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500grains
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Is the current double craze just a fad?
      #16306 - 29/06/04 01:35 AM


Demand for double rifles is at an all-time high, with many rough and beat up old guns bringing outrageous prices, and many double rifle builders are taking orders up to 2 years in advance.

It seems to me that the market for doubles will have difficulty remaining this strong for the long term. Any opinions?


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bonanza50
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Re: Is the current double craze just a fad? [Re: 500grains]
      #16307 - 29/06/04 02:56 AM

Here is what I think. You have the likes of Merkel, Kreighof, Blaser, Chapius and Sercy building very high quality new guns and very reasonable prices (less than $10k). Those prices in relation to current incomes and other "toys" like motor cycles, boats, and light planes; owning a double becomes feasible for those who would have NEVER considered buying one but have always lusted for one. Like me.

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mehulkamdar
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Re: Is the current double craze just a fad? [Re: 500grains]
      #16558 - 11/07/04 01:04 AM

500 grains,

As someone who is only an interested amateur as far as guns are concerned and cannot afford a double rifle at all, this is my 2c. I have never liked hard kicking rifles and have always hunted with small rifles and 12 bore shotguns but the romance of a double rifle fascinates me. If I could afford one, and I hope to save money for a couple of years to buy a lower end one (as my present Non Resident Indian status allows me to buy guns and bring them back to India when I return as a Returning Resident) not for anything but the fact that it is a superb hunting tool and it would give me many years of happiness just looking at it as well as add a little spice to the pigs I hunt with it.

I guess we hunt only for a small fraction of the time that we own our guns and that is where the pleasure of owning a double would make much more sense than owning a practical, hard as nails bolt action in stainless steel with a Kevlar stock or something of the sort. I presume all those people who have placed orders on doubles forward ordering them into the next half decade think the way that average guys like me do.

Good hunting!

--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

Mehul Kamdar


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Peterb
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Re: Is the current double craze just a fad? [Re: 500grains]
      #16574 - 11/07/04 02:32 PM

It is only a fad which shouldn't last more than a couple hundred years.

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Is the current double craze just a fad? [Re: Peterb]
      #16584 - 12/07/04 01:16 AM

In reply to:

Poster: Peterb

Subject: Re: Is the current double craze just a fad?


It is only a fad which shouldn't last more than a couple hundred years.






Droll very droll.



--------------------
John aka NitroX

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Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
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Rusty
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Re: Is the current double craze just a fad? [Re: 500grains]
      #16599 - 12/07/04 10:16 AM

Peterb,
Well said sir!

As long as there are hunters there will be a demand for double rifles! I personally think that the availability of brass that was once no available is a big factor in the resurgence of folks shooting doubles. Who wants a rifle they can't find brass for?

In an hundred years, a double rifle will still be a specific tool for a specific job and there will be folks like us who want to own one. You will never be able to justify buying one, but then again, when did that ever stop us?

My ultimate turkey rifle would be a double rifle in 22 Hornet. Tapered, rimmed case, perfect for a double rifle.

I do see a short term problem with brass. The folks at MAST Technology that were making BeLL brass have sold their machines to a fellow named Jameison. I do not think he inteds to make Nitro Express brass. While there are some others making brass for the Nitros, the loss of Mast and BeLL will impact the market. Just my opine!

--------------------
Rusty
We band of brothers!

DRSS


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Peterb
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Re: Is the current double craze just a fad? [Re: Rusty]
      #16638 - 13/07/04 09:32 AM

My new one should see a lot of work. It is a Searcy 470 Nitro (what caliber could be more classic) PLUS it has an extra set of 12 Ga barrels with inserts. Chukars MUST die! They are vicious creatures out to give all us ol fat guys heart attacks, but they have one fatal flaw::::: They are all white meat!

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Rusty
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Re: Is the current double craze just a fad? [Re: Peterb]
      #16642 - 13/07/04 10:23 AM

Damn Peterb,
I shot my first Chukar a couple of years ago on Kona and man was he good eating! I agree they do make it tough on us old fat guys!

BTW congrats on your Searcy!



