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AFRO408
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450-400 Jeffery in a Martini?
      #163459 - 06/07/10 08:33 AM

Has anybody seen or heard of a Martini Henry rifle chambered in 450-400 3" Jeffery?
I've been searching the net and can't find anything.
I'm concerned that the cartridge may be too long to chamber easily. Is this the case?

Afro

--------------------
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TilleyMan
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Re: 450-400 Jeffery in a Martini? [Re: AFRO408]
      #163469 - 06/07/10 12:32 PM

Never seen or heard of one either... largest I've seen is a .45/70 down at Whitehorse Arms...

I'd be much more concerned about the Martini Henry's action strength over whether a 450-400 round would fit... despite its impressive size, the action is after all made with ~100 year old steels (and emerging knowledge of materials science and heat treating) for the low pressure .577/450 black powder cartridge

A 450-400 Jeffey based on a Ruger No 1 would leave a much greater safety margin IMO and be able to get the most out of the cartridge...


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DarylS
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Re: 450-400 Jeffery in a Martini? [Re: TilleyMan]
      #163533 - 07/07/10 03:29 AM

The action will most certianly 'handle' it, but I think it's too short for that particular round.

The large Martini has very successfully been re-barreled (fast twist) and chambered to the .444 Marlin, and operating at close to 50,000PSI+. The ballistics I remember from the 70's era Gun Digest were 400gr. in the 1,950fps range - from that shorted, straightened out, rimmed '06 case.

Would I do that - possibly - but shows the normal .450/400 is well below the working range of the action.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: 450-400 Jeffery in a Martini? [Re: DarylS]
      #163542 - 07/07/10 04:06 AM

I wonder if a .375 2 1/2" Nitro Express would work?

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
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AFRO408
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Re: 450-400 Jeffery in a Martini? [Re: NitroX]
      #163570 - 07/07/10 10:45 AM

.375x2 1/2" would probably work ok, but I have a .410 barrel so I want to use that.
I already have one in .303 and would like a bigger brother for it.

The 450-400 3" was rated at 16 tons ( 35,840 lb ) /sq ", so I'm not worried about the pressure or the strength of the action, I intend to shoot cast bullets from it anyway.

Looks like I'll have to make a dummy barrel shank and see if the round will feed easily.

--------------------
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DoubleD
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Re: 450-400 Jeffery in a Martini? [Re: AFRO408]
      #163571 - 07/07/10 11:12 AM

The .375 x 2 1/2 works quite well in the Martini...I have one

CIP says the 450/400 N.E. 3" is a 2800 bar cartridge, that's over 40,000 psi, not something I would feed as a steady diet to 100 year+ rifle, even a Martini.

The 450/400 is a BN so it might feed, but it's not a cartridge I would shot in a Martini.

--------------------
DD, Ret.


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AFRO408
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Re: 450-400 Jeffery in a Martini? [Re: DoubleD]
      #163595 - 07/07/10 05:50 PM

Looks like I'll be going for the 450-400, 2 3/8".
Bertram make the brass and it should fit nicely.
The same thing ( 10.3 x 60 R ) is still loaded and used in Switzerland.

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CHAPUISARMES
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Re: 450-400 Jeffery in a Martini? [Re: AFRO408]
      #163597 - 07/07/10 07:33 PM

Hi Tony,

Until I started to look your selection, I did not know that there are four variations to the 450/400. The one that you have selected is the smallest of the four. Ammoguide.com has no information on it which I guess is not unusual for the age of the caliber.

Cheers for now,

Jeff Gray


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AFRO408
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Re: 450-400 Jeffery in a Martini? [Re: CHAPUISARMES]
      #163605 - 07/07/10 08:27 PM

Hi Jeff,

My Cartridges of the World, #9, lists the three versions as Black, Nitro for Black, and Nitro, all in the same cartridge, with bullet weights from 210-270g in the Black load, to 400g jacketed in the Nitro load.

I think that a 350-400g gas check lead bullet, at 1600-1700fps, would be a peach.

Tony

--------------------
Flinch ? Wot flinch ? Gunsmithing is my PASSION.


