pad on it ,it should tame it some.It dont kick like a big bore but for a 30-06 it kicks.If i put a pad on it would it reduce the value?What kind of pad would go with a merkel double rifle?Red holland& holland?Or a black like on the ruger express?Just never seen a pad on a merkel double,could recoil affect the shot that much??Anyway thanks doubleriflebrothers for all your help,Ill keep everybody posted on how it works out


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DUGABOY1
.400 member


Reged: 02/02/03
Posts: 1340
Loc: TEXAS USA
Re: Merkel Double Grouping Right [Re: blackbearhunter]
      #15877 - 17/06/04 05:31 AM

In reply to:

I have a new Merkel Double in 30-06 thats shooting groups to the right with the left barrel every shot near or faraway everytime.The factory target showed it was tested at factory with the 180gr.rws tug german bullet.All 180gr. ammo i have tried from remington,federal,have shot 5-6inches low.I tried the 165gr in the federal & remington and got within 1-2 in.low.at 35-50 yrds.
But still shoot to the right with my left barrel.I hit 4-6 inches to the right at 100yards.The right barrel is centered ok but 1-2in.low.Is this common for new shooters to the double rifle&




First off how are you resting the rifle to group it off the bench? If you are letting the rifle rest on the sand bag, on either end, you are doing it wrong! A double rifle should never touch anything but your left hand, right hand, and your face, and shoulder when being fired. These rifles are designed to be fired off hand. It is OK to rest your hand on the sand bag, but hold the foreend the same way you would if shooting off hand. Do not rest the butt of the rifle on a sand bag either, Try to sit as streight up as if you were standing to shoot. A double rifle must absolutely be allowed to recoil in a natural manner, if it touches anything but the shooter, it will not regulate properly.

Now that you have the proper way to hold the rifle for shooting, the fact that the barrels are crossing, the left barrel shooting on the right, and low, and the right barrel shooting on the left , and low indicates the velocity is too high. It is not getting enough barrel time (bullet not staying in the barrel long enough durring the recoil arc)

If you take the barrel set off your Merkel, and place two empty cases in the chambers, with no primers. Lock the barrels in a padded vise by the lumps under the chambers, with the front of the barrels supported so that the sights are pointing at an aiming point @ 100 yds. Now look through the primer holes of the empty cases in the chambers. you will see the RIGHT barrel will be looking at a point that is LOW , and on the LEFT of the point of aim on the sights, and VICE-VERSA for the left barrel. When the rifle fires, the RIGHT barrel will recoil UP , and to the RIGHT, so if the right barrel is shooting on the left it isn't staying in the barrel long enough, so is too fast, the same but opposite is true of the laft barrel shooting low, and on the right. The speed needs decreasing.

What you need to do is shoot 3 rounds from the right barrel, then holding the same target picture fire 3 rounds with the left barrel. Now measure the distance from the center of the left barrel group to the center of the right barrel group. Half way between the centers of these two groups is where the rifle is actually pointing, regardless of where the sights show you to be pointing. If that center measurement is on the left of the aiming point on the target,the rear sight needs to move slightly to the left, till the center of each group is an equal distance from the aiming point. Don't move the sight very much, a little goes a long way.

Actually, what you need do is get the two groups shooting at the same place, by adjusting your load, regardless where it is hitting the target. Once you get the proper speed with the bullet you intend useing, the two groups will make a composit group, by fireing six shots three from the right barrel, and three from the left barrel. These six shots should be fired in the order of rt, lft,rt, lft, rt, lft. Now that you have the composit group of both barrels, you can adjust the sights to the exact center of the group! You will have to hand load for a double rifle, if you are to have any hope of makeing it shoot to regulation, and once you get the proper load, use nothing else, no matter what you hunt with the rifle. With your 30-06 a good load with you 180 that developes about 2450 fps, will likely be the one that will regulate. There is no need to find a low pressure load for this rifle/cartridge combination, as long as you stay within the 2450 to 2550 fps, the pressure will takee care of it's self!

I strongly suggest you get the Graeme Wright book, and read it cover to cover, then read it again for understanding. It will not likely have anything in it about the 30-06, but the manchanics are the same for regulateing any cartridge in any S/S double rifle. You may as well set up to hand load now, before you go any further, because factory is of no use to the man shooting a double rifle, chambered for a cartridge that was not designed to be shot in a double rifle. All those different bullet weights, and shapes will do you no good. A double rifle is designed to shoot a particular load to a given point, change that load and she will show you she doesn't like it, by shooting all over the map.