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Rusty
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DUGABOY1
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Re: Is the current double craze just a fad? [Re: 500grains]
      #16770 - 16/07/04 03:08 AM

500, I don't think the double rifle's popularity is a fad, now, anymore than it was 100 yrs ago! True, it has had periods of being only a curiosity in some collection. That fact however was not because the double rifle wasn't a viable hunting rifle, but that the componants needed to shoot it were not available! The lack of ammo was due to a ruined ecconomy of the largest segment of buyers of doubles,the English, by two wars, causeing a loss of interest in hunting Africa.

Always when ammo was available, these rifles were sought after by those who hunt dangerous game. The old doubles that are in the field today did not just appear, but were here all along. If they had been a fad, they would have been bored out to make shotguns from them when the ammo became unavailable. Once the ammo, and componants became available, these old hunters came out of those gun safes, and went back into the hunting fields.

The disbanding of MAST IND is bad news, and will be a drag on the double rifle market if someone else doesn't use the equipment to keep the old NEs shooting. The NEW double manufacturers will simply start makeing their rifles in more available chamberings, but that bodes ill for the old NE doubles. FAD, it isn't, but many things that are not simply fad, are suddenly discontinued at the whim of the bean counters of the world, and replaced by things that are not equal, but cheaper to make. Even if all use is lost for these fine hunting rifles, they will not disapear simply because, the fact is, they are NOT A FAD , and never were! The double rifle is the only firearm in the world, that was designed for only one purpose, and that is hunting game animals! All others were origenally designed for fighting wars, or target shooting, and were simply addapted to hunting.






--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"


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k80
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Re: Is the current double craze just a fad? [Re: DUGABOY1]
      #16835 - 17/07/04 12:00 PM

Very well stated. I had not considered
the non military aspect. In this day of
"assault" rifle concerns by some, it is
a point not to be overlooked both socially
and politicly.

Ken
San Antonio

--------------------
Ken
San Antonio

Welcome to South Texas


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Is the current double craze just a fad? [Re: Peterb]
      #16839 - 17/07/04 01:55 PM

Congratulations on your fine new double.

I think a set of shotgun barrels is a great way to really get to know ones double rifle as it is possible to shoot many thousands of shotgun shells in a hunting career but how many of us, except maybe NE450No2 ever even shoot a thousand rounds through our doubles. And if we did we are wearing the "old girls" out. I wish I could get a set of shotgun barrels for one of mine and have! Unfortunately it will not be a side by side but an under and over.



--------------------
John aka NitroX

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Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
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470Rigby
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Re: Is the current double craze just a fad? [Re: DUGABOY1]
      #16840 - 17/07/04 02:22 PM

The British Gunakers' double rifle trade was essentially underwritten by the Indian rulers up to the start of WW2. Sure, some wealthy Englishmen bought doubles to take out to the Colonies when taking up civil service postings. I'm not sure of the figures, but at a guess, I'd say 80 percent of the British doubles in circulation now would have come out of India. After the war, the Indian rulers just didn't have the readies to resume their former lifestyles of opulence, and the Indian Government with the withdrawal of their priviledges certainly put paid to any aspirations they might have had. Besides, the gunmaking skills just were'nt available after the war, and half the British Gunmakers were bombed out of existence anyway.

Sure, hunting was banned in places like Kenya, but IMO, Africa was never a major destination for doubles, and neither was ammunition for them, since magazine rifles were more in vogue there due to the more limited means of Game Departments, and the few sportsmen that hunted there in the years immediately following the war.

The Indian rulers had known no such financial limitations, but their post-war demise and limitations placed on them by the Indian Arms Act was eventually the death knell for Kynoch, and with that came the "near death" experience for doubles.

Curiously, it was India that led to the resurgence of Doubles, when Jim Bell (Bell Brass) and another Aussie guy went there as Peace Corps worker(s) in the 1970's and were given doubles by former rulers that had no use for them.

Jim Bell, finding that ammo was scarce went into the casemaking business, and due to the importation of rifles by the Aussie to Australia, local interest was kindled, ultimately leading to Geoff McDonald starting up Woodleigh bullets.