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CHAPUISARMES
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Re: 450-400 Jeffery in a Martini? [Re: AFRO408]
      #163612 - 07/07/10 09:05 PM


Hi Tony,

I meant the case size, 2 vastly different and 2 with rim thickness. The load you have selected will be a "Pussy Cat" to shoot. I will look into my old books to see what I can find for you.

Cheers,

Jeff Gray


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CHAPUISARMES
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Re: 450-400 Jeffery in a Martini? [Re: CHAPUISARMES]
      #163619 - 07/07/10 09:43 PM

Hi Tony,

In the earlier 7th edition, it shows 2 loads for the 10.3x60R,

235 SP RL-15 66.0gn MV 2432 ME 3324 RWS info
330 SP FL MV 2070 ME 3143

Same book but under the 450/400 BPE 2 3/8” & 450/400 Nitro for BP

230 Lead FL 1750 1563 Smokeless Factory Load
270 Lead FL 1650 1640

Just had a thought, if your busy for 4 months, how can you build this one.... Just Joking

Cheers,

Jeff Gray


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DarylS
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Re: 450-400 Jeffery in a Martini? [Re: DoubleD]
      #163623 - 07/07/10 11:07 PM

Quote:

The .375 x 2 1/2 works quite well in the Martini...I have one

CIP says the 450/400 N.E. 3" is a 2800 bar cartridge, that's over 40,000 psi, not something I would feed as a steady diet to 100 year+ rifle, even a Martini.

The 450/400 is a BN so it might feed, but it's not a cartridge I would shot in a Martini.




I really don't think there is a problem.
40,000PSI is well under a .303 British's 44,000CUP which is over 50,000PSI. Anyone shooting a Lee Speed or M98, model 88 or M93's through 96's with factory Norma 6.5x55mm through 8mm Mauser? Those are all over 50,000PSI. Note there is a big difference between CIP's PSI which almost matches CIP and CUP and the US # derived by tranducer.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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DoubleD
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Re: 450-400 Jeffery in a Martini? [Re: DarylS]
      #163630 - 08/07/10 12:30 AM

Quote:

Quote:

The .375 x 2 1/2 works quite well in the Martini...I have one

CIP says the 450/400 N.E. 3" is a 2800 bar cartridge, that's over 40,000 psi, not something I would feed as a steady diet to 100 year+ rifle, even a Martini.

The 450/400 is a BN so it might feed, but it's not a cartridge I would shot in a Martini.




I really don't think there is a problem.
40,000PSI is well under a .303 British's 44,000CUP which is over 50,000PSI. Anyone shooting a Lee Speed or M98, model 88 or M93's through 96's with factory Norma 6.5x55mm through 8mm Mauser? Those are all over 50,000PSI. Note there is a big difference between CIP's PSI which almost matches CIP and CUP and the US # derived by tranducer.




But there are more square inches in 450/400 chamber than in a .303 chamber.

--------------------
DD, Ret.


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AFRO408
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Re: 450-400 Jeffery in a Martini? [Re: CHAPUISARMES]
      #163661 - 08/07/10 03:55 PM

Quote:

Hi Tony,

In the earlier 7th edition, it shows 2 loads for the 10.3x60R,

235 SP RL-15 66.0gn MV 2432 ME 3324 RWS info
330 SP FL MV 2070 ME 3143

Same book but under the 450/400 BPE 2 3/8” & 450/400 Nitro for BP

230 Lead FL 1750 1563 Smokeless Factory Load
270 Lead FL 1650 1640

Just had a thought, if your busy for 4 months, how can you build this one.... Just Joking

Cheers,

Jeff Gray




Hey Jeff,

Thanks for those loads. Should be good medicine on pigs and such.

Well........if I book my job in now, I'll get to do it in 4 months time, give me time to get cases, make the reamer and sizing die.......

Cheers

Tony

--------------------
Flinch ? Wot flinch ? Gunsmithing is my PASSION.


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AFRO408
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Re: 450-400 Jeffery in a Martini? [Re: AFRO408]
      #180026 - 26/04/11 08:30 PM

Hi folks,
It's been a while since I asked the first question and the rifle is slowly coming together now.
I've test fired the barrel and tried to fire form the cases. It's chambered in 450-400 2 3/8"
I soldered the sights to the barrel today and will soon see if it will shoot.