--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"


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bonanza
.400 member


Reged: 17/05/04
Posts: 2335
Loc: South Carolina
Re: Merkel Double Grouping Right [Re: DUGABOY1]
      #15880 - 17/06/04 06:28 AM

Wow, what a post. I've order "the book", eagerly waiting. But, now I understand why my lighter loads where shooting high.

--------------------


"Speak Precisely" G. Gordon Liddy.

"Life is absurd, chaotic and we must define its purpose with our actions" Abert Camus

"I''m the dude playing a dude disguised as another dude."

"Yo! Mr. White"


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blackbearhunter
.333 member


Reged: 15/06/04
Posts: 273
Loc: swamp
Re: Merkel Double Grouping Right [Re: DUGABOY1]
      #15881 - 17/06/04 06:33 AM

Hey dugaboy1,I agree with what you say.I looked up the factory loads I was shooting & they were 2700-2800fps.A couple shot like they were hotter than that!!!
I see what your telling me & i will reload for the rifle.Since the factory used 180gr.tug,will 180gr.nosler or Hornady be my first test?Round nose or pointed?What would you suggest?Just try & see???
I had shot it off bench without touching anything & also off hand & sitting,she grouped great but was bad to the right.....
I feel i will find her load & iam going to get the book for sure!!!!
It is great fun!!!!!
Do you think the nickle cases are good for reloads or should i stay away from nickles?
I wish i knew what the speed is on a rws tug 180gr.?
Anyone have any idea,i would guess it would be a factory loaded round???
What is the correct way to sight those square rear notch sights?Dead on tip stright across top of rearor 6.00 bottom of bulls eye?I have been holding the front tip even with the rear top????Putting fronttiptop where i want bullet to hit....Trying to get use to the sight picture,Sure not like a rem or ruger!!!


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bonanza
.400 member


Reged: 17/05/04
Posts: 2335
Loc: South Carolina
Re: Merkel Double Grouping Right [Re: blackbearhunter]
      #15882 - 17/06/04 06:38 AM

I like it better than my ruger or rem. I've been lining the top of the post with the top of the rear sight and putting the top of the post where I want to put the bullet. I don't think the 6:00 hold works. I'm goint to put a little white-out on the post make it more visible.

--------------------


"Speak Precisely" G. Gordon Liddy.

"Life is absurd, chaotic and we must define its purpose with our actions" Abert Camus

"I''m the dude playing a dude disguised as another dude."

"Yo! Mr. White"


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blackbearhunter
.333 member


Reged: 15/06/04
Posts: 273
Loc: swamp
Re: Merkel Double Grouping Right [Re: blackbearhunter]
      #15883 - 17/06/04 06:46 AM

Hey i forgot to ask about powder ?I use to reload imr 4831 in the 30-06 for a bolt rifle years ago when i hog hunted all the time.Will i have to expermint with all the different powders also?Any suggestions on powders for my first projects?THANKS A BUNCH FOR EVERYONES HELP!!!
This has been a Real learning experience!!!
Guess you gotta crawl for ya can walk!!!


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blackbearhunter
.333 member


Reged: 15/06/04
Posts: 273
Loc: swamp
Re: Merkel Double Grouping Right [Re: blackbearhunter]
      #15916 - 18/06/04 01:16 AM

I talked to the Merkel gunsmith today & he confirmed all we have discussed on the forum about double rifles being differant to get to shoot proper than other rifles.He said if i can get my double to shoot a load together but still low i can file my front sight down.Reloading will be the way to go,& that it will always want to shoot the way it was regulated at the factory with the 180gr,Tug.I should always shoot front trigger,right barrel first,rear trigger left barrelwith in 7seconds last.He said i should stay with the 180gr,weight bullets & try 220gr.if i keep getting low shots with the 180grs. bullets....
Merkel can install a recoil pad for me also if needed...