The rest, as they say, is history.


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Peterb
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Re: Is the current double craze just a fad? [Re: NitroX]
      #16847 - 18/07/04 01:47 AM

Of course, there will be a difference in feel and balance between the two as the weight will be different. However, the fit and design will be the same. I'll be used to the grip and trigger placement and mounting characteristics. The most important thing will be the fancy wood (I am a wood dealer ) It will have a full Winchester feather out of colorful Oregon seed English. This makes all the difference in accuracy. Buff will simply expire at the sight of it, I am sure.

As for chukar, they must DIE! I have a perfect hunting place for them. There is a rimrock outcropping at the end of a looonnng plateau. It is about 20' high and one can walk the base of it over a high canyon. It bends away from you gradually for about 1/2 mile. In the late afternoon when they are around before roosting time, you blast away then pick up your birds. They flush down but then come back up around 75 yards away and out of sight. The finding of the dead birds takes a bit as the backs caouflage to the color of the volcanic rock, and the breasts camouflage to the color of the Fall cheat grass. But then as you continue around the bluff, you are again into the birds and this continues for the entire 1/2 mile of limit of birds...and...no verticle walking. Then it is time to drive to the bottom of the canyon for ducks, geese, fishing, and the natural hot pools at the end of the day. Life is hard!


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470Rigby
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Re: Is the current double craze just a fad? [Re: DUGABOY1]
      #16848 - 18/07/04 01:51 AM

In reply to:

The double rifle is the only firearm in the world, that was designed for only one purpose, and that is hunting game animals!




Some years back, I remember seeing an unusual 4-groove percussion double rifle with long-range sights, and at the time, wondered about it's origins. The owner described it as a "Jacobs Patent" and was convinced it had come from India and had been made for military use. To me, the long range sights seemed to indicate that it was not intended for hunting, but it could have been for target shooting?

I knew that Jacobs had offered his rifling design to the Indian Army in 1846, but it was rejected in favour of the Brunswick rifle, which was in service with the British Army. But, none of the references I had indicated whether the design offered was single, or double barreled.

Some years later, I came across a reference in W.W. Greener's book, "The Gun and It's Development, 9th Edition" about Jacob's developments. Curiously, there was no mention of this in Greeners 1st Edition of 1881, which I had originally checked!

It describes how, after being rejected by the Indian Army, and a period experimenting with the Minie bullet, Jacobs went on to develop a double-barrel 32 bore four-grooved rifle with deep grooves and 4/5 turn in 24 inches that was sighted up to 2000 yards with leaf and tangent sights.

This rifle was designed for military use! And it matched the description of the rifle I had seen!

This pre-dated Purdey's Express rifles which did not appear until the mid-1850's and then originally in single barrel guise.

Certainly, ball was shot out of double-barreled "smoothbores" from very early on, but insofar as rifles go, I am not aware of any evidence that indicates one way or another that the first double-barreled rifles were designed for hunting, target shooting, or military use?

Does anybody know for sure???


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DUGABOY1
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Re: Is the current double craze just a fad? [Re: 470Rigby]
      #16849 - 18/07/04 03:53 AM

In reply to:

In reply to:MAC
The double rifle is the only firearm in the world, that was designed for only one purpose, and that is hunting game animals!





In reply to:

470Rigby:> It describes how, after being rejected by the Indian Army, and a period experimenting with the Minie bullet, Jacobs went on to develop a double-barrel 32 bore four-grooved rifle with deep grooves and 4/5 turn in 24 inches that was sighted up to 2000 yards with leaf and tangent sights.

This rifle was designed for military use! And it matched the description of the rifle I had seen!

This pre-dated Purdey's Express rifles which did not appear until the mid-1850's and then originally in single barrel guise.

Certainly, ball was shot out of double-barreled "smoothbores" from very early on, but insofar as rifles go, I am not aware of any evidence that indicates one way or another that the first double-barreled rifles were designed for hunting, target shooting, or military use?

Does anybody know for sure???