These sights were cleaned up and recycled from an old Parker Hale rifle. I only wanted one fixed sight and this will suit very well. The front sight will probably end up as a silver blade, but we'll see.

Cheers,
Tony

--------------------
Flinch ? Wot flinch ? Gunsmithing is my PASSION.

Edited by CptCurl (12/05/11 09:31 PM)


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FATBOY404
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Re: 450-400 Jeffery in a Martini? [Re: AFRO408]
      #180027 - 26/04/11 08:35 PM

Good to see some "Tony time" mate. Looks good.

More photo's please of the bullet and the build.

--------------------
"WHATEVER BLOWS YOUR HAIR BACK"


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eljefedouble
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Re: 450-400 Jeffery in a Martini? [Re: FATBOY404]
      #180034 - 26/04/11 10:13 PM

That checkering on front sight ramp is nice, Tony.Yup, keep us posted

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DoubleD
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Re: 450-400 Jeffery in a Martini? [Re: eljefedouble]
      #180037 - 26/04/11 11:09 PM

Glad to see you progressing on this project. It sounds like you had no issues with getting the cartridge to turn the corner and go in the chamber...great.

--------------------
DD, Ret.


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AFRO408
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Re: 450-400 Jeffery in a Martini? [Re: DoubleD]
      #180071 - 27/04/11 08:07 AM

YES! It fits perfectly
Near enough to being the same length as the 577-450 original.

Projectile is from an RCBS mould 311g, .411dia, plain base, cast from wheel weight alloy, 50/50 beeswax/superfry lube.

A bit of info on the history of the action.



It was issued to the Vic Police, according to the stamp on the butt, if it's the original.

Tony

--------------------
Flinch ? Wot flinch ? Gunsmithing is my PASSION.

Edited by CptCurl (12/05/11 09:31 PM)


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AFRO408
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Re: 450-400 Jeffery in a Martini? [Re: TilleyMan]
      #180105 - 27/04/11 06:00 PM

Quote:

Never seen or heard of one either... largest I've seen is a .45/70 down at Whitehorse Arms...

I'd be much more concerned about the Martini Henry's action strength over whether a 450-400 round would fit... despite its impressive size, the action is after all made with ~100 year old steels (and emerging knowledge of materials science and heat treating) for the low pressure .577/450 black powder cartridge

A 450-400 Jeffey based on a Ruger No 1 would leave a much greater safety margin IMO and be able to get the most out of the cartridge...




Yeah but it's a bloody Yank rifle with bloody slooooow lock time and if you'r hunting with gloves on, it's so easy to accidentally unlatch the lever and when the thing's cocked, the block just drops down silently. You may as well carry an empty rifle! This from personal experience.

Cheers,
Tony

--------------------
Flinch ? Wot flinch ? Gunsmithing is my PASSION.


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AFRO408
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Re: 450-400 Jeffery in a Martini? [Re: DarylS]
      #180107 - 27/04/11 06:20 PM

Quote:

Quote:

The .375 x 2 1/2 works quite well in the Martini...I have one

CIP says the 450/400 N.E. 3" is a 2800 bar cartridge, that's over 40,000 psi, not something I would feed as a steady diet to 100 year+ rifle, even a Martini.

The 450/400 is a BN so it might feed, but it's not a cartridge I would shot in a Martini.




I really don't think there is a problem.
40,000PSI is well under a .303 British's 44,000CUP which is over 50,000PSI. Anyone shooting a Lee Speed or M98, model 88 or M93's through 96's with factory Norma 6.5x55mm through 8mm Mauser? Those are all over 50,000PSI. Note there is a big difference between CIP's PSI which almost matches CIP and CUP and the US # derived by tranducer.




..... and Daryl, they were shooting the old Cordite .303 rounds in some bloody hot places around the world and they must have been producing nearly Proof loads!!

Tony

--------------------
Flinch ? Wot flinch ? Gunsmithing is my PASSION.


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AFRO408
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Re: 450-400 Jeffery in a Martini? [Re: AFRO408]
      #183000 - 02/06/11 04:16 PM

A bit of an update on the project.
It's something I've been wanting to do for a long time and that is make a takedown rifle.
Been burning the candle at both ends trying to get the prototype ready for this weekend at Dalby.