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DUGABOY1
.400 member


Reged: 02/02/03
Posts: 1340
Loc: TEXAS USA
Re: Merkel Double Grouping Right [Re: blackbearhunter]
      #15925 - 18/06/04 03:55 AM

In reply to:

Hey i forgot to ask about powder ?I use to reload imr 4831 in the 30-06 for a bolt rifle years ago when i hog hunted all the time.Will i have to expermint with all the different powders also?Any suggestions on powders for my first projects?THANKS A BUNCH FOR EVERYONES HELP!!!
This has been a Real learning experience!!!
Guess you gotta crawl for ya can walk!!!





I would use the 180 gr Nosler Partition, in front of a starting load of 43.0 grs IMR 4064, and work up to around 45.0 grs as my MAX. This sin't the max you will find in load books,those loads were designed for bolt action rifles, or test barrels, not double rifles. This MAX load will generate about 2480 fps., and I would be very careful going higher than the 45.0 gr load. This is a very nice load for double rifles, if your rifle will shoot it, and it will take any Moose that ever lived quite nicely. The 180 gr Nosler Partition will expand fast enough to work fine on small deer, yet hold on to enough weight to pennetrate deaply on animals like Moose, or bear. I like the protected point version of the NP

The nickel plated cases are fine for re-loading, and work through the chambers of a little Merkel double rifle like quicksilver! I wish I could get nickel plated cases for all the Nitro Express cartridges I load for!

--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"


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bonanza
.400 member


Reged: 17/05/04
Posts: 2335
Loc: South Carolina
Re: Merkel Double Grouping Right [Re: DUGABOY1]
      #15926 - 18/06/04 05:12 AM

I'm shooting the 375 H&H in my merkel (as you know by now) and was wondering about the nickel plated cases. Is there less propencity for sticking, or is the nickel just a harder surface?

--------------------


"Speak Precisely" G. Gordon Liddy.

"Life is absurd, chaotic and we must define its purpose with our actions" Abert Camus

"I''m the dude playing a dude disguised as another dude."

"Yo! Mr. White"


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DUGABOY1
.400 member


Reged: 02/02/03
Posts: 1340
Loc: TEXAS USA
Re: Merkel Double Grouping Right [Re: bonanza]
      #15947 - 19/06/04 12:51 AM

Bonanza , I like nickel plated cases for enything, and yes they are less prone to sticking in the chambers! The 375 H&H nickel plated rounds are what I use in my bolt rifles in Alaska's incessant rain. A non plated brass will, many times, stick in the chamber of a rifle, so tight that it is almost imposible to open the bolt. The corrosion builds fast when water seeps into the chamber. I have a friend who uses a SAKO pushfeed 375 H&H, useing un-plated brass, and his rifle went out of service with a stuck bolt, after hunting in the rain for about 15 hours. the bolt was too tight, and with the added sticky case, we couldn't open the rifle. My old FN Mauser, with the plated cases, worked like it had been soaked with oil, instead of rain!

I load for several double rifles,some with pretty large brass, and I wish someone would start makeing nickel plated brass for some of them.

--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"


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bonanza
.400 member


Reged: 17/05/04
Posts: 2335
Loc: South Carolina
Re: Merkel Double Grouping Right [Re: blackbearhunter]
      #16113 - 23/06/04 03:51 AM

Found this on the internet - might help your load development.

Kaliber Projektil Vægt Løb Tryk Vo V50 V100 V200 DOA 50m 100m 200m
------- ------- ----- ---- ----- ------ ---- ---- ---- ---- --- ---- ----
30-06 TUG 11,7 600 3500 840 790 745 665 165 +1,5 +4,0 - 5,0

I did the conversion to get 180 grain bullet at 2520 fps.

--------------------


"Speak Precisely" G. Gordon Liddy.

"Life is absurd, chaotic and we must define its purpose with our actions" Abert Camus

"I''m the dude playing a dude disguised as another dude."

"Yo! Mr. White"


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blackbearhunter
.333 member


Reged: 15/06/04
Posts: 273
Loc: swamp
Re: Merkel Double Grouping Right [Re: bonanza]
      #16467 - 07/07/04 08:05 AM

Tried PMC 180gr.seirra boatails today 2700fps.They shot great.Left barrel & right barrel fired to point of aim,Tight group centered!Going to stick with these for factory ammo!It pays to try different ammo!!!Merkel is ready for hunt!
Thanks for all the help!Big differance in groups from other brands!Anyone ever try PMC ammo?


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