I think, Just like the war weapons were addapted to hunting, some double rifle were addapted to war, though not as many! The fact that long range sights were installed on a double is no indication it was for war. Contrary to popular belief, double rifles are quite accurate at extremely long range! Many were set up with a very long range ladder sight that was for only one barrel. I have an 1892 period Westley Richards that has a left barrel sight for 300 yds, with Metford rifleing, which was very popular in target rifles of the day, and I'll guarintee you it is not a war weapon, but a Europian "DEER RIFLE" chambered for 500/450#1 Express.

Though I can't prove it, it is my opinion the double rifle was first used for hunting of large game giving more than one shot, because the reload was so slow with the front loaders. This was why the predecessor of the double rifle, was the double shotgun. It was so animals did not escape as easily, and gave some security on larger animals like Moose, and Bears of Europe, that required more than one shot, usually!

If you look at any reference on war weapons you will not find a double rifle in it, with the exception of the short barreled doubles that used a combination of shot, and ball in the same load, simular to the coach guns of Engalnd, and France! (so-called blunderbuss)



--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"


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NE450No2
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Re: Is the current double craze just a fad? [Re: DUGABOY1]
      #16859 - 18/07/04 12:37 PM

Speaking of long range shooting with doubles, my 450/400 3 1/4" Nitro Express Magnum has a fixed sight marked 50 yards and folding leaves marked 100,200,300 and 400 yards.
The left barrel is marked "THE SIGHTS ARE ACCURATE FOR THIS BARREL TO 400 YARDS"
The right barrel is marked "THIS BARREL IS ACCURATE WITH LEFT TO 50 YARDS".
I have shot the rifle on my 200 yard rock with good results. I killed a caribou with it at 150 to 175 yards. I guess I need to shoot it on paper at 300 and 400 yards to test out the makers statement.


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470Rigby
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Re: Is the current double craze just a fad? [Re: DUGABOY1]
      #16865 - 18/07/04 11:53 PM

In reply to:

If you look at any reference on war weapons you will not find a double rifle in it




From the proceedings of the South African Military History Society, here is one such reference for verification;

Jacobs Rifle

The relevent extract, quote;

"The subject of curtain raiser at the 13 March lecture meeting was the Jacob Rifle. The speaker, Terry Willson, has mentioned before the double-barrelled, muzzle-loading military carbine. This time he concentrated on how its development and history was influenced by the personality and circumstances of its inventor, Brigadier John Jacob, of the British East India Company's Army in the decade prior to the Indian Mutiny of 1875.
As commander of the Scinde Irregular Horse, Jacob had become increasingly frustrated with the inferior weapons issued to his Indian cavalrymen. Being a wealthy man, he spent many years and much money on developing the perfect weapon for his 'sowars'. He eventually produced the rifle that bears his name. It could be sighted to 2 000 yards (1 830m), and fire explosive bullets designed to destroy artillery limbers. It also sported a 30 inch (76,2cm) bayonet based on the Scottish claymore.

Jacob was an opinionated man who chose to ignore changing trends in firearm development, and he adopted a pattern of rifling that was both obsolete and troublesome. Nevertheless, his influence was such that during the Mutiny he was permitted to arm a new regiment with his design of carbine. It was named Jacob's Rifles.

Orders for the manufacture of the carbine and bayonet were placed in Britain, and all was set for its demonstration when Jacob died. In the hope the East India Company would honour the order, production continued for over a year. But the Jacob Rifle was never issued in India. After the Mutiny Indian troops were always armed with weapons inferior to those issued to British soldiers.

The carbines were eventually sold off as sporting rifles. The bayonets were bought by certain volunteer regiments for use as side arms. The only lasting influence of the Jacob 'weapons system' was in the design of sporting ammunition, where explosive bullets of Jacob's design were used against large game for a further 20 years."



One small but important error though, and it appears to be a "typo", the Indian Mutiny was in 1857, NOT 1875!

This puts Jacobs' development in the 1840's, well before the introduction of Purdey's percussion Express Rifles, which were for hunting purposes.