The Matini action already has a recess at the front of the action, so I thought I would use that to lock it.
First a block had to be machined to fit the barrel shank and take the sliding dovetailed tongue.


I next fitted a lever that would unlock the tongue and also give me some leverage for tightening and loosening the barrel. Both the tongue and lever are case hardened. The pins are made from music wire.


Once the mechanism was working well, I screwed and soldered the lock block to the barrel shank.


I'm using the old wood to prove the concept, so the next job was to fit the forearm over the block and fit the finger recess, which also holds the forearm onto the barrel. When I make the real stock, I will put a bolt through the forearm just in front of the lock, to stop the wood from splitting.




I've got 40 rounds loaded for the shoot and we will see how it goes. It had better work as I'll have lots of witnesses.

--------------------
Flinch ? Wot flinch ? Gunsmithing is my PASSION.

Edited by CptCurl (05/06/11 10:19 PM)


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CHAPUISARMES
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Re: 450-400 Jeffery in a Martini? [Re: AFRO408]
      #183002 - 02/06/11 04:51 PM

Hi Tony,

Very nice and a good idea, just think of all those Martini's out there awaiting this conversion... Bloody Great Idea.

Cheers,

Jeff Gray

.


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lancaster
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Re: 450-400 Jeffery in a Martini? [Re: CHAPUISARMES]
      #183006 - 02/06/11 05:30 PM

bloody nice take down

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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FATBOY404
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Re: 450-400 Jeffery in a Martini? [Re: lancaster]
      #183007 - 02/06/11 06:41 PM

You gunsmiths cant leave "well enough alone" can you ?.

Neat idea and good work mate.

--------------------
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AFRO408
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Re: 450-400 Jeffery in a Martini? [Re: CHAPUISARMES]
      #183011 - 02/06/11 06:56 PM

G'day Jeff,
It's been a long time fermenting, but I finally got it out of my system.
I've got to get some nice Walnut now to finish it off.

Lancaster, thank you.

--------------------
Flinch ? Wot flinch ? Gunsmithing is my PASSION.


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450_Ackley
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Re: 450-400 Jeffery in a Martini? [Re: AFRO408]
      #183013 - 02/06/11 07:18 PM

Very nice Tony, can't wait to see it this weekend.

DC


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DarylS
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Re: 450-400 Jeffery in a Martini? [Re: FATBOY404]
      #183023 - 03/06/11 12:10 AM

That is beautifully executed, Tony. I love looking at fine workmanship - can dream of doing it myself.

As to the cordite and hot weather - I hear you loud and clear. Too, a number of them simply "Let Go".

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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AFRO408
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Re: 450-400 Jeffery in a Martini? [Re: FATBOY404]
      #183038 - 03/06/11 07:41 AM

Quote:

You gunsmiths cant leave "well enough alone" can you ?.

Neat idea and good work mate.





Hehehehe. Nope.

--------------------
Flinch ? Wot flinch ? Gunsmithing is my PASSION.


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450_Ackley
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Re: 450-400 Jeffery in a Martini? [Re: AFRO408]
      #183130 - 06/06/11 06:14 PM

We saw AFRO's handiwork on Sunday, the takedown system is very well done and seems to work perfectly, the rifle and it's owner can certainly shoot as well.

Well done Tony, and Thanks for coming to the shoot, your company was enjoyed.

Regards,
David.


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AFRO408
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Re: 450-400 Jeffery in a Martini? [Re: 450_Ackley]
      #183132 - 06/06/11 07:54 PM

Thanks David,

Mate, that target you shot with the 12 bore gun was astounding. You should win the postal with that one for sure.

I thoroughly enjoyed myself out there.
It was well and safely run mate with plenty of room on the firing line for multiple disciplines.
I was quite pleased at how accurate the 450-400 was, but I didn't like the poor ignition with a couple. Won't happen when I get the wool wads in.
It seems that I still can use open sights, coming third in the Rook & Rabbit rifle event. I was happy with that as it was the first outing for me with the old Cadet.

Cheers,
Tony

--------------------
Flinch ? Wot flinch ? Gunsmithing is my PASSION.


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FATBOY404
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Re: 450-400 Jeffery in a Martini? [Re: AFRO408]
      #183134 - 06/06/11 07:59 PM

Who would of thought that single shots were still "competitive" hey.

Well shot with open sights Tony and as David said it was good to see you away from work.

Cheers Neale.

--------------------
"WHATEVER BLOWS YOUR HAIR BACK"


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AFRO408
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Re: 450-400 Jeffery in a Martini? [Re: FATBOY404]
      #183209 - 07/06/11 07:07 PM

The shoot went well, on Sunday, but it had a bit of trouble with poor ignition a couple of times. The rounds were stored upside down and there is a little more than half a case of AR 2207 ( IMR 4227 ) behind the PB 310g wheel weight alloy bullet.
The targets we were shooting at were charging elephant, three of them set one each at 75,50 & 25yds. You had to fire 6 shots in 35 seconds placing two in each target, starting with the 75yd one.
One shot was delayed a half a second and missed the target altogether, the other one failed to fire and stuck the bullet about 2" up in the bore.
I dismantled the rifle and got the stuck bullet out quickly and the Range Officer kindly let me shoot the match again. On my own, with about 20 witnesses. :-(
I stood the rounds upright on the bench and loaded them with the rifle pointed at the sky. They worked this time and I got the required six shots off in 32 seconds, scoring a 9, an 8 and a 9.
I'm waiting on some pure wool wads to arrive and will be using them in the next loads. I have tried a slower powder ( to get more in the case ) but it doesn't burn properly, leaving lots of debris.
I had to fit a lower front sight to the rifle, as it was shooting about a foot low at 50m.

This one is brass, with a 45deg forward sloping face, to catch the light and is 2.5mm lower than the original.
The barrel was made by Sprinter Arms in South Australia and is CrMo, .410 groove dia, with a 16" twist, 24" long.
The butt stock design is going to be very simple and just copy the old one with a good Pachmayer old English pad. The forearm will be fairly slim and short, in keeping with the period. Oil finished with some nice subdued checkering. All metal work will be Rust blued and I plan on getting some simple engraving done on it as well.

Cheers,
Afro

--------------------
Flinch ? Wot flinch ? Gunsmithing is my PASSION.

Edited by CptCurl (14/06/11 09:18 PM)


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450_Ackley
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Re: 450-400 Jeffery in a Martini? [Re: AFRO408]
      #183411 - 11/06/11 07:35 AM

AFRO,
Can you please tell me where the wool wads are coming from?
Might have a use for them in a friends 348 Winchester with some cast bullet loads.

DC


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AFRO408
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Re: 450-400 Jeffery in a Martini? [Re: 450_Ackley]
      #183421 - 11/06/11 10:20 AM

DC, Jim Allison is handling them here in Oz.
I've ordered a large bag, so I could send you some to try first.

Afro

--------------------
Flinch ? Wot flinch ? Gunsmithing is my PASSION.


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450_Ackley
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Re: 450-400 Jeffery in a Martini? [Re: AFRO408]
      #183423 - 11/06/11 10:30 AM

AFRO,
That would be great, are they calibre specific or a one size fits all?

DC


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tophet1
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Re: 450-400 Jeffery in a Martini? [Re: 450_Ackley]
      #183428 - 11/06/11 11:01 AM

This is where they come from.

http://www.beavergrease.co.nz/Wads.html

There is a definant lanolin smell after they are fired.


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: 450-400 Jeffery in a Martini? [Re: AFRO408]
      #183463 - 11/06/11 10:19 PM

Quote:

The targets we were shooting at were charging elephant, three of them set one each at 75,50 & 25yds. You had to fire 6 shots in 35 seconds placing two in each target, starting with the 75yd one.




OT, but I got to say BGRC elephant sure charge at a slow pace!

Nice project. Like the takedown feature.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


Edited by NitroX (13/06/11 07:51 PM)


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: 450-400 Jeffery in a Martini? [Re: NitroX]
      #183570 - 13/06/11 07:53 PM

I'm intrigued to see what the finished rifle will look like.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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AFRO408
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Re: 450-400 Jeffery in a Martini? [Re: NitroX]
      #183859 - 16/06/11 04:22 PM

I was around at my old mate Danny's place to wish him well with his back operation and said I was looking for a nice bit of Walnut for my Martini takedown ( he's got a few slabs in his shed ) and he showed me this lovely piece.
Well, I couldn't say no, could I.
It's now mine


I should be able to get both the butt and forearm from it.