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4seventy
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Re: Is the current double craze just a fad? [Re: 500grains]
      #16892 - 19/07/04 05:20 PM

In reply to:

Demand for double rifles is at an all-time high, with many rough and beat up old guns bringing outrageous prices, and many double rifle builders are taking orders up to 2 years in advance.

It seems to me that the market for doubles will have difficulty remaining this strong for the long term. Any opinions?




To be honest I think that it is to a degree a fad.
If doubles are right for the person they will most likely stay with them but I believe quite a lot of new buyers will only play for a short while.
Doubles are not everyones cup of tea.
It takes a certain amount of devotion and some "would be doublers" may not be prepared to put in the effort in the long term.
But then again as some drop out, maybe there will be enough newcomers to keep the fad going.


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500NE
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Re: Is the current double craze just a fad? [Re: NitroX]
      #16905 - 20/07/04 01:21 AM

I also was considering for a *very* long time if I should get shotgun barrels for my Krieghoff for add. training and familiarity.

After much thought and endless hours of discussions with my buddies (my red wine depot really took a hit back then ) I finally decided against it for the following reasons:

- Cost, (just short of 2K euro's from Krieghoff)
One can get *a lot* of reloading done for that amount, even w/ 500NE, besides for real double rifle training, one would have to shoot slugs from the shotgun barrels, and those aren't exactly cheap either

- Lack of balance:
Compare the wall thickness of a 500NE barrel to a 20gauge! Since the weight distribution of the rifle is made for balance with the rifle barrels, the balance w/ shotgun barrels is bound to be horrible!

So for my part, I'd rather reload...!



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bonanza
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Re: Is the current double craze just a fad? [Re: 500grains]
      #16923 - 20/07/04 05:44 AM

All I can say is: I'm a convert to doubles (shotgun and rifle) and I'm not going back. I did keep my Rem 700 MM mag left hand. It was a gift from my dad.

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Peterb
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Re: Is the current double craze just a fad? [Re: 500NE]
      #16926 - 20/07/04 07:13 AM

That double rifle is quite muzzle heavy so the lighter shotgun barrels would be quite an improvement. The Blaser has weight added to the stock to balance the rifle barrels. These are removed for shotgunning. I don't know if the other Euro double rifles are similar in that regard.

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DUGABOY1
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Re: Is the current double craze just a fad? [Re: 470Rigby]
      #16961 - 21/07/04 06:37 AM


In reply to:

"The subject of curtain raiser at the 13 March lecture meeting was the Jacob Rifle. The speaker, Terry Willson, has mentioned before the double-barrelled, muzzle-loading military carbine. This time he concentrated on how its development and history was influenced by the personality and circumstances of its inventor, Brigadier John Jacob, of the British East India Company's Army in the decade prior to the Indian Mutiny of 1875.




I yeald to the mention of a double rifle in a millitary referance. However, the double rifle was in evidence long before 1875. This is what I meant by a hunting rifles being addapted to war use, the same way all, or at least, many war rifles were addapted to hunting. It is evident, the system did not lend it's self to war well, and so was not accepted, and were sold as sporting rifles, instead.

Many of the frontier trappers, and mountain men, of the American west, used swivel barreled, O/U double rifles, made on the Kentucky long rifle pattern, (actually not Kentucky at all, but Pinnsilvania rifles,but used first in the Kentucky wilderness). Even though these rifles were used , in some cases to fight the British regulars in the revolutionary war, they were simply hunting rifles, pressed into service because the owner had nothing else! Seems to have worked!

--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"


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470Rigby
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Re: Is the current double craze just a fad? [Re: DUGABOY1]
      #17036 - 22/07/04 10:57 PM

In reply to:

O/U double rifles, made on the Kentucky long rifle pattern, (actually not Kentucky at all, but Pinnsilvania rifles,but used first in the Kentucky wilderness). Even though these rifles were used , in some cases to fight the British regulars in the revolutionary war




I would be interested to know what type of rifling was employed in these weapons?

The earliest descriptive references I can find to rifling was that by the Frenchman Delvigne in 1826. This is 50 odd years after the American War of Independence!

The British did not adopt the Brunswick rifle until 1836, which was a complete failure for military purposes, even though it was successfully used by Purdey 20 years later for sporting rifles.

Spurred on by the abject failure of unrifled muskets in the Kaffir Wars in South Africa 1n 1846 where it was estimated that it took 3,200 rounds to disable a Kaffir, the British finally adopted the Minie rifling system in 1851.

One wonders why they it took 75 years or so after encountering these Pennsylvania rifles, for them, and the rest of the world to devise workable rifling?

BTW - as I noted in my post, the Indian Mutiny was in 1857, and the Jacob Double barreled rifle was developed during the 1840's. It was not given to Indian Army "Sowars" ("Native" Troops), because after the Mutiny, the British did not trust them enough to give them weapons that were superior to what was issued to the British Army.

As to why the concept was not apparently taken up by other Armies, there can only be conjecture.

If I may indulge in some; the cost must have been very high - the example I have seen was made to a very high standard. I understand they were made by George Daw, an English maker of very high grade sporting guns.

The fact that they were not finally issued for military use, does not neccesarily say anything about their suitablity for that purpose, but what cannot be denied is that they were DESIGNED for military use.

Their popularity when sold off for sporting use, may just have been the genesis of the sporting double rifle as we know it today, derived as it is from British origins?


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mickey
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Re: Is the current double craze just a fad? [Re: 470Rigby]
      #17159 - 25/07/04 12:40 PM

In reply to:

The earliest references I can find to rifling was that by the Frenchman Delvigne in 1826. This is 50 odd years after the American War of Independence!

The British did not adopt the Brunswick rifle until 1836, which was a complete failure for military purposes, even though it was successfully used by Purdey 20 years later for sporting rifles.

Spurred on by the abject failure of unrifled muskets in the Kaffir Wars in South Africa 1n 1846 where it was estimated that it took 3,200 rounds to disable a Kaffir, the British finally adopted the Minie rifling system in 1851.

One wonders why they it took 75 years or so after encountering these Pennsylvania rifles, for them, and the rest of the world to devise workable rifling?




While at a local gunshow today I found an O/U muzzleloader with 'mule ear' hammers. It is a 40 caliber smoothbore, sights to 300 yards. It was made in Philidelphia, PA and the owner says it was late 1700's.

I have no way of knowing but the rifle appears to be a flintlock that has been modified to accept percussion caps.

He also has an O/U shotgun and rifle combo. A muzzleloader, also from PA., Lancaster. This appears to have always been a percussion gun.

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.


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470Rigby
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Reged: 23/02/04
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Re: Is the current double craze just a fad? [Re: mickey]
      #17165 - 25/07/04 03:20 PM

Mickey

In reply to:

It is a 40 caliber smoothbore



and
In reply to:

the rifle appears to be a flintlock




.......was it a rifle or a smoothbore ??

I have read of references to "rifles" used by American "Backwoodsmen" going back to 1750, and military units such as the "Royal Americans"???, using them. Also, references to rifles, based on the German Jaeger rifle introduced by gunsmiths of German descent located in Lancaster, Pennsylvania from around 1800 that led to the Hawken and Plains' rifles in about 1819 when their descendents in turn moved east to St. Louis and Denver.

But, I have never come across any references to the rifling and projectile systems used. I had concluded that this was simply loose terminology at work, and these weapons were in fact smoothbores?? I am happy to stand corrected here??

Rifled military weapons do not seem to have entered the scene in North America until the advent of the Harpers Ferry .62 cal muzzle-loading flintlock rifle in 1817 when it was adopted by the United States Army, but these were single barrelled affairs, and again thsere seems to be little known about the rifling system and it's efficacy.

It is interesting to note that Europeans have always held that double-barreled "weapons" were unsporting for game such as ibex, chamois, and deer and it can thus be assumed that they cannot be factored into any role in their development for sporting purposes.

This leaves the British and North Americans as potential originators of the double barreled rifle Maybe it's a moot point, as is their original purpose, but I think something worth getting to the bottom of??



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