Afro

Edited by CptCurl (20/06/11 08:53 PM)


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CHAPUISARMES
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Re: 450-400 Jeffery in a Martini? [Re: AFRO408]
      #183860 - 16/06/11 04:24 PM

Hi Afro,

I can see why, lovely grain for sure..

Cheers,

Jeff Gray

.


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FATBOY404
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Re: 450-400 Jeffery in a Martini? [Re: CHAPUISARMES]
      #183862 - 16/06/11 04:54 PM

It will look a "picture" for sure when its finnishd.

Look forward to the finnished rifle mate.

--------------------
"WHATEVER BLOWS YOUR HAIR BACK"


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BillfromOregon
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Re: 450-400 Jeffery in a Martini? [Re: FATBOY404]
      #185015 - 02/07/11 01:18 AM

Must ... see ... completed ... rifle!

By the way, I had a Greener Martini in 577 3-inch BPE. DD now has it in Montana.


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Ben
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Re: 450-400 Jeffery in a Martini? [Re: BillfromOregon]
      #186321 - 22/07/11 08:20 PM

TTT

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mehulkamdar
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Re: 450-400 Jeffery in a Martini? [Re: FATBOY404]
      #199220 - 12/01/12 10:09 AM

Coming along magnificently! You, sir, are a genius! Thank you for the pictures which are addictive and will keep me (and a lot of others) visiting this thread regularly!

--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

Mehul Kamdar


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Rule303
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Re: 450-400 Jeffery in a Martini? [Re: AFRO408]
      #199282 - 12/01/12 09:50 PM

Afro it looks like this project is comming along nicely.

Looking forward to seeing the final result, should be great.


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AFRO408
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Re: 450-400 Jeffery in a Martini? [Re: Rule303]
      #199320 - 13/01/12 07:48 AM

I guess I'll have to pull my finger out and get on with it, eh.

--------------------
Flinch ? Wot flinch ? Gunsmithing is my PASSION.


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eljefedouble
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Re: 450-400 Jeffery in a Martini? [Re: AFRO408]
      #205838 - 23/03/12 11:01 PM

been a few months now...

--------------------
"it dont mean a thing, if it aint got no zing"
"Toa bunduki mkubwa"


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AFRO408
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Re: 450-400 Jeffery in a Martini? [Re: eljefedouble]
      #210820 - 13/06/12 01:46 PM

...yes, it has been a few months, but it's finally finished.





It did indeed turn out to be a beautiful piece of wood.
I'm pleased.

--------------------
Flinch ? Wot flinch ? Gunsmithing is my PASSION.

Edited by CptCurl (13/06/12 08:47 PM)


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Matabele
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Re: 450-400 Jeffery in a Martini? [Re: AFRO408]
      #210821 - 13/06/12 04:28 PM

Beautiful rifle there mate, excellent job! The takedown idea and calibre are very cool!!

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kamilaroi
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Re: 450-400 Jeffery in a Martini? [Re: Matabele]
      #210822 - 13/06/12 04:58 PM

From the layout and figure it's very much "Pommy wood" as they called it in the trade.

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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: 450-400 Jeffery in a Martini? [Re: kamilaroi]
      #210829 - 13/06/12 08:48 PM

Splendid! Any reports on how it shoots? Any hunting tales?

Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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AFRO408
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Re: 450-400 Jeffery in a Martini? [Re: kamilaroi]
      #210832 - 13/06/12 09:37 PM

Quote:

From the layout and figure it's very much "Pommy wood" as they called it in the trade.




Don't know about that. It's Turkish Walnut, I'm told. It is nice though, eh.

Cap'n. It's been blooded on some pigs, a few months ago, while it was in the unfinished state.
This is the first group I shot with it.

Rolling my own.

Pix of the pigs I shot with it.




I thought I posted a hunting story, with it included, on here, but I can't find it.

--------------------
Flinch ? Wot flinch ? Gunsmithing is my PASSION.